Why does the P-40e feel so nose heavy ?

[Guest deleted@50488]

With or wothout ammunition,

 

if I set it up for a flight with, say. 40% fuel, I have to trim full tyail heavy on takeoff to avoid a prop strike as the tail lifts, and inflight under most flight situations, a lot of tail heavy trim is required ?

 

Apart from it this particular aircraft really feels slugish ....,like no other single engine in IL2...

[Dakpilot]

Well it does have a whole Ton heavier empty weight than a Bf 109-E7, it has a lot of weight to get up to speed 

 

with full fuel which is carried in a rear tank I imagine the trim parameters would be more normal

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Finkeren]

IIRC the P-40E was in fact quite nose-heavy, which is why the later models had a lengthened rear fuselage.

[Guest deleted@50488]

Ok, didn't know about that detail guys.

 

But so, the "E" isn't one of the later models right?

[Scojo]

The E is the earlier model. It turned into the "Warhawk" in it's final stage, if I remember correctly.

 

The standard procedure for take-off is trimming the elevator up. Also heard the same thing in several videos on the aircraft. They would set the elevator trim to a take-off setting in the preflight check. What that exact setting was, I can't remember.

 

And if it means anything, this is also the same for other flight sims that have this aircraft

[IckyATLAS]

I tried duels with the Polikarpov I16, and I have really trouble to win. The P40 has terrible inertia, speeds up slowly, losses energy quickly, and the nimble I16 is more than a match.

[TP_Silk]

I would suggest that the best way to fight in a P-40 is probably BnZ as best you can. From what I read on the forums, the extra nose weight really helps in a dive (as long as you are careful not to let the prop over-speed).

[Legioneod]

The E is the earlier model. It turned into the "Warhawk" in it's final stage, if I remember correctly.

 

The standard procedure for take-off is trimming the elevator up. Also heard the same thing in several videos on the aircraft. They would set the elevator trim to a take-off setting in the preflight check. What that exact setting was, I can't remember.

 

And if it means anything, this is also the same for other flight sims that have this aircraft

Warhawk has always been it's name. Warhawk was it's official name in the U.S.

 

Kittyhawk and Tomahawk is what Russians and British called it. 

 

As for taking off, I just hold the stick back until I want to drop the nose, then I gently ease up on the stick until the tail is off the ground, Once I gain enough speed I lift off.

Edited February 7, 2017 by Legioneod

[[CPT]milopugdog]

Regarding trim. On the trim wheel, there are the letters T.O. That's the Take Off trim setting. To get there it's 93/95%? Setting the trim there helps a ton, and you'll usually want to have it about that high for flight anyway.

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

Reallly ?

Only messed around with it.
But i hold brakes then max power and release as early as possible i force the nose down  to level.

Ohh and like all take offs i Reset all trims an use my own settings the default "cruise" trim settings.

[TP_Silk]

You definitely don't want to be using full throttle on take-off in the P-40. Take it to the red line and no further. The only way we could safely use full throttle for any period of time when we were using this aircraft as our main mount in our campaigns was once we had gained a significant altitude. I remember it being a virtually constant balancing act of RPM and throttle while leaving it on auto-mixture. Maybe I mis-remember.

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

ohh i should say now for a long time in il2 (full throttle i call take off power)
Be that 75% in winter on BF110 or 95% in summer Sorry

[/top_lad/CaptainJack]

Is there even anything the P-40 can do in a fight except for hope the other guy is just extremely bad and crashes under his own actions?

[Legioneod]

Is there even anything the P-40 can do in a fight except for hope the other guy is just extremely bad and crashes under his own actions?

I've gotten a few kills in the P-40 but it is extremely difficult compared to all other aircraft.

 

The main problem with the P-40 is the way the engine is modeled in-game, currently the engine is very sensitive, it shouldn't be as sensitive as it currently is.

 

If the P-40s engine is modeled better then it would be a better aircraft in-game. Irl the P-40 was a good fighter.

 

 

Some tips:

 

Get high.

 

Never climb in a fight, climbing is suicidal.

 

Hit and Run as much as possible.

 

Try not to get into a turn fight, you'll bleed too much energy and you wont be able to regain it.

 

When in doubt, dive and run away, then climb up and try again.

Edited February 7, 2017 by Legioneod

[Finkeren]

The P-40 is probably the only fighter in the sim currently, that needs to have a healthy energy advantage in order to do anything effectively in a dogfight. With a good reserve of energy it's a fairly maneuverable plane with great dive characteristics and a reasonable zoom climb. As such it's a great ambush plane and an adequate BnZer, provided you start out with the advantage and don't take too long getting the kill. 

 

Without energy advantage, it's just utterly outclassed in every aspect by the German fighters. 

[Blutaar]

The problem for me is the part where you say "don`t take too long getting the kill".

Its so hard to be stable for me for a good aimed shot, same problem i have with 109s but these i fly very often so i got kinda used to it, not like in the p40, i should give her more sticktime.

[Guest deleted@50488]

All great tips!  Thx guys!

[TP_Silk]

The problem for me is the part where you say "don`t take too long getting the kill".

Its so hard to be stable for me for a good aimed shot, same problem i have with 109s but these i fly very often so i got kinda used to it, not like in the p40, i should give her more sticktime.

 

Yes, but if you get those .50 cals on target they will do an awful lot of damage. One valid tactic may be to take the extra ammo loadout and do a bit of 'spray and pray' to slow the enemy down or get him otherwise smoking/streaming.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Full Nose Heavy Trim is for about 460-470kph, Tail Heavy Trim for somewhat above 200kph. 

 

There may or may not be a FM Change at some point in the Future similar to what happened to the Fw 190, mostly Adjustment of Lift and Drag at high AoAs, maybe Propeller Effciency. I hope at least. 

 

Anyways: Fly it without the Rear Tank filled, you rarely ever need that Extra Fuel. It is a lot better to fly like that.

It can pull Black Out Turns down to very low Speeds. 

Edited February 8, 2017 by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

[Guest deleted@50488]

Full Nose Heavy Trim is for about 460-470kph, Tail Heavy Trim for somewhat above 200kph. 

 

There may or may not be a FM Change at some point in the Future similar to what happened to the Fw 190, mostly Adjustment of Lift and Drag at high AoAs, maybe Propeller Effciency. I hope at least. 

 

Anyways: Fly it without the Rear Tank filled, you rarely ever need that Extra Fuel. It is a lot better to fly like that.

It can pull Black Out Turns down to very low Speeds. 

 

What percentage should I load in the settings menu in order for the Rear Tank not to become filled ?

 

This is an area I really would like to see this combat sims doing something like we have for ages in MSFS - the chance to write down the fuel quantities in gallons, litres, kg, pound.... instead of a %...

Edited February 8, 2017 by jcomm

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

What percentage should I load in the settings menu order for the Rear Tank not to become filled ?

 

This is an area I really would lie to see this combat sims doing something like we have for ages in MSFS - the change to write down the fuel quantities in gallons, litres, kg, pound.... instead of a %...

330-350 Liters. 

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

What percentage should I load in the settings menu order for the Rear Tank not to become filled ?

 

Post scriptum:

 

 

How could you check this in the game yourself?

 

Well,

now you know, that the fuel tanks volumes of the in-game P-40E-1 are:

 

FUSELAGE TANK: 236.6 liters

MAIN TANK: 191.2 liters

RESERVE TANK: 132.5 liters

(overall: 560.3 liters)

 

Also you know, that the fuel gauges indicate the amount of fuel in U.S. gallons.

And you know about the current GUI bug in the Plane Setting Menu (real amount of fuel = displayed amount of fuel times 1.018).

 

Moreover, you should know the proper order of the fuel tanks usage: FUSELAGE TANK (at the beginning) -> MAIN TANK -> RESERVE TANK (in the end).

 

So, let's calculate what the fuel gauges should indicate when you set the fuel in the Plane Setting Menu.

 

For example:

 

1. Setting the fuel at 71% in the Plane Settings Menu will mean that you have: 0.71 * 560.3 liters = 397.813 liters (but the GUI will display only 397.813 / 1.018 = 391 liters).

 

According to the fuel tanks volumes, there will be:

 

132.5 liters in the RESERVE TANK

191.2 liters in the MAIN TANK

and (397.813 - (132.5 + 191.2)) = 74.113 liters in the FUSELAGE TANK

 

So, the fuel tanks gauges will indicate that:

 

The RESERVE TANK is full (but only 25.0 U.S. gallons will be displayed)

The MAIN TANK is full (51.5.0 U.S. gallons will be displayed)

And there are 74.113 liters = ~19.6 U.S. gallons in the FUSELAGE TANK (a little bit less than "20" on the gauge)..

 

The FUEL TANK SELECTOR should be set on “FUS”.

 

 

2. Setting the fuel at 44% in the Plane Settings Menu will mean that you have: 0.44 * 560.3 liters = 246.532 liters (but the GUI will display only 246.532 / 1.018 = 242 liters).

 

According to the fuel tanks volumes, there will be:

 

132.5 liters in the RESERVE TANK

(246.532 - 132.5) = 114.032 liters in the MAIN TANK

and zero in the FUSELAGE TANK

 

So, the fuel tanks gauges will indicate that:

 

The RESERVE TANK is full (but only 25.0 U.S. gallons will be displayed)

There are 114.032 liters = ~30.1 U.S. gallons in the MAIN TANK (a little bit more than "30" on the gauge).

And the FUSELAGE TANK is empty.

 

The FUEL TANK SELECTOR should be set on “MAIN WING”.

 

 

3. Setting the fuel at 10% in the Plane Settings Menu will mean that you have: 0.1 * 560.3 liters = 56.03 liters (but the GUI will display only 56.03 / 1.018 = 55 liters).

 

According to the fuel tanks volumes, there will be:

 

56.03 liters in the RESERVE TANK

zero in the MAIN TANK

and zero in the FUSELAGE TANK

 

So, the fuel tanks gauges will indicate that:

 

There are 56.03 liters = ~14.8 U.S. gallons in the RESERVE TANK (a little bit less than "15" on the gauge).

The MAIN TANK is empty.

And the FUSELAGE TANK is empty.

 

The FUEL TANK SELECTOR should be set on “RES”.

 

 

Check it yourself if you want, using any different percentages of fuel in the Plane Settings Menu.

 

Minde the small error which is allread fixed.

[Guest deleted@50488]

Brilliant!

 

Thank you !!!!!  

[Chief_Mouser]

One further alteration by the dev team:

 

 

 

Hi again,

we re-checked our sources and come to the conclusion that the fuel gauges with these scales should indicate the amount of fuel in the Imperial gallons.

We fixed this and also erased "US" from the gauges and re-marked the fuel selector for Imperial gallons.

 

 

 

Cheers.

Edited February 8, 2017 by 216th_Cat

[Guest deleted@50488]

I really have to start reading accross the DDs...

[Guest deleted@50488]

Regarding takeoff trim settings, I could use some further help...

 

When I start the P-40E in a mission the elevator trim is set near tha "V" mark with "T.O", but I usually give it a tail-heavy full turn until it returns to the same alignement, but now reading around 99%-100% tail heavy.

 

Is this the correct setting for takeoff, or should it already be set by default when I load the aircraft for a flight, because I think I read that by default the aircraft in IL.2 spawn with cruise trim settings ?

Edited February 8, 2017 by jcomm

[Scojo]

The problem for me is the part where you say "don`t take too long getting the kill".

Its so hard to be stable for me for a good aimed shot, same problem i have with 109s but these i fly very often so i got kinda used to it, not like in the p40, i should give her more sticktime.

IRL this would have been mitigated by the tactics used, at least on the American side. They favored a 3 flight of 4 tactical approach where one group would dive, attack, extend, and climb, each flight being soon followed by another.

 

You also have some help with the .50CALs. They can do a lot of damage quickly. I'm not sure how well they do in this sim, but that was generally the impression of the guns during the real war

[Tektolnes]

You also have some help with the .50CALs. They can do a lot of damage quickly. I'm not sure how well they do in this sim, but that was generally the impression of the guns during the real war

 

The .50 cals tear planes up in the sim. 4 x .50 cals and extra ammo loadout gives you a sustained punch. The plane is total rubbish apart from that though - in MP I use it just for anti-bomber duties.

[Blutaar]

I konw that the 50s are nice its just the whobble when you need some Gs at lower speeds that makes problems but im sure with more practice it will be manageable, its not like that i never hit something but not reliable enough.

[Field-Ops]

On a side note this will be a worthy plane to have when the A5M4 comes into play and we can do Flying Tigers missions. 

[Guest deleted@50488]

Strangely, and thanks to the posts in this thread, I started playing with different fuel loads at the MP servers I visit daily, and this P-40 E has actually become my main focus of attention, diverting only to the LagG3 or the Fw-190 A3 which feels great and even better after the latest patch.

 

I found that the default fuel distribution between the fuselage, main ( wing ) and reseve tanks and it's impact in terms o CoG and pitch stability throug a higher range of speeds works better at 50%+ instead of the usual 30% I used to takeoff with.

 

I will try with even higher loads, up to 65%, when the reserve tank already starts to get some fuel.

 

But honestly, this really asks, IMO for a fuel management feature to be implemented in future versions of my preferred  flight sim ;-)

Edited February 9, 2017 by jcomm

[JAGER_Batz]

The .50 cals tear planes up in the sim. 4 x .50 cals and extra ammo loadout gives you a sustained punch. The plane is total rubbish apart from that though - in MP I use it just for anti-bomber duties.

 

Well they could give special attention to the P-40, beautiful aircraft, but only serves for jabo missions

[Guest deleted@50488]

Just a follow up regarding the fuel tanks:

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/26074-inconsistencies-andor-errors-p-40e-1-fuel-system/?hl=%2Bp%26%23820840+%2Bfuel+%2Btanks

 

Another good source of in-game and true data, and the example of the Dev Team always doing their best to get the things working as much as possible 100% close to reality !

[BlitzPig_EL]

On a side note this will be a worthy plane to have when the A5M4 comes into play and we can do Flying Tigers missions. 

 

Well for that we would need the Hawk 81, not the Hawk 87 we have in game, and mostly what the AVG saw were Imperial Japanese Army planes, so Ki 27 and Ki 43.

 

Also remember that the engines in the original AVG P40s were hand fitted on a separate line from the normal production V 1710s, and according to the men that built them gave 10% to 15% more bhp than standard ones did, though the fact that no dyno run paperwork exists, these have never been properly modeled in any sim.   The AVG suffered far higher rates of propeller gear box wear/failures because of this, and these failure rates are out there.

Edited February 9, 2017 by BlitzPig_EL

[LukeFF]

Regarding takeoff trim settings, I could use some further help...

 

When I start the P-40E in a mission the elevator trim is set near tha "V" mark with "T.O", but I usually give it a tail-heavy full turn until it returns to the same alignement, but now reading around 99%-100% tail heavy.

 

Is this the correct setting for takeoff, or should it already be set by default when I load the aircraft for a flight, because I think I read that by default the aircraft in IL.2 spawn with cruise trim settings ?

 

The P-40 starts with its trim settings set to neutral. Per the wartime documentation published by the USAAF, the correct takeoff trim was 2 degrees right yaw trim and, as mentioned previously, pitch trim set to the takeoff setting.

[Guest deleted@50488]

The P-40 starts with its trim settings set to neutral. Per the wartime documentation published by the USAAF, the correct takeoff trim was 2 degrees right yaw trim and, as mentioned previously, pitch trim set to the takeoff setting.

 

Yes, but what is that trim setting exactly in terms of the percent scale we read in the Tech Chat ? That's a problem for me, because when it loads, on the rw, that T.O mark is just a slight tail-heavy ( around 2% ) from the neutral position, and it returns there if I rotate the pitch trim wheel all the way, almost a full turn, then reading around 90+% .... 

 

Should I leave it at the 2% or at 90+% ( very tail heavy :-) ) ??

Edited February 9, 2017 by jcomm

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Yes, but what it that trim setting exactly in terms of the percent scale we read in the Tech Chat ? That's a problem for me, because when it loads, on the rw, that T.O mark is just a slight tail-heavy ( around 2% ) from the neutral position, and it returns there if I rotate the pitch trim wheel all the way, almost a full turn, then reading around 90+% .... 

 

This is a decent example of why technochat is a poorly modeled feature.

[unreasonable]

This is a decent example of why technochat is a poorly modeled feature.

 

And a good example of why I never use it. Just use the controls, look at the cockpit instruments and feel/listen to the results: much more "immersive" than worrying about little numbers on a GUI. 

[Farky]

The P-40 starts with its trim settings set to neutral. Per the wartime documentation published by the USAAF, the correct takeoff trim was 2 degrees right yaw trim and, as mentioned previously, pitch trim set to the takeoff setting.

 

As a matter of fact, correct take off trim for P-40E according to the USAAF manuals (Technical Orders) is NEUTRAL . Same setting is prescribed in RAF manual and other documents (such as RAF testing of P-40E). There is a document in NAA ("P 40 E Procedure") where is written -

1. Set elevator trim 3° tail heavy.

2. Set rudder trim 3° right rudder.

However, it's not official Technical Order.

 

"T.O." mark on trim came with P-40F and subsequent models, you are most likely refering to "Pilot training manual for the P-40". Very nice and useful handbook, but it's more of a general familiarization with P-40 than actual manual.

 

To be fair, I have also seen "T.O." on trim in some "modern" P-40Es (in warbirds).

 

 

 

Yes, but what is that trim setting exactly in terms of the percent scale we read in the Tech Chat ? That's a problem for me, because when it loads, on the rw, that T.O mark is just a slight tail-heavy ( around 2% ) from the neutral position, and it returns there if I rotate the pitch trim wheel all the way, almost a full turn, then reading around 90+% .... 

 

Should I leave it at the 2% or at 90+% ( very tail heavy :-) ) ??

 

This is a decent example of why technochat is a poorly modeled feature.

 

 

This is a decent example why we need proper game manual provided by developers. Or at least some check list for every airplane.

[Venturi]

I find the elevator trim to be incredibly unresponsive.

 

Just chalk it up to the idea of "American schoolbus" which seems to have led the development of this plane in IL-2.