Bombing the Reich

[DetCord12B]

This isn't about political correctness or at least, the revolting hypocrisy that is passed off as political correctness these days, which in reality is just censorship.  This is about how comfortable each individual is about simulating certain aspects of the war, once the lies and mythologising have been scraped away.

 

[Edited]

 

Yet you play a game/sim that deals with the German invasion of the Soviet Union. An invasion that killed an estimated 30 million people in that theater, the vast majority of which were civilians. It doesn't matter if those historical aspects aren't rendered in the game itself, it still represents it, period. And I'm fairly certain you've flown a German mission or two. Now, you can attempt to draw sly parallels to suit your own belief system and personal biases with regards to said actions, but it certainly doesn't negate the fact that picking and choosing historical contexts with regards to that war in which and the manner it was waged is completely and utterly moot.    

 

Ridiculous position to take if you ask me.

 

Kia ora.

 

I guess you dont fly the HE111 much since it participated in the bombing of Britain, and you can bomb villages in the game as it is since military personnel also inhabit those towns. I guess youl miss out on the western front if they add it since you cant seem to look past painting high altitude bombing with virtue signaling philosophy. To each his own. 

 

EDIT: If it ever is added you know good and well the devs wouldnt make a city the objective to destroy, it would likely be train hubs and factories just as it is now.

 

Indeed. It's something that has been completely and faithfully recreated in CLoD and other sims.  

Edited February 15, 2017 by Bearcat

[Ace_Pilto]

Nobody would fly the bombers anyhow. 

 

Um I would. Eight hours, livestream, hopefully with a multi-crew manned by people who are just mad as I am. It's something I do in RoF and WoFF, long hand flown patrols over the front. A Berlin raid in a B-17 or a trip to Munich in a Lanc would be an epic feat of gaming endurance! Just the kind of thing that oddball fetishists like myself end up wasting our lives on/

 

By the way I think labelling Wulfs disgust for the strategic bombing campaign as "virtue signalling" is a little unfair, It's a genuinely and objectively correct to be disgusted by policies that led to mass starvation, incineration and sickness that killed millions of people to further morally bankrupt and counterproductive military strategies. We're not talking about some revisionist politically correct narrative here, this really happened.

Edited February 13, 2017 by Ace_Pilto

[Wulf]

It seems that some are taking this sim a bit too seriously here.......

 

 

Name the bastard and I'll have at him.

[Wulf]

Yet you play a game/sim that deals with the German invasion of the Soviet Union. An invasion that killed an estimated 30 million people in that theater, the vast majority of which were civilians. It doesn't matter if those historical aspects aren't rendered in the game itself, it still represents it, period. And I'm fairly certain you've flown a German mission or two. Now, you can attempt to draw sly parallels to suit your own belief system and personal biases with regards to said actions, but it certainly doesn't negate the fact that picking and choosing historical contexts with regards to that war in which and the manner it was waged is completely and utterly moot.    

 

Ridiculous position to take if you ask me.

 

Kia ora.

 

 

Indeed. It's something that has been completely and faithfully recreated in CLoD and other sims.  

 

 

Yeah....  Kia ora m8.

 

[Edited]

 

Seriously, must we sink to this level? 

 

Yes .. must we?

Edited February 15, 2017 by Bearcat

[Lusekofte]

Watching conga lines of lone wolf flying fortresses making low level diving attacks on trains stations and artillery.

 

I try to join other Pe 2 when online, but they do not notice my chat when asking. Lonewoolfing seem to be the only way if you do not have squad mates around. But I and many with me mostly Level-bomb if low clouds dose not obscure the view. There are not many Axis high up these days.

 

But yeah, the game play in this sim is way too WT like to handle a heavy bomber

Edited February 13, 2017 by 216th_LuseKofte

[Field-Ops]

Yeah....  Kia ora m8.

 

As it happens, I'm not simulating the activities of the murder squads or the wholesale shooting of prisoners that went on or even the burning of (w)illages if it comes to that.  I'm simulating air combat and tactical bombing.

 

[Edited]

Seriously, must we sink to this level? 

Insinuating that people condone the actions of the war by saying those things should not be suppressed in a simulator of that war is a bit childlike if you ask me. 

Edited February 15, 2017 by Bearcat

[DetCord12B]

Yeah....  Kia ora m8.

 

As it happens, I'm not simulating the activities of the murder squads or the wholesale shooting of prisoners that went on or even the burning of (w)illages if it comes to that.  I'm simulating air combat and tactical bombing.

 

Applying your logic, and assuming you fly Soviet aircraft, I can only conclude that you actively support the 'Great Terror', the executions, the torture, the forced confessions, the many millions of resulting deaths in the labour camps, the purging of tens of thousands of officers from the army, the Holodomor, the invasion of Poland and the Baltic states etc etc... 

 

Seriously, must we sink to this level? 

 

It's just kinda mind-numbingly ignorant to be so upset at the bombing campaigns against Germany while at the same time being dismissive of the horrific crimes committed against the Russian people during said campaign (Barbarossa). And at the same time playing a game that regardless of whether or not it depicts or simulates those events, are still a part of that history in which said game simulates. You can't pick and choose. You can't have it both ways. It's a completely contrary position.

 

While I do agree that its abhorrent that certain nations (UK) specifically targeted civilian centers as a form of retribution and vengeance, it doesn't negate the fact that the strategic bombing campaigns undertook by the Allies played a significant role in hampering the Reich's infrastructure and war making abilities. Does it make it right what they did in many circumstances? No, not at all. But it was a huge component of aerial warfare during WWII, a singular aspect this sim is all about. Aerial warfare.

 

That said, feel free to continue with your veiled ad-hom prostration against my character by attempting to associate myself as some sort of apologist.  

 

Insinuating that people condone the actions of the war by saying those things should not be suppressed in a simulator of that war is a bit childlike if you ask me. 

 

Bloody well said, mate. A state like his is a typical recourse whence no rational argument can be formulated. Thus you have a personal attack.  

[Wulf]

It's just kinda mind-numbingly ignorant to be so upset at the bombing campaigns against Germany while at the same time being dismissive of the horrific crimes committed against the Russian people during said campaign (Barbarossa). And at the same time playing a game that regardless of whether or not it depicts or simulates those events, are still a part of that history in which said game simulates. You can't pick and choose. You can't have it both ways. It's a completely contrary position.

 

While I do agree that its abhorrent that certain nations (UK) specifically targeted civilian centers as a form of retribution and vengeance, it doesn't negate the fact that the strategic bombing campaigns undertook by the Allies played a significant role in hampering the Reich's infrastructure and war making abilities. Does it make it right what they did in many circumstances? No, not at all. But it was a huge component of aerial warfare during WWII, a singular aspect this sim is all about. Aerial warfare.

 

That said, feel free to continue with your veiled ad-hom prostration against my character by attempting to associate myself as some sort of apologist.  

 

 

Bloody well said, mate. A state like his is a typical recourse whence no rational argument can be formulated. Thus you have a personal attack.  

 

 

[Edited]

Edited February 15, 2017 by Bearcat

[Dakpilot]

I wonder how Stalingrad City got into the state it is in as portrayed in BoS, don't worry no civilians were harmed in the making of our sim

 

ridiculous double standards..not much

 

Any way thread neatly sidetracked 

 

bringing ethics of war into a thread is known non starter, some people should know better

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Lusekofte]

Daylight bombing by B 17 was for making sure real targets was hit, the carpet bombing of cities was  a RAF thing done by brave crews under order. You do not ask question in situations like that, you do as you where told. 

Mixing those kind of things with a WW2 cfs , I am amazed anyone would fly Axis, following the logic of Wulf they all are Nazi´s. I suggest we stop arguments like this. If a man want a B 17 let him ask and do not mix genoside into it, This game is pretty realistic , but not quite there yet

[sinned]

woah.. wasn't there a general who couldn't commit himself to seeing blood, but was the mastermind of strategic planning of mass extermination?

 

Love the logic; simulation of air combat during barbarosa is a go go but bombing of city mission is a no no. 

 

Isn't this kind of reasoning how people in real life help themselves justify their killing and slyly dismiss the consequences of their actions? 

[Cybermat47]

please no cruddy B-17's they are terrible planes and not war machines but warbond sellers..

Can even roll past 60* without loosing control what crud.

So because you dislike a plane, we should ignore the fact that it was a major part of the war?

[DD_Arthur]

Yet you play a game/sim that deals with the German invasion of the Soviet Union. An invasion that killed an estimated 30 million people in that theater, the vast majority of which were civilians. It doesn't matter if those historical aspects aren't rendered in the game itself, it still represents it, period. And I'm fairly certain you've flown a German mission or two. Now, you can attempt to draw sly parallels to suit your own belief system and personal biases with regards to said actions, but it certainly doesn't negate the fact that picking and choosing historical contexts with regards to that war in which and the manner it was waged is completely and utterly moot.      

 

[Edited]

 

 

woah.. wasn't there a general who couldn't commit himself to seeing blood, but was the mastermind of strategic planning of mass extermination?

 

That would be Himmler.

Edited February 15, 2017 by Bearcat

[Wulf]

 

 

 

 

That would be Himmler.

 

 

 

Yeah, but Himmler wasn't a general was he Arf-a so I guess we'll never know.  Shame, sounded like really valuable info.  

[Aap]

 

 

Yeah, but Himmler wasn't a general was he Arf-a so I guess we'll never know.

 

Well, SS had it's own rank system and Himmler was "Reichsführer-SS" which was the highest possible rank there and equivalent to field marshal in the army. 

[PatrickAWlson]

[Edited]

Strategic targeting.  The factory in the city.  The refinery just outside of the city.  Flying a four engine aircraft.  Manning 10 different stations.  May not be exciting to you (in truth it's not very exciting to me either) but it may be very interesting to others.  

Edited February 15, 2017 by Bearcat

[unreasonable]

There can be no definitive answer to the morality issue - whatever people say, and however categorically they repeat themselves, it is not obvious that area bombing by the RAF and USAAF was morally wrong, given the technology and information available at the time, the over-riding necessity of winning the war, and the uncertainty about what courses of action would best achieve that goal.   It was not clear cut then, and it is not clear cut now.

 

So leaving that aside, some people may remember a game called B-17 Flying Fortress - the Mighty Eighth. As a sim it was fairly primitive, but it was quite an enjoyable game since the crew management system was interesting. My recollection was that it was somewhat unfinished, as sims usually are, but quite fun.  Starting with fairly easy missions over France the game gradually worked up to long range missions into Germany, while your crew improved their skills - or were wounded and replaced.

 

There is another game to be made along these lines - but not, I agree, by this team. Local scale tactical/operational levels work best for the BoX engine: so we are unlikely to get the Enola Gay in the Pacific series. 

[Ace_Pilto]

I remember B-17 TME, great game. Someone will pick up that torch and run with it one day. Whoever makes a truly multi-crewable B-17 will also make themselves a nice little bit of money if they do it well. It's the perfect premise for a co-operative simulation in the vein of something like "HMS Marulken".

 

The last game I played that allowed truly large formations of heavies was European Air War, you could hack the config files to produce 3 or 4 times more aircraft than default to give your game around 100-200 aircraft in the air. Heavies weren't flyable in EAW but it made large scale air battled centred around intercepting a "bomber stream" possible. EAW was an impressive game for it's time, it rates among the last of the truly immersive single player flight sims made by a AAA title. 

[[CPT]Pike*HarryM]

In BOS I have had plenty of bombs go long and hit the adjoining village or town and (presumably) kill the imagined civilians. Same thing as USAAF daylight raids but on a smaller scale. A mission designer or campaign system could just avoid "area targets" and only assign factories, railyards, or refineries as targets.  

Edited February 13, 2017 by HarryM

[DD_Arthur]

Yeah, but Himmler wasn't a general was he Arf-a so I guess we'll never know.  Shame, sounded like really valuable info.  

 

As has been pointed out, Himmler was a general in his own right and so many other thngs besides.......as you know, he was responsible for the operation of the Holocaust but he was also notorously squeamish.  The sight of blood could indeed make him faint.  

 

Ths had significant consequences;  during a visit to occupied Minsk in the late summer of '41 he was on hand to watch his men executing Jewish civilians outside the city.  He found the experience so nauseating that it in part led to the decision to open gas chambers and ovens in the eastern camps the following year.

 

Hope you find this info valuable

[Wulf]

Well, SS had it's own rank system and Himmler was "Reichsführer-SS" which was the highest possible rank there and equivalent to field marshal in the army. 

 

 

Yes, thanks for the Janet and John history lesson but I'm already aware, and have been for some years now, that the SS had it's own rank titles.  That's why I said Himmler wasn't a general, and I stick by that comment.  A Reichsfuhrer-SS isn't a general and neither for that matter is it a field marshal.

[Wulf]

As has been pointed out, Himmler was a general in his own right and so many other thngs besides.......as you know, he was responsible for the operation of the Holocaust but he was also notorously squeamish.  The sight of blood could indeed make him faint.  

 

Ths had significant consequences;  during a visit to occupied Minsk in the late summer of '41 he was on hand to watch his men executing Jewish civilians outside the city.  He found the experience so nauseating that it in part led to the decision to open gas chambers and ovens in the eastern camps the following year.

 

Hope you find this info valuable

 

 

Bloody-hell.  No Arf-a, Himmler wasn't a general.  That's like saying a major is also a captain, but maybe you believe that.  But then you never were that concerned about historical facts, or more precisely, your understanding of history, were you.  So no, I don't find anything you have to say "valuable".

 

And yes, we've all read the often repeated stories about Himmler being uncomfortable with 'blood' and Himmler being physically weak etc etc.  So what?  And yes, Hitler was apparently a vegetarian and very fond of his dog Blondi.  Gee, was he, fantastic.   

Edited February 13, 2017 by Wulf

[DD_Arthur]

  But then you never were that concerned about historical facts were you.

 

[Edited]

Edited February 15, 2017 by Bearcat

[[CPT]Pike*HarryM]

[Edited]

Edited February 15, 2017 by Bearcat

[216th_Jordan]

I always found the political component difficult in a war sim. I like to treat it from the technical side. There is a reason why civilians are not portayed in this sim and that is good. There is an area where a simulator should not go, even only for the respect towards the dead. I have never seen city bombing missions in the old il2 though. it was always about factories and stuff so I have trust in mission makers should a western european theater come some time in the future.

Edited February 13, 2017 by 216th_Jordan

[Lusekofte]

There was a similar derailed topic on ATAG site, where people flying RAF said they had problems flying Luftwaffe knowing what they fought for. That debate got very heated. Because those flying Axis felt rightfully offended by the implying of having a Facist agenda by doing so.

This is very difficult if you let it.

So do not let it, I would not fly a simulator based on fairytale nations with butterflies  insignia and unicorn skins. The historical role play and imagination implemented when I fly is the momentum making me start this flightsim. We just have to leave the political facts out of it. We are not fighting for either of the ideologies. We remember those who did and do not judge them.

[Cybermat47]

I'm not interested in flying a sim that has as it's objective the incineration of cities.

Yet you are interested in playing a game that has as it's objectives:

 

- The incineration of towns.

- The killing of wounded troops, by shooting down MEDEVAC aircraft.

- The killing of civilians, by sinking their ships.

- Burning aircrew alive.

- Burning tank crews alive.

 

Oh, wait a second, none of those are the objective - because it's a game, and it's not real life. Which would be exactly the case if they made a European Air War game.

 

Also, your attitude stinks.

[Sgt_Joch]

I have to admit I am not sure what the point of this thread is. None of us were adults or served in WW2 so no one is personally responsible for what happened.

 

It is a game, pure and simple, sitting in your living room staring at a computer screen playing a flight sim or sub sim or war game sim does not turn you into a pilot, sub skipper or general or even give you any inkling of what war is really like.

 

There was more than enough killing of men, women and children on both sides. This is not the place to discuss it.

 

so everyone take a chill pill.

Edited February 13, 2017 by Sgt_Joch

[Wulf]

[Edited]

Edited February 15, 2017 by Bearcat

[[CPT]Pike*HarryM]

Dude, I was joking, hence the  

[Feathered_IV]

I very much doubt either of you would really have any idea what a Nazi was or wasn't

Without being combative, can you enlighten us?

[DD_Arthur]

Cheer up Wulf!!  Its a flight sim forum so you've got to expect a bit of knockabout comedy.  When I read this;

 

[Edited]

 

 I swear I heard the sound of tiny violins - hundreds of 'em

 

For your amusement - from the dreaded Banana forum of five years ago on the opening of the Bomber Command Memorial in London.  My contribution to the usual dustup starts at post #14.

 

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=32886

 

Edited February 15, 2017 by Bearcat

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

 

Oh - and dont forget to publish your WOL stats (but not the ones showing your K/D ratio)

Im a dedicated bomber..  K/D Ratio does not matter what matter is total Bombage and GK for hours flown.

 

I am high ranked player on the WoL Server sooooo...

 

 

Church is a sacred House of God.

No bombs can do damage to a holy sanctuary.

 

Not a silly reason but a logical one.

Thats not logical..

 

Nor realistic and immersion braking

yes people need to get over things.

 

Bombing fake people (pixels) in a game does not matter.

[BOO]

Im a dedicated bomber..  K/D Ratio does not matter what matter is total Bombage and GK for hours flown.

 

I am high ranked player on the WoL Server sooooo...

 

More "Alternative Facts"

[Feathered_IV]

Edit: [i'm not helping ]

 

Why is this thread even still open when the harmless crane one was closed?

 

I don't know.  Very disappointing.  I had some devastatingly clever crane puns lined up too. 

[curiousGamblerr]

Edit: [i'm not helping ]

 

Why is this thread even still open when the harmless crane one was closed?

I was wondering the same thing... this and the trees one, kill 'em I say!

 

Sometimes we need saving from ourselves lol sorry we missed your crane puns Feathered

Edited February 14, 2017 by 19//curiousGamblerr

[Habu]

RAF Bomber Command used an evasive manoeuvre -  the corkscrew - in which a Lancaster might go well over a 60 degree bank. There was a documentary interview with a German ace who described watching Lancasters rolling to the vertical doing this - cannot find it now, but in another segment the it is discussed - note the Lancaster could even be slow rolled (empty!):

 

  

It was used by Halifax crew too. I'm reading a book about a French crew of Halifax (half of the book). The first part is how every man go to england, then their training, and after, they described the 38 mission they done. And in some mission they described the maneuver they have to do and the teammate work on a bomber. In most of the mission, they give the payload, weathern and sometimes a picture from the bomb effect. For a mission builder it's a must have if one day we have an Halifax and the right map.

 

But It's in french, and is no more edited. But to french people, or person who read it, it's a must have even if i have not finish to read it (i read half of the book).

 

Title is  : Le L for Love from Andrée A Veauvy.

http://p.v.free.fr/l_for_love/

http://www.aerostories.org/~aerobiblio/article250.html

[hames123]

Didn't Britain lend Russia a few wellingtons also or was it just the "Handley Page Hampden"

We had to dump them somewhere

[hames123]

Um I would. Eight hours, livestream, hopefully with a multi-crew manned by people who are just mad as I am. It's something I do in RoF and WoFF, long hand flown patrols over the front. A Berlin raid in a B-17 or a trip to Munich in a Lanc would be an epic feat of gaming endurance! Just the kind of thing that oddball fetishists like myself end up wasting our lives on/

 

By the way I think labelling Wulfs disgust for the strategic bombing campaign as "virtue signalling" is a little unfair, It's a genuinely and objectively correct to be disgusted by policies that led to mass starvation, incineration and sickness that killed millions of people to further morally bankrupt and counterproductive military strategies. We're not talking about some revisionist politically correct narrative here, this really happened.

Fly all the way to Munich and miss? That would be annoying. I have no qualms about such games because it is just a game, and besides, the Germans bombed countless cities around Europe, and the Japanese in the Pacific, and they get angry because the allies did it better. However, if there are games set on the Western theatre, we need Panzerfaust teams of 2 old men/children(no one will notice from that high up) hiding during the ground support missions, ready to pop up and ambush a passing tank(the best places would be behind houses, walls and hedges). Then we could fly Typhoons and Thunderbolts and try in vain to find them.

[Scojo]

I agree with Finkeren....

 

First, I'd like all of the medium bombers to make it in the game, as it's more feasible to fly those missions.

 

Second, strategic bombing would only serve SP, imo. I just don't feel like anyone in MP would either touch it due to the time investment or the fact that it would only be very interesting with many many planes in the air.

 

However, if they do decide to go with strategic bombing, I hope they'll just create it as a capstone on the Pacific with B-29s/Mustangs and not try to recreate the strategic bombing campaigns of the western front.