Bombing the Reich

[DetCord12B]

I know that following BoK they're heading to the Pacific. While I think its an interesting aspect of WWII, naval aviation, CAG's, surface warfare and all that that theater entails, its not really my thing as I prefer the ETO. I don't know about you guys, but I think a late-war expansion with P-51's, 109K's, B-17's, day/night strategic bombing, interception etc etc would be the way to go. It's one of those aspects that hasn't really been covered officially in the sim world and its something that would really shine in IL-2. 

 

Obviously BoK still has a long way to go in the dev cycle and the Pacific expansions are several years out if not more. Still, here's to hoping? But as they say, wish in one hand...

[Finkeren]

No thanks.

 

Personally I hope, that after 1-2 Pacific installments, this sim will return to the Russian steppes to finish off the Eastern Front.

 

Either that or a Mediterranean sim.

 

BTW: The strategic (daytime) bombing of Germany has been covered by many flight sims over the years, just not recently.

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

please no cruddy B-17's they are terrible planes and not war machines but warbond sellers..

Can even roll past 60* without loosing control what crud.

 

[curiousGamblerr]

please no cruddy B-17's they are terrible planes and not war machines but warbond sellers..

 

Can even roll past 60* without loosing control what crud.

 

Not everyone flies heavy bombers like a maniac Mr. 111 Dive Bomber   

[Finkeren]

Also: The size of the map required for a strategic bombing sim is just not compatible with the levet of detail, accuracy and texture quality that we see in this sim. It will take far, far too long to create and would have great trouble running on any system that exists today.

You might want to look into this though: http://www.wingsoverthereich.com/

 

Still a long way into the future, if it gets released at all, but at least you'll have something to look forward to.

[ShamrockOneFive]

I'm seriously doubting that heavy bombers will get too much of a role in sims for a while. Doing them right is complicated, time consuming, and expensive and while there is certainly a player base, its a niche within a niche. I don't want to say it will never happen but I do doubt it will.

 

What I'd like to see ETO wise would be Normandy/D-Day or Ardennes related scenarios. We get that West Front flavour with Mustangs and Spitfires but in a more tactical situation that suits this series well. Also... while it may not be a B-17... I'd love for the series to have a B-25 or a B-26. A B-26 over D-Day... with Mustangs and Thunderbolts or Mitchells with Spitfires and Typhoons... yeah that'd be great :D

[Field-Ops]

I'm seriously doubting that heavy bombers will get too much of a role in sims for a while. Doing them right is complicated, time consuming, and expensive and while there is certainly a player base, its a niche within a niche. I don't want to say it will never happen but I do doubt it will.

 

What I'd like to see ETO wise would be Normandy/D-Day or Ardennes related scenarios. We get that West Front flavour with Mustangs and Spitfires but in a more tactical situation that suits this series well. Also... while it may not be a B-17... I'd love for the series to have a B-25 or a B-26. A B-26 over D-Day... with Mustangs and Thunderbolts or Mitchells with Spitfires and Typhoons... yeah that'd be great :D

Dont forget the waves of C47s.

 

I cant imagine them being able to pull off the B17 without making it premium due to the load of research and development that would go into such a plane. And unless they want to shortcut the map design by having the B17 spawn at the far edge of the map they would need to model a map that span from Britain to the Reich. 

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

Not everyone flies heavy bombers like a maniac Mr. 111 Dive Bomber   

Haha shhhh im not crazy its just these fumes in 111 from hans and his dodgy sourkruat

t

Only 2 heavy bombers are needed.

 

LW = FW-200-C4 (heavily used bomber)

 

VVS = Lend Lease Wellington

[BOO]

Lend lease Wellington?????

[Finkeren]

Lend lease Wellington?????

 

Soviet Union had shortages of rubber.

[BOO]

ahhhhhhhhhh.......

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

Didn't Britain lend Russia a few wellingtons also or was it just the "Handley Page Hampden"

[BOO]

Just the Hampden- and not a lot of them. 

[Wulf]

An interesting idea but probably impractical.  Operations lasting from 2 to 7 hours, up to a 1000 aircraft, tedious formation flying or inky darkness etc etc...

 

And then there's the question of morality.  

 

[Edited]

 

No there is not. This is a Flight Sim forum.. a GAMING .. forum. Morality does not come into play here. 

Edited February 15, 2017 by Bearcat

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

Please dont bring in that .... here
WW2 Germany / Russia / UK / US /JAPAN ALL bombed innocent civis in cities while they were sleeping or having breakfast. (some including their own people) Period

 

Edited February 12, 2017 by =WFPK=Sshadow14

[Wulf]

Please dont bring in that .... here

WW2 Germany / Russia / UK / US /JAPAN ALL bombed innocent civis in cities while they were sleeping or having breakfast. (some including their own people) Period

 

 

 

 

[Edited]

 

 

Oh yeah, and by the way, don't presume to tell me what I can or cannot discuss here. 

 

You cannot discuss this here. 

Edited February 15, 2017 by Bearcat

[Lusekofte]

I would love to have a B 17, despite what said above it was a good sturdy plane that took a lot of punishment. The design and control surfaces did not allow more than 60 degrees bank, but you never wanted to do that in any multi crewed aircraft. It was a good plane to fly over the channel, safe to ditch in water and ground. The B 24 carried more bombs , but it was not a plane you wanted to ditch in, all though there are films on youtube showing good ones, even worse to crash land in.

But I think we just are to few, I would be perfectly fine with B 26 Marauder and B 25 Mitchell a Betty Bomber and JU 188 DO, 217 K , Sunderland , Catalina . I can do with these

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

There is no children in the game.

you can't even bomb the people walking around.

Geez i even tried to bomb tanks next to a church with 2 x 1tonne bombs. hit the tanks but church 5m stayed standing for some silly reason.

 

[Feathered_IV]

I don't think I'd enjoy flying a late war ETO in singleplayer - intercepting a maximum of four B-17s, escorted by three P-51s. Nor would I much care for the multilayer equivalent. Watching conga lines of lone wolf flying fortresses making low level diving attacks on trains stations and artillery.

[DD_Arthur]

No thanks.

 

Personally I hope, that after 1-2 Pacific installments, this sim will return to the Russian steppes to finish off the Eastern Front.

 

 

Hmmm...would that include operation Bagration?  I think theres a question of morality here.  Do we really want to be simulating all those advances where the Russians started to liberate all those death camps the Germans had built in the east?

 

I think there's a question of morality here..not comfortable...different values...........

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

it was almost 100 years ago time for people to get over it and move on. dragging it out just makes the enemy keep winning.

Do you think in 2050 we will still have ww1 remembrance or even ww2.
Nope nobody will care or remember it

Just like now nobody cares about wars from 200 years ago.

Bad things happened but this is a game with pixels and not real people History Cannot repeat itself because of a game.

The Morality is wishy washy at best.
They liberated those death camps while they themselves had death camps mostly filled with their own people who did not co operate with the dictator

 

[BOO]

Haha shhhh im not crazy its just these fumes in 111 from hans and his dodgy sourkruat

t

Only 2 heavy bombers are needed.

 

LW = FW-200-C4 (heavily used bomber)

 

VVS = Lend Lease Wellington

 

 

it was almost 100 years ago time for people to get over it and move on. dragging it out just makes the enemy keep winning.

 

Do you think in 2050 we will still have ww1 remembrance or even ww2.

Nope nobody will care or remember it

 

Just like now nobody cares about wars from 200 years ago.

 

Bad things happened but this is a game with pixels and not real people History Cannot repeat itself because of a game.

 

The Morality is wishy washy at best.

They liberated those death camps while they themselves had death camps mostly filled with their own people who did not co operate with the dictator

 

[Edited]

 

If you can't take it then don't fly flight sims. 

Edited February 15, 2017 by Bearcat

[Wulf]

Hmmm...would that include operation Bagration?  I think theres a question of morality here.  Do we really want to be simulating all those advances where the Russians started to liberate all those death camps the Germans had built in the east?

 

I think there's a question of morality here..not comfortable...different values...........

 

 

[Edited]

Edited February 15, 2017 by Bearcat

[PatrickAWlson]

I can just imagine ... "EPIC FAIL!  Why can't I enter the waist gunner position!  Worst sim ever!"

[sinned]

There is no children in the game.

 

you can't even bomb the people walking around.

 

Geez i even tried to bomb tanks next to a church with 2 x 1tonne bombs. hit the tanks but church 5m stayed standing for some silly reason.

 

 

Church is a sacred House of God.

No bombs can do damage to a holy sanctuary.

 

Not a silly reason but a logical one.

[TheJay13]

Wulf I suspect you are taking this far too seriously. If you have so many moral boundries to simulating death, then why are you even playing a war simulation to begin with.

[unreasonable]

I would love to have a B 17, despite what said above it was a good sturdy plane that took a lot of punishment. The design and control surfaces did not allow more than 60 degrees bank, but you never wanted to do that in any multi crewed aircraft. It was a good plane to fly over the channel, safe to ditch in water and ground. The B 24 carried more bombs , but it was not a plane you wanted to ditch in, all though there are films on youtube showing good ones, even worse to crash land in.

But I think we just are to few, I would be perfectly fine with B 26 Marauder and B 25 Mitchell a Betty Bomber and JU 188 DO, 217 K , Sunderland , Catalina . I can do with these

 

RAF Bomber Command used an evasive manoeuvre -  the corkscrew - in which a Lancaster might go well over a 60 degree bank. There was a documentary interview with a German ace who described watching Lancasters rolling to the vertical doing this - cannot find it now, but in another segment the it is discussed - note the Lancaster could even be slow rolled (empty!):

 

  

[Wulf]

Wulf I suspect you are taking this far too seriously. If you have so many moral boundries to simulating death, then why are you even playing a war simulation to begin with.

 

 

Hey, I'm not trying to turn this into a big issue.  I'm just saying for me, it's a step too far.  For me, it's a reason I wouldn't be interested.

 

[Edited]

 

Call me old fashioned if you will but I don't like the idea of simulating that kind of war.  I just don't find it appealing.

 

You need to knock off the moral judgement. Killing is killing. This is a COMBAT flight sim.. with simulated death. Get over it. 

Edited February 15, 2017 by Bearcat

[unreasonable]

Hey, I'm not trying to turn this into a big issue.  I'm just saying for me, it's a step too far.  For me, it's a reason I wouldn't be interested.

 

[Edited]

 

Call me old fashioned if you will but I don't like the idea of simulating that kind of war.  I just don't find it appealing.

 

Personally I would have no problem simulating area bombing raids, I am sure I would find the fires and lights fascinating, but I understand your position on this.

 

Strategic bombing was not, however, only about "killing civilians". I will leave aside the sematics of whether "dehousing" in order to reduce labour productivity is really any different. There is also the case that not killing civilians while rendering them incapable of productive work was actually the optimum outcome for the Allies, since dead people are a much lower resource drain than living but unproductive ones, just as wounded soldiers are a bigger resource drain than dead ones.

 

Whatever your views on area bombing, there was plenty of strategic bombing that was clearly aimed at military/industrial strategic or tactical targets. The USAAF raids on ball bearing factories, joint RAF/USAAF raids on the rail network before D-Day, on the U-Boat pens, on the Rumanian oilfields, on V-weapon launch sites, on dams, on Tirpitz.... no doubt people can think of more.

 

There would actually be plenty of day and night action involving the heavy bomber force aside from area attacks on cities. 

Edited February 15, 2017 by Bearcat

[Wulf]

Personally I would have no problem simulating area bombing raids, I am sure I would find the fires and lights fascinating, but I understand your position on this.

 

Strategic bombing was not, however, only about "killing civilians". I will leave aside the sematics of whether "dehousing" in order to reduce labour productivity is really any different. There is also the case that not killing civilians while rendering them incapable of productive work was actually the optimum outcome for the Allies, since dead people are a much lower resource drain than living but unproductive ones, just as wounded soldiers are a bigger resource drain than dead ones.

 

Whatever your views on area bombing, there was plenty of strategic bombing that was clearly aimed at military/industrial strategic or tactical targets. The USAAF raids on ball bearing factories, joint RAF/USAAF raids on the rail network before D-Day, on the U-Boat pens, on the Rumanian oilfields, on V-weapon launch sites, on dams, on Tirpitz.... no doubt people can think of more.

 

There would actually be plenty of day and night action involving the heavy bomber force aside from area attacks on cities. 

 

 

Yes, towards the end of the war some precision bombing did occur.  Bomber Command in particular achieved some truly amazing results.  That's true enough.  But the war was running for about 4 years before that happened. 

 

[Edited]

Edited February 15, 2017 by Bearcat

[Feathered_IV]

I just like aeroplanes.  I also find the human side of the story interesting and one that could be explored well and with compassion within a singleplayer game. 

[sinned]

For me, they are the same level.

 

Allied area bombing of pixelated buildings with historical knowledge of what happened to women and children inside OR cool aerial combat with yak 1 so axis land force can move in with historical knowledge of what happend to certain racial groups' women and children after city was occupied.

 

Whats the diff?

Maybe the diff is pulling trigger myself is a no go but clearing obstacles so that others can pull the trigger is a go go.

Anyway next theatre is Midway and Jason has asked to suppress these type of other theatre threads.

 

It clogs and clouds the team to focus on the development.

[Field-Ops]

... but maybe I'd just getting sensitive in my old age.

Yea, thats what i'm getting out of this. Now hows about some more airplane talk and less political reasons not to include them? Thats like going a step ahead of omitting the swastika off german planes and just not including german planes at all. 

[Ace_Pilto]

I'd be looking to the upcoming "Wings Over the Reich" from OBD for this kind of large formation, long haul strategic bomber scenario.

 

It's not really a possibility to recreate such a complicated and large scale battle with a physics intensive sim like BoS. Only NASA would be able to play it and they need their supercomputers to

lie to us about climate change

. I've mentioned it before and I'll say it again, if Il-2 goes west it will most likely be with a simulation of the tactical air war fought by fighter bombers and medium bombers since this represents the most achievable and widely appealing scenario.

 

A game about strategic bombing shouldn't be about morality, it should be about overcoming the challenges of strategic bombing. I'm interested in those challenges and in flying the missions. Games that want to pollute my fun with moral overtures are games that will be chucked in the bin, I don't need to be condescended to by a toy. If playing this kind of scenario makes people think and motivates them to look into history more seriously then that's fine too, the historical record of WW2 sorely needs to be de-propagandized.

[Wulf]

Yea, thats what i'm getting out of this. Now hows about some more airplane talk and less political reasons not to include them? Thats like going a step ahead of omitting the swastika off german planes and just not including german planes at all. 

 

 

[Edited]

Edited February 15, 2017 by Bearcat

[Field-Ops]

I guess you dont fly the HE111 much since it participated in the bombing of Britain, and you can bomb villages in the game as it is since military personnel also inhabit those towns. I guess youl miss out on the western front if they add it since you cant seem to look past painting high altitude bombing with virtue signaling philosophy. To each his own. 

 

EDIT: If it ever is added you know good and well the devs wouldnt make a city the objective to destroy, it would likely be train hubs and factories just as it is now.

Edited February 13, 2017 by Field-Ops

[Ace_Pilto]

If it ever is added you know good and well the devs wouldnt make a city the objective to destroy, it would likely be train hubs and factories just as it is now.

 

Pretty much this and the whole argument is moot.

[Quax]

Nobody would fly the bombers anyhow. 8 hours straight and level in formation ? Even if you work with airstarts and airlandings you need at least to fly 2 hours straight and level

to give the time for a realistic intercept simulation. And why should the devs develope a map, if the sim stays above 30000 ft at night ?

Even attacking the bombers would be boring after a few days. Endless discussion about sniping AI gunners etc would be the only result of years of development.

No thanks ! (BTW I see it like Wulf - I have no interest in bombing civilian cities. Simulating war crimes ? - No thanks)

Edited February 13, 2017 by Quax

[Wulf]

I guess you dont fly the HE111 much since it participated in the bombing of Britain, and you can bomb villages in the game as it is since military personnel also inhabit those towns. I guess youl miss out on the western front if they add it since you cant seem to look past painting high altitude bombing with virtue signaling philosophy. To each his own. 

 

EDIT: If it ever is added you know good and well the devs wouldnt make a city the objective to destroy, it would likely be train hubs and factories just as it is now.

 

 

[Edited]

Edited February 15, 2017 by Bearcat

[TheJay13]

It seems that some are taking this sim a bit too seriously here. Its not real life, no one dies in this game. Besides if you are simulating the experience of being a pilot in a conflict nobody cared what moral quandries you held... you're a pilot, its your job. War is awful but we don't need to keep dragging it into the discussion just so we can make some strange philosophical point about how morally bankrupt everyone in the conflict was.