Did Hitler really delay the 262 production?

[Lusekofte]

[SYN_Mike77]

Better than anything on (American) TV!

[[DBS]El_Marta]

Great watch.

 

P.S.:

("führious" )

[LukeFF]

No, he did not. Equipping the 262 as a jabo was planned long before the mythical delay by Hitler.

[Lusekofte]

Historians have made maximum collateral damage by Hitler interference, he did interfere , and Galland did not get all of the ME 262. 

It is understandable that when you are about to get invaded from 3 sides a fast fighter bomber is tempting, I think Hitler looked at this the same way as he looked at all his "divisions" in the end. He thought it would be enough to stop them.

Anyway I got fooled by this, I thought he did delay delivery to fighter units. This is why I urge people to check the numbers used in this example before make a opinion, after all not everything on the inter web is true. 

[PatrickAWlson]

Engines delayed the 262 more than anything else.  Very temperamental when they did work, not long lasting, and not very reliable.  

[Lusekofte]

The lack of Nickel and other types of metal made average flying time for each engine only 10 hours. They bought fire if injection of fuel happened too fast, So throttles had to be increased painfully slow, making any acceleration in landing pattern impossible , with deadly outcome if attacked or the had to abort landing. The real importance of the plane was the swept wing design and fuselage in general. Cockpit area was also in many ways copied 

[ZachariasX]

Most of the "lack" was due to misallcation rather the non availability. Another downside of the Nazi oligarchy as political system.

[Solty]

Engines delayed the 262 more than anything else.  Very temperamental when they did work, not long lasting, and not very reliable.  

Exactly that. People say that 262 could be in 43, which to me is just fantasy, just because the engines available were just not reliable enough. Even in 1944 they were not up to standard and could work for 12 hours on average. Me262 was pushed out early because Germany was on its last legs.

[ZachariasX]

What the video is missing out on (as most who do stats on the impact of the Me262) is taking pilot quality into account when assessing kill ratio. Whes he compares 22 kills to 16 losses, these are 22 kills achieved by some of the top 0.1% of all fighter pilots. So you have this handul of the by far most proficient fighter pilots in the world at that time trading blows against the average opposing crew. And with that even the suggested 3:1exchange ratio would have been more than disappointing. (Remember, a similarly score ratio of 2:1 for the "Guests" over Vietnam was frowned upon by the Guest team.)

 

This really gives an impression how doomed the German war effort was at that time. More Me262 would also have implied that less experienced crews would fly it, further reducing its impact. It was neither too little nor too late. It was just over.

[Lusekofte]

I have not checked the numbers, but he claim that total losses and total victories on missions. Regardless what pilots on them. This jet program drained the already small number of experienced and pilots with decent experience in order to operate.

[MiloMorai]

There was about 4-5 times the number of Jumo engines produced than Me262s produced.

[ZachariasX]

There was about 4-5 times the number of Jumo engines produced than Me262s produced.

...meaning that each plane had a theoretical maximum life expectany of about 50 hours. For that it required at least 4 larger service intervals to exchange engines.

 

Edit: This as said, the theoretical maximum. In reality, The Arado and the He-162 were competing for the same engines.

Edited February 12, 2017 by ZachariasX

[MiloMorai]

...meaning that each plane had a theoretical maximum life expectany of about 50 hours. For that it required at least 4 larger service intervals to exchange engines.

 

Edit: This as said, the theoretical maximum. In reality, The Arado and the He-162 were competing for the same engines.

 

The He 162 used BMW 003 engines.

[Feathered_IV]

I think much of the legend of the delayed 262s comes from Galland's post war agenda, asserting that the war would have gone great for Germany if people had just listened to him about everything.

[Lusekofte]

He did spend his a lot of time insisting the Luftwaffe officers did military salutes and not Hitler salute, and other mildly defensive manoeuvres. Totally forgetting that Goering himself had a lot to do with most of the bad stuff the Nazi did. Many in Luftwaffe was sworn Nazis even after the war, like the most known Hans Ulrich Rudel. 

He was easily offended during his consulting time in BOB movie, but I think he was a man of integrity, I believe him when he said he had no wish to take over after Molders . He wanted to fly.

I think being in Staff as a pilot, you see a lot of frustrating bureaucracy and totally wrong priorities  as a fighting pilot narrow view of a total picture. And historical speaking no matter how they prioritise the resources , the one with most human and other resources wins in the end. Taking on Russia and USA at the same time . Well can't be explained , can't be won, maybe delayed. Delayed would be even worse 

[Aap]

 

 

He did spend his a lot of time insisting the Luftwaffe officers did military salutes and not Hitler salute, and other mildly defensive manoeuvres. Totally forgetting that Goering himself had a lot to do with most of the bad stuff the Nazi did.

 

"Göring  himself" does not mean "Galland himself". Most of the top Luftwaffe fighter pilots had close to zero respect towards Göring.

 

 

 

Many in Luftwaffe was sworn Nazis even after the war, like the most known Hans Ulrich Rudel. 

 

These "many" were still a small minority among Luftwaffe, just like in other branches. Some were nazis, most were not. 

[Lusekofte]

Yes they where , my point is they where not absent. But absolutely not in any way so many that they could represent the pilots. I meant Galland´s defensive aggressive attitude. He was a devoted friend with many enemy pilots after the war, I think he was a great man.

Luftwaffe treated their POW with respect included the jewes. There was several aircrews that registered in Stalag Luft as Jewes and they where treated the same as the rest. I am not implying anything when it comes to the Pilots and aircrew of Luftwaffe.

When it comes to Fallschirmjaegers the story is a bit different, But in many ways not at all bad either.

Edited February 13, 2017 by 216th_LuseKofte

[ZachariasX]

The He 162 used BMW 003 engines.

500 engines that could have been in part engines for the 262. They are all hand made goods, not originating from type-specific heavy tools. So it makes not much  difference if you produce an 003 or 004. But maybe a good idea not betting on a single pony, a rampant disease within the the German war industry in their relentless quest for "standardisation" and "standard types".

 

The Jumo 222 was the selected standard engine for bombers, basically a P&W R-2800 designed in a way that "thou shalt not design engines". Talk about delay... they made a grand total of 289 from a promised to be a monthly output of 1000. It in consequence killed about all planed bomber designs from 1942 on and what was left of them were makeshift adjusted variants. Yes, maybe in that sense it was good that they wasted time and money used for those 500 Jumo 003 engines.

[MiloMorai]

500 engines that could have been in part engines for the 262. They are all hand made goods, not originating from type-specific heavy tools. So it makes not much  difference if you produce an 003 or 004. But maybe a good idea not betting on a single pony, a rampant disease within the the German war industry in their relentless quest for "standardisation" and "standard types".

 

The Jumo 222 was the selected standard engine for bombers, basically a P&W R-2800 designed in a way that "thou shalt not design engines". Talk about delay... they made a grand total of 289 from a promised to be a monthly output of 1000. It in consequence killed about all planed bomber designs from 1942 on and what was left of them were makeshift adjusted variants. Yes, maybe in that sense it was good that they wasted time and money used for those 500 Jumo 003 engines.

 

Possibly after the Me262 had been redesigned to accept the 003.

 

Jumo 222 was a 6-bank, 24-cylinder engine.

The R-2800 was a twin row radial (2x9).

 

The Wright R-2160 Tornado was an experimental 7 bank, 42-cylinder.

[ZachariasX]

Possibly after the Me262 had been redesigned to accept the 003.

 

Jumo 222 was a 6-bank, 24-cylinder engine.

The R-2800 was a twin row radial (2x9).

 

The Wright R-2160 Tornado was an experimental 7 bank, 42-cylinder.

Uhm.. this is getting OT.. With the R-2800 I just took the example of an engine with about similar displacement. And when building an engine with that displacement, the R-2800 was a good was a great design choice, whereas these "multi-row" inline engines were almost never a success. The Napier Sabre was the only one that worked eventually, even giving a very high specific power. But engines with that many parts are a nightmare to maintain and margin for error for operating them gets to be very small, making them even more delicate. Even the "successful" Sabre engine got replaced by a radial engine with the Tempest Mk.II and the Sea Fury later on. So, if you are going "all in" on these multi row designs that failed everywhere in the world, then that does spell trouble. So yes, great idea having different types of jet engines.

 

This brings us back on topic. The problem with that is that you would need the proper tooling to produce a lot of them. Sourcing those is a huge task. And when you are producing prototype stage engines, it is questionable whether you should do so. In effect, your production is scaling only directly correlated to the number of trained hands to build them manually. Shop workers who are proficient with that are a scarce commodity.