Bombing the Reich

[Chief_Mouser]

I liked the crane topic and there was no reason at all to lock it. So here's a link to the Liebherr site https://www.liebherr.com/en/gbr/about-liebherr/history/1949-1960.html where the invention of the mobile tower crane in 1949 is documented.

Cheers.

[Rolling_Thunder]

I'd be all for the heavies over the Reich. As for simulating bombing civilians meh. I don't even think about civilians when playing a game because they're not there. If there were millions of civilians modeled it probably would cross my mind but they're not. Factories were full of slave labour, if they were modeled I'd still bomb them. It's a game, nobody is getting hurt, it's pixels. If somebody gets a kick out of the thought of killing civilians in a video game they will be playing GTA not BoS.

[hames123]

Yes, in flight sims, we play as airmen, who generally have a nice clean war, high up in the clouds. Completely different to what a soldier on the ground would see and experience(there is a pretty good shooter set in Stalingrad known as Red Orchestra 2, just be prepared to die alot learning to play, even the most experienved get gunned down all over the place). And while I want the Luftwaffe doing more ground attack(the VVS does a great job at this), the pilots would never see the destruction they were causing. All they would see is a column of tanks/trucks/halftracks and release their bombs, and maybe look back and see vehicles on fire. But they would never see the injured and dead stuck in the trucks.

Edited February 14, 2017 by hames123

[Chief_Mouser]

...and here's a picture of a B-17 being lifted by two cranes. Enjoy!

 

[hames123]

But... Why?

[Y-29.Silky]

No thanks.

 

Personally I hope, that after 1-2 Pacific installments, this sim will return to the Russian steppes to finish off the Eastern Front.

 

Either that or a Mediterranean sim.

 

BTW: The strategic (daytime) bombing of Germany has been covered by many flight sims over the years, just not recently.

 

I'm appalled at these responses. 

 

Keeping IL-2 at 2 fronts will certainly kill the game

 

BTW --- What flight sims are you talking about? Because last time I checked, it was Janes WWII Fighters back in 1998. 

 

-----------------------------------------------

 

And to say we shouldnt add the B-17 because it would "take forever" is just selective biased. Apparently if you add a B-17 you're forced to fly it formally with an 8 hour sortie, because only He-111's can circle the airfield to 4000m and go bomb it's target on it's two 1942 engines. And if you want to  be hardcore realistic about it, technically He-111's should be taking off from Tatsinskaya to make the flight to Stalingrad an hour alone in those "boring formations".

If this game doesn't go on the Western Front sooner or later, this sim will die. Eastern Front is a smaller niche within a niche. If this game doesn't go on the Western Front sooner or later, this sim will die. Eastern Front is a smaller niche within a niche, especially after 15 years of it.

 

 

But of course, that's not the disgusting life and death slaughter that took place over the German cities.  

 

 

Meanwhile He-111's flattened the whole city of Stalingrad on Black Sunday.

Edited February 14, 2017 by Y-29.Silky

[Ace_Pilto]

...and here's a picture of a B-17 being lifted by two cranes. Enjoy!

 

 

Let me guess, some drunken frat boys threw it in the campus swimming pool and it got waterlogged? It takes TWO cranes to get them out.

[Scojo]

If this game doesn't go on the Western Front sooner or later, this sim will die.

I hear this on forums for EVERY SINGLE game I play. Those games are still going. This community will keep this game going. Yes you will eventually need to move to the Western front, but that would only be necessary after recreating everything that's worth recreating in the Pacific and Eastern front.... That's a LONG ways out and at that point, I would agree with you.

 

You have a good counter point about the B-17s not needing to fly the full 8-X hour long sortie.

 

Don't get me wrong, I really want to see a B-17 in an updated Sim, but I just hope they don't rush the Eastern and Pacific theatres for it or put that on pause to create a hodge podge small scenario game addon for it.

 

If they do it, I say wait until after the Pacific and Eastern front are fully done so they can put all their effort in it to really make it feel as good as possible

[Bearcat]

I have had to edit 18 posts in this 3 page thread with most of those posts being made by one person. 

 

 

 

KNOCK IT OFF.

[Ace_Pilto]

Yes, thanks for the Janet and John history lesson but I'm already aware, and have been for some years now, that the SS had it's own rank titles.  That's why I said Himmler wasn't a general, and I stick by that comment.  A Reichsfuhrer-SS isn't a general and neither for that matter is it a field marshal.

 

On a side note Reichsfuhrer-SS is a rank that, given the hybrid military/paramilitary structure of the SS, has some basis for equivalency with that of a general or, more specifically, a supreme commander of any branch of an armed forces who is more involved in the executive branches and policy making roles than that of battlefield strategy. The Waffen SS (and the paramilitary branches) did have generals who held the rank of Obergruppenführer, which is more precise equivalent to the rank of General in a conventional army as we understand the role in a conventional military sense. That should clarify things a little anyway.

 

I'm sorry to get sidetracked but the SS is a very interesting organisation to me, from an academic perspective that doesn't involve (nor provides an apologists platform for) the various barbarisms so inherently associated with it. You'd be surprised (and probably alarmed) by how many organisations throughout history have and continue to mimic or strongly resemble the kind of proto-state structure adopted by the SS.

 

It's a system of supplanting democratic integrity that we should all be aware and wary of.

[Feathered_IV]

Im a dedicated bomber..  K/D Ratio does not matter what matter is total Bombage and GK for hours flown.

 

I am high ranked player on the WoL Server sooooo...

 

K\D ratio is everything I reckon.  Anything more than zero is a loss.

[Field-Ops]

I think they would start early in the western time frame, not as early as the battle of britain or africa since Team Fusion is doing that. Maybe to get the ball rolling they would start in Italy to get the initial allied plane set in the game with some unique axis stuff instead of more BF109s that are already in BoS/BoM. Then they could move up the chain with the Spitfires, P51-D, P47-D and P38 vs bf109 G6/G10/K4 and Fw190A8/D9

[hames123]

The first Western Front battle should be the siege of Malta and then the Husky landings, with the same map but different planes. The Siege of Malta would have a Hurricane and a Spitfire as fighters, with a Beufighter as a heavy fighter bomber, and the Beufort as the bomber. The premium plane would be a Swordfish. The main job of the Beufighter, Beufort and Swordfish. would be to attack and sink convoys of supply ships heading to North Africa, as well as sink U-Boats. The fighter would need to defend the island, and later to intercept Ju52s flying to Tunisia and back.

 

The Axus would get a Macchi C 200, another 109 variant, another Ju88 variant and a Ju87 variant, with the premium plane being the SM 79. They would need to protect their convoys to North Africa by escorting the ships, destroying the RAF based at Malta and bombing the submarines and ships of the Royal Navy. They will also need to destroy the Royal Navy convoys to Malta, and to the 8th Army in North Africa.

 

The Operation Husky game would have the same map as the Siege of Malta, with the allies getting another Spitfire, Mustangs, B-25s, Wellingtons and a premium A-20 Havoc, while the Axis would get another 109 variant, another Me110 variant, a Dornier Do 17 and a new Ju87s. The premium plane would be a G 50m

Edited February 16, 2017 by hames123

[Dakpilot]

The first Western Front battle should be the siege of Malta and then the Husky landings, with the same map but different planes. The Siege of Malta would have a Hurricane and a Spitfire as fighters, with a Beufighter as a heavy fighter bomber, and the Beufort as the bomber. The premium plane would be a Swordfish. The main job of the Beufighter, Beufort and Swordfish. would be to attack and sink convoys of supply ships heading to North Africa, as well as sink U-Boats. The fighter would need to defend the island, and later to intercept Ju52s flying to Tunisia and back.

 

The Axus would get a Macchi C 200, another 109 variant, another Ju88 variant and a Ju87 variant, with the premium plane being the SM 79. They would need to protect their convoys to North Africa by escorting the ships, destroying the RAF based at Malta and bombing the submarines and ships of the Royal Navy. They will also need to destroy the Royal Navy convoys to Malta, and to the 8th Army in North Africa.

 

I think there would be a lot of interest in this theatre in BoX style, however I understand that  CLoD and Team Fusion Simulations will be covering this area in future, it will be interesting to see how and at what speed that development will proceed

 

I do understand that duplicate development of a 'theatre' is counterproductive for all regardless of preference, good luck to TF for the future

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[hames123]

I updated my old post to provide ideas for an immediate follow-up game. But before we go there, we should finish the Pacific trio and maybe a Leningrad game. By the time we head West, the technology should have advanced and we will have stuff like massive bomber streams, large ground battles with hundreds of units and all kinds of new features.

[Scojo]

I'd love to fly over Africa in a P-40. My grandfather was a Tech Sergeant in an Army communication unit there before being wounded on the beaches of Sicily in the landings. It would have some sentimental value for me

[hames123]

And TF will never be able to produce a fully fleshed out sim in the way that 1C does, however, they can probably tide us through the 8-9 years before the above battles are simulated.

I'd love to fly over Africa in a P-40. My grandfather was a Tech Sergeant in an Army communication unit there before being wounded on the beaches of Sicily in the landings. It would have some sentimental value for me

That's interesting, my Grandfather narrowly dodged WW2, joining the navy later, and becoming an Officer in first an MTB and then on HMS Anson and HMS Vanguard. My great-grandfather narrowly dodged WW1, serving in the 3rd Anglo-Afgan war in 1919, where he won 2 mentions in dispatches for bravery.

[Ace_Pilto]

Il-2 Battle of Normandy would get me throwing money at my screen.

 

Covering the period of pre-invasion tactical bombing before D-Day, the invasion itself and then the support of the invasion up to the capture of Caen would round out the series so far as iconic aircraft and competitive matchups is concerned. It has the benefit of not requiring the constant presence of heavy bombers in their hundreds but includes many accessible aircraft of all roles.

 

B-25

B-26

A-20

Beaufighter

Mosquito

Typhoon

Tempest

Spitfire

P-38

P-51

P-47

L-5 Stinson

DC-3

Horsa Glider

 

Fw-190

Bf-109

Bf-110

Ju-88 variants (Schnell bomber and night/heavy fighter)

Me-210/410

Me-262

He-111 possibly carrying a V-1 and/or anti shipping missile.

Fieseler Storch.

 

After this you're fairly well set up for the period covering the Arnhem Offensive, the Battle of the Bulge, Bodenplatte and the drive into Germany where you introduce the 109K, 190D and with maybe the Gloster Meteor and Arado Ar 234. It makes me excited just typing it.

Edited February 16, 2017 by Ace_Pilto

[Scojo]

I don't know much about the air war over the landings and the push inward.

 

When did the Allies gain air superiority there? What was CAS like on the western front?

[hames123]

Hunting German tank columns, attacking retreating German units and breaking up counterattacks(the US unit at Mortain was saved when their request for support was met by over 500 Typhoons, which managed to take out 100+ German tanks. If we move later in the war, a unit of 2 men with a Panzerfaust is needed. Hunting them in the hedges of Normandy or the steppes of Russia would be hard(they were often placed along fields, behind building and in depressions).

[Scojo]

Hunting German tank columns, attacking retreating German units and breaking up counterattacks(the US unit at Mortain was saved when their request for support was met by over 500 Typhoons, which managed to take out 100+ German tanks. If we move later in the war, a unit of 2 men with a Panzerfaust is needed. Hunting them in the hedges of Normandy or the steppes of Russia would be hard(they were often placed along fields, behind building and in depressions).

Right but what I'm more so referring to how the missions were for the pilots

 

Was Allied CAS dangerous and in need of constant escort? Were there lots of formations of Axis fighters still patrolling, or were they running thin at this point? Did Axis have many of their own planes available for CAS?

[hames123]

No, German planes were rare by then, most multiplayer missions would be everyone unlimited aircraft for the allies, with 10 190s and 10 Stukas for the Germans. The allied challenge was to kill enough German tanks and AT guns before they could kill the Shermans.

[DD_Arthur]

I don't know much about the air war over the landings and the push inward.

 

When did the Allies gain air superiority there?

 

22nd June, 1941.  There was no daylight air opposition to the Normandy landings worth mentioning.  In the weeks that followed, as the allies pushed forward, the only significant air opposition to the allied landings were from night bombing Ju 88's for the most part.  The targets were road junctions, forward airfields, etc.

 

Forget about dogfighting.

Edited February 16, 2017 by DD_Arthur

[Scojo]

22nd June, 1941.  There was no daylight air opposition to the Normandy landings worth mentioning.  In the weeks that followed, as the allies pushed forward, the only significant air opposition to the allied landings were from night bombing Ju 88's for the most part.  The targets were road junctions, forward airfields, etc.

 

Forget about dogfighting.

Sounds like I would enjoy it as I primarily fly attack, but it doesn't leave much for the majority of players.

 

Unless there's no heed given to the fact that there wasn't significant air opposition from the Axis, which would be ok. I wouldn't mind it serving as a "what if" type setting. Plus the simulation itself doesn't do that anyway, even on the Eastern front. That side of the simulation is all up to the  mission makers anyway

[Feathered_IV]

If it were released as a game, that would probably translate into flocks of 109s circling at 8000m while the allies come in at treetop height to blow the crap out of the Wehrmacht. 

[Finkeren]

If it were released as a game, that would probably translate into flocks of 109s circling at 8000m while the allies come in at treetop height to blow the crap out of the Wehrmacht. 

 

So if we don't look up, it's pretty close to the real deal?

[DD_Arthur]

If it were released as a game, that would probably translate into flocks of 109s circling at 8000m while the allies come in at treetop height to blow the crap out of the Wehrmacht. 

 

DCS WW2?  Where 'planes that never met in combat,  fight air battles that never took place?

[Feathered_IV]

DCS WW2? Where 'planes that never met in combat, fight air battles that never took place?

Shaddup and keep clicking your cockpit. It's all about the realism!!

[Finkeren]

Shaddup and keep clicking your cockpit. It's all about the realism!!

 

True. If you spend all your time looking down at your beautifully recreated dashboard looking for the right switch to flick, then it really doesn't matter, if it was a Bf 109G-6 or Bf 109K-4 that shot you down.

[Ace_Pilto]

Right but what I'm more so referring to how the missions were for the pilots

 

Was Allied CAS dangerous and in need of constant escort? Were there lots of formations of Axis fighters still patrolling, or were they running thin at this point? Did Axis have many of their own planes available for CAS?

 

The Luftwaffe had changed tack at this point.

 

Their doctrine was geared towards intercepting high altitude raids and to pursue this end they withdrew units from France to be able to mass large formations of interceptors ahead of a bomber stream which meant they needed to be based in Holland and Germany. (Which General Doolittle countered by ordering the fighters of the 8th AF to act independently of the bombers and go after the Luftwaffe.) This contraction of forces left occupied France relatively unprotected for a period, they did respond by redeploying their fighters but their attempts to contest the airspace over Normandy truly broke the back of their already attrited air force. At best they were occasionally able to achieve local air superiority very sporadically and exact a toll on allied tactical air forces but they were unable to maintain it and were quickly hunted from the sky. Their forward airfields were also very vulnerable to attack when the allies started establishing themselves on the continent.

 

To answer more succinctly, yes they were worn thin but they still contested the airspace and paid a high price for it.

 

As for whether the Luftwaffe could supply CAS, there was an old joke in the Wehrmacht. "If you see a plane in the sky, it's theirs. If you see none, they're ours."

Edited February 16, 2017 by Ace_Pilto

[Stig]

As for whether the Luftwaffe could supply CAS, there was an old joke in the Wehrmacht. "If you see a plane in the sky, it's theirs. If you see none, they're ours."

 

 

'If it's brown it's RAF, if it's silver it's American, if it's invisible it's German', iirc. 

[Scojo]

I couldn't imagine fighting against an enemy that has not only near full air superiority but also plenty of CAS. Talk about always being at maximum stress level even off of the front lines

[SYN_Haashashin]

Had to clean up this one. Please keep it on course. Last chance after BC warning.

 

7. Comments containing profanity, personal insults, accusations of cheating, excessive rudeness, vulgarity, drug propaganda, political and religious discussion and propaganda, all manifestations of Nazism and racist statements, calls to overthrow governments by force, inciting ethnic hatred, humiliation of persons of a particular gender, sexual orientation or religion are not allowed and will result in a ban.

[Gambit21]

No thanks.

This

[Lusekofte]

 

 

RAF Bomber Command used an evasive manoeuvre -  the corkscrew - in which a Lancaster might go well over a 60 degree bank.

 

I am quite aware of the core screw manoeuvre it out turned radar equipped 110 and was the most effective countermeasure available for the pilot. Everything is better than getting the cannonshells. Lancasters was amazingly manoeuvrable  but quite heavy on the controls. Talked to a RAF pilot flying transports, he flew Hercules before C 17 and he said the worst part was the delayed response , I guess you do not have that when the controls are directly hooked to the control surface 

[Gambit21]

Now - as has been elude to,..

A 9th Air Force post invasion Normandy campaign - I'd be all over that.

 

Only after 3 Pacific releases.

We've paid and supported through 3 Eastern Front modules - we've earned 3 Pacific releases and frankly we will need 3 in order to do it justice.

 

After that I will continue to support the product regardless of where they go next. Even though I know nothing about the Med (which is why I have no interest in it) - I think it deserves considering.

[Lusekofte]

Yes it would be too soon right now, but there will always be people more interesting in early war planes(like me) 

Hell I would love a Spanish civil war cfs. If I got that I would jump on to it. Then you could use the JU 52 as a bomber

[Gambit21]

I've always thought early war combat lends a more rewarding and visceral feel - Eastern Front and Pacific especially.

[Feathered_IV]

I very much doubt either of you would really have any idea what a Nazi was or wasn't

 

 

Without being combative, can you enlighten us?

 

Never mind, I think I figured it out for myself... 

 

 

[Edited]

[ShamrockOneFive]

Now - as has been elude to,..

A 9th Air Force post invasion Normandy campaign - I'd be all over that.

 

Only after 3 Pacific releases.

We've paid and supported through 3 Eastern Front modules - we've earned 3 Pacific releases and frankly we will need 3 in order to do it justice.

 

After that I will continue to support the product regardless of where they go next. Even though I know nothing about the Med (which is why I have no interest in it) - I think it deserves considering.

 

9th AF operations are REALLY REALLY cool in my mind. I'd love to see that. I know people don't always think about the B-26 for example but I think it'd become a huge flight sim fan favourite in bomber circles.