Jump to content

Impossible to take off with Mig3 since last patch(s)


Recommended Posts

Posted

Impossible to take off with Mig3 since last patch(s)


 


Since last patch the take off with the Mig3 and all Soviet planes is more difficult but for the Mig3 if is become like an impossible challenge?!


I try in some identical and difficult conditions; I take the autumn Moscow map and one of the airfield near Moscow (always the same) 6m/s wind and 2m/s turbulences (I know it is a lot) the game itself decide the direction of the wind and because I fly in expert mode I cannot at start verify the direction of the wind?!  


Now I am ready to start and try to take off?! I tried with the trims the game offers or without, I tried more than hundred times, the result is always the same, propeller bend plane going round and round even if I tried to counter the movements with rudders inputs small or big (never tried brakes because Soviet planes do have all or nothing brakes systems) I tried to give full throttle input or smooth one but to no avail, no change in results, broken plane and engine.


It should not be so difficult to take off with a plane. Or was this a plane that was so prone to take off accidents that more than half of them could never take off?!


I should not ask this question if this phenomenon did not appear since the last patches! And does grow worse with each of them?!


 


 


Landing is now also !mmore difficukt than before but more realism does that to a game.


 


Try it before you criticize and see my PC characteristics below.

Posted (edited)

May be your system? Technique?

 

 I have never flown the Mig before. Read the tech specs in the mission briefing, Moscow autumn map.  Made about ten minutes ago.

 

First try - spin.

 

Second try:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Z7d5APoQog

 

 

It certainly is not easy, but as you can see not impossible at least for me, and I hardly know what I am doing.

 

I would have included the landing as well, but for some reason the gear did not come down   :)  - different system to the Yak perhaps.

 

You have 6/2 wind and turbulence, I just used default 3/1. Perhaps you should try that.

Edited by unreasonable
Posted

mate i try the same settings and i never flew the Mig before, and i could take it off at the second attempt, one big tip lift the tail as soon as you can so you can get rudder control

Posted

Lol...latest patch or not I've never been able to take off with it. Just loves ground rolls!

May be your system? Technique?

 

 I have never flown the Mig before. Read the tech specs in the mission briefing, Moscow autumn map.  Made about ten minutes ago.

 

First try - spin.

 

Second try:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Z7d5APoQog

 

 

It certainly is not easy, but as you can see not impossible at least for me, and I hardly know what I am doing.

 

I would have included the landing as well, but for some reason the gear did not come down   :)  - different system to the Yak perhaps.

 

You have 6/2 wind and turbulence, I just used default 3/1. Perhaps you should try that.

Wow...that's some crazy aileron inputs!

Posted

the latest patch only included AI optimization, new FM for FW190 and the 110G-2.

 

Nothing has happened to the mig-3, but I must say that the mig-3 is one of the hardest planes (in this sim I mean) to take off in.

Posted (edited)

Lol...latest patch or not I've never been able to take off with it. Just loves ground rolls!

 

Wow...that's some crazy aileron inputs!

 

Alert - this is not a training video! :)

 

It is much more squirrely than the Yak which is all I have been flying recently, hence the over control, both elevator [edit] and ailerons. (I have a sensitive stick.... ;))    

Edited by unreasonable
Posted

Alert - this is not a training video! :)

 

It is much more squirrely than the Yak which is all I have been flying recently, hence the over control, both elevator [edit] and ailerons. (I have a sensitive stick.... ;))

 

Well, drinks are on me buddy! You're light years ahead from what I've managed to do with it which is simply end up inverted with lovely wildflower swaying about it in the wind. After a couple of rolls and flips I usually just get into another machine and forget about it. It just seems extreeeemly touchy no matter how softly I try to nurse it after thrashing my inputs around an fairing no better!

gnomechompsky
Posted

The post title is a little sensationalist. It's not impossible but my view is that it is unrealistically difficult. It took me around~100 attempts before I became good at it.

 

The type of runway makes a huge difference and rough runway is extremely tough. I was also playing on wings of liberty the other day on the autumn Moscow map and about 3 players went through around 12 x MIGs in the space of 10 minutes trying to take off in them. (It had become a challenge)

 

I get that it is supposed to be more difficult than other planes but this just doesn't represent a realistic rate of attrition.

 

Then there is the landing, I can put the airframe down very smoothly but nothing will stop it ground spinning when it drops below a certain speed on a rough runway.

 

Looking at this video and it just doesn't compare at all:

 

Posted

i wrote before it took me 2 attempts to take it off, it's not that difficult if you pay attention on what you are doing, and never tried the mig before

  • Upvote 1
=TBAS=Sshadow14
Posted

Video of the real plane dont help much..

They know what they are doing.
We obviously Dont.

gnomechompsky
Posted (edited)

i wrote before it took me 2 attempts to take it off, it's not that difficult if you pay attention on what you are doing, and never tried the mig before

 

 

Ah ok my mistake, your single anecdotal experience entirely refutes everything else.

 

But clearly you did find it difficult because it took you 2 attempts.  How many VVS pilots IRL were allowed to go back into it after ruining a plane on take off?

Edited by gnomechompsky
Posted

Ah ok my mistake, your single anecdotal experience entirely refutes everything else.

 

But clearly you did find it difficult because it took you 2 attempts.  How many VVS pilots IRL were allowed to go back into it after ruining a plane on take off?

i didn't say it isn't, i said that it isn't that difficult

Posted

As I've said in the other thread I find the difficulty in taking off and landing the MiG much too punishing after the improved ground physics were introduced (which was overall great) There's just too little room for any kind of error or being even a bit slow on the response.

 

I eventually learned how to take off consistently, but it took me several hundred attempts and ended up using a method that differes somewhat from the "official" as presented by Han.

 

I still cannot avoid the ground loop at the end of the rollout, despite doing everything by the book.

 

A plane with this little room for pilot error would never see operational service.

Posted

One thing I've found to be extremely helpful in taking off with the Mig is to lower your fuel mix to around 20%. The will effectively lower you engine power, which seems counterproductive but it isn't. The engine on a 20% mix is more than powerful enough to get you off the ground but no so powerful as to produce torquing forces that can make takeoff and taxi so difficult in this plane. The other thing to keep in mind is that the tail wheel doesn't activate immediately on rudder input, you have an effective tail wheel dead zone that you can use while taking off. The trick is to find it and remember just how much play you have in the rudder.

Posted

The post title is a little sensationalist. It's not impossible but my view is that it is unrealistically difficult. It took me around~100 attempts before I became good at it.

 

The type of runway makes a huge difference and rough runway is extremely tough. I was also playing on wings of liberty the other day on the autumn Moscow map and about 3 players went through around 12 x MIGs in the space of 10 minutes trying to take off in them. (It had become a challenge)

 

I get that it is supposed to be more difficult than other planes but this just doesn't represent a realistic rate of attrition.

 

Then there is the landing, I can put the airframe down very smoothly but nothing will stop it ground spinning when it drops below a certain speed on a rough runway.

 

Looking at this video and it just doesn't compare at all:

 

The Mig from that video looks complete different from what i see ingame, in the takeoff at 4:14 there is not much rudderwork, just at the start you see some litle rudder swinging but minor and then it looks almost neutral till the plane lifted off.

Of course it is a bit shaky in the video but if the rudder would swing like ingame we would see it at first glimpse i think.

The guy talks about landing is a problem but not the takeoff, sure i dont know exactly because i dont speak russian and the translation might be off but it makes sense when you look at the takeoff in this video.

The landing looks a bit more difficult but nothing like ingame, i think ingame is much harder than IRL and not only because in real we can feel the plane.

Hopefully this ground behavior and prop effect gets fixed, some planes feel really bad with whobble and swinging around all over the place.

Posted

We have to keep in mind of course, that the "modern" MiGs seen flying in videos all use Allison engines and not the original Mikunin ones.

Posted

Oh i wasnt aware of this, thx for that info, is this true for the one shown in the video?

I thought the guy where interviewed because he flys the real deal. :)

Posted

Oh i wasnt aware of this, thx for that info, is this true for the one shown in the video?

I thought the guy where interviewed because he flys the real deal. :)

 

AFAIK there are no planes flying around with working Mikunin engines, neither IL-2s nor MiG-3s, all use Allisons (Mikunins are next to impossible to get spare parts for)

 

In truth, he is flying something fairly close to the real deal, at least in terms of flight characteristics. 

Posted (edited)

I normally don't loop (it still does that very very easily) on landing but the swing on takeoff (once tailwheel lifts) is incredibly vicious and needs to be countered quickly - this seems quite a bit off to me.

Edited by 216th_Jordan
Posted

As an aerobatic pilot in real life, after the first attempt at take off in an a/c that was as twitchy as the Mig taking off and landing I would never go near it again.

  • Upvote 3
Posted

Back in the old days when I use to fly Russian, the mig was never this hard to take off in...

Posted

Back in the old days when I use to fly Russian, the mig was never this hard to take off in...

 

Nope. The change happened with the new ground physics in 2.004.

Posted

AFAIK there are no planes flying around with working Mikunin engines, neither IL-2s nor MiG-3s, all use Allisons (Mikunins are next to impossible to get spare parts for)

 

In truth, he is flying something fairly close to the real deal, at least in terms of flight characteristics.

There are three that I know of. Red 65/Za Rodinu and White 17 use Allison engines with opposite prop rotation. White 1 has an AM-38 from an Il-2 (which was tested at factory during WW2 and fitted in the field in unknown numbers because the AM-38 gave the MiG-3 much better performance at lower altitudes) which makes it the most original complete restored MiG-3.

Posted

Nope. The change happened with the new ground physics in 2.004.

 

 

Well, you know how we roll round here.  If you guys can collectively dig around in the archives and come up with a few obscure scraps of wind tunnel data circa 1940-41, I'm sure the devs will be happy to have a look.

Posted (edited)

So I saw this topic and had to try taking off with MiG-3 for the first time ever. Succeeded on the first try, turned the plane around and landed without problems on the first try. Then did the same with max wind and turbulence, though this time I broke the propeller on landing, but that was my fault, not the MiG's. I overshot the field first time so I made a second approach against the sun, and didn't come straight to the runway.

 

I used to have a lot of problems with LaGG-3. I found out that you have to increase the throttle incrementally during take-off. If you go straight to 100% the plane just starts spinning like crazy on the ground. Add no sudden movements and you're good to go.

 

Of course I have no idea are any of these behaviours historical, it's true that the other planes I have tried are much easier to take off.

Edited by TetraD
  • 1CGS
Posted

Well, you know how we roll round here.  If you guys can collectively dig around in the archives and come up with a few obscure scraps of wind tunnel data circa 1940-41, I'm sure the devs will be happy to have a look.

 

...and snarkiness like that doesn't help anything.

  • Upvote 1
Posted (edited)

 

Well, you know how we roll round here. If you guys can collectively dig around in the archives and come up with a few obscure scraps of wind tunnel data circa 1940-41, I'm sure the devs will be happy to have a look.

Yeah, I'm not sure wind tunnel data will make much difference in this case, since we're talking about the modeling of ground physics.

 

And just to make it extra-special clear: I love the changes in 2.004. Overall it was a great improvement to ground handling, it just happened to affect the MiG in this rather extreme way.

 

And no, of course we don't have any test data, because this like behavior during ground looping was not something that was regularly tested. However, we can see restored MiGs flying today, and unlike the actual flying, the ground handling, take off and landing are much more similar to real WW2 conditions (at least if we fly off concrete runways) And we can observe, that neither take off nor landing looks anything like what we have to do in game.

Edited by Finkeren
=TBAS=Sshadow14
Posted

A is the plane broken? (if so make a proper bug report)
If not then anyone tried getting the original PoH for the mig 3?

Posted

The question would be why groundhandling is so much worse in the mig compared to others, where is it coming from? Looking at it from a Systemtheoretical pov it is incredibly instable.

 

I had the idea that mass moment of inertia further away from the CG could be too little which causes the plane to swing around too easily. As the base formula is I ~ m*r^2 (r from CG) it can easily be seen that the distance from the CG has a servere effect.

Posted (edited)

May be your system? Technique?

 

####

 

You have 6/2 wind and turbulence, I just used default 3/1. Perhaps you should try that.

 

You did keep the 3/1 Wind settings that makes a huge difference!

At 6/7/8 Wind strength and 1 Wind turbulence I can take off without any difficulties!

But once I add one or worse two to this turbulence factor it is impossible and I tried a hundred times with many different methods.

Like full power or slow build-up of engine power, adding or removing trims (all or some) nothing does solve the problem.

I Wonder if the Mig 3 could fly at all?! in the game with traverse winds I can answer no It could not take off!

Landing is not a problem but keeping it strait after landing is ?! With the same wind conditions that is. But you should try the La5 for this, horrible.

​And yes it is maybe not the last patch but one of the previous (2.004) ones, my mistake, excuse me for this!

:salute:

Edited by senseispcc
Posted

To me there is nothing that one cannot overcome through training with the Mig3 FM. Aircraft seemed a lot more challenging to fly in reality that in the game. I believe most of the aircraft we have are too easy to land and take of but that maybe the Mig is closer to the real thing.

 

"During whole years, winter and summer alike, through any kind of weather, they taught us  to land in the T, throttle cut, and to land the aircraft more or less into that T mark. Making use of the engine at that moment was considered a gross infraction to the instructions. Maneuvering the aircraft  and firing its guns were considered secondary compared to that element of flight.

 

And despite all this, not all pilots managed to land without "trouble/difficulty".

 

My poor translation attempt of Alexander Pokryshkin, in Sky of War, Chapter 3, p.70

 

The Mig is very far from being "broken". I suspect its take off/landing characteristics could be the most accurate in the sim. Remember the dev video about the Mig flown by Barsuk?

 

 However, we can see restored MiGs flying today, and unlike the actual flying, the ground handling, take off and landing are much more similar to real WW2 conditions (at least if we fly off concrete runways) And we can observe, that neither take off nor landing looks anything like what we have to do in game.

 

Right, but the Mig could be flown by an extremely good pilot, so that doesn't tell us much IMHO. I saw some videos too, and of course the interview by Barsuk (it is difficult to control in the landing according to him "the principal problem of this fighter is landing", with his high skills he uses the word difficult to describe landing.

Posted

To me there is nothing that one cannot overcome through training with the Mig3 FM. Aircraft seemed a lot more challenging to fly in reality that in the game. I believe most of the aircraft we have are too easy to land and take of but that maybe the Mig is closer to the real thing.

 

 

I would actually think the other way around. In a simulator you have very limited senses compared to the real world. Landing is still very hard in this sim, but of course it can be mastered.

 

However I cannot say if it is correctly modelled in the Mig, it obviosly was a challenge for even the most seasoned pilots, so it should not be easy, but there are some moments when this thing becomes incontrollable within half a second of no control input, which just seems very odd.

Posted

I'm not saying that it's perfect, but it's not true that it's not possible to take-off with side wind. Just did a test with highest possible wind and turbulence settings (at which this plane probably really didn't take-off in WW2, at least not from a straight runway). Not pretty, but also not impossible. And this was first try, could probably do a bit better with more practice, because i haven't flow the Mig-3 in a while.

 

 

I think it would help if people would upload videos or tracks of their tries to figure out what they are doing wrong.

Posted

Sorry to contradict you but this a simulation and we in this virtual world do not have the input of the plane, only the visual input can help us, why is it that with the German (axis) planes it is easy in any conditions and with the two most powerful Soviet planes the Mig 3 and the La 5 it is very difficult (La 5) or nearly impossible (Mig 3)?! 

Try this with the La5;

take the Lapino summer map (one airfield to take off from) set Wind condition to 6 and turbulences to 2 or 3, ok!

now begin the mission on the runway and set your power input to 20%! Result your Aircraft does small circles or destroy itself?

Now try the same with a FW-190 and give me the result?!

Soviet planes did not take off when weather was bad?!  They did more often than the German ones because they knew how technically and had the experience of long and hard winters.

The mig 3 was a difficult plane to fly?! Maybe but this is a simulation not reality?

Tthe ME or BF 109 was also a pilot killer even more so at take off and landings why is it so easy in this simulation?!


As an aerobatic pilot in real life, after the first attempt at take off in an a/c that was as twitchy as the Mig taking off and landing I would never go near it again.

 

That is the only option left for the "players" ?!

Posted (edited)

You did keep the 3/1 Wind settings that makes a huge difference!

At 6/7/8 Wind strength and 1 Wind turbulence I can take off without any difficulties!

But once I add one or worse two to this turbulence factor it is impossible and I tried a hundred times with many different methods.

Like full power or slow build-up of engine power, adding or removing trims (all or some) nothing does solve the problem.

I Wonder if the Mig 3 could fly at all?! in the game with traverse winds I can answer no It could not take off!

Landing is not a problem but keeping it strait after landing is ?! With the same wind conditions that is. But you should try the La5 for this, horrible.

​And yes it is maybe not the last patch but one of the previous (2.004) ones, my mistake, excuse me for this!

:salute:

 

I have just tried other conditions, and I had no success for a while. However:

 

I do not think the turbulence is the problem, (although that makes landing uncomfortable) but the wind, particularly the wind direction. My observations:

 

1) The plane wants to swing into the wind as the tail rises, much more obviously as the wind speed is increased.

2) The effect is severe even with a fairly small crosswind

3) The map I was using (bottom left hand corner of Moscow summer/autumn) was giving me a wind direction about 30 degrees off my direction at game start, ie coming at me from my 1 o'clock

4) As the nose rises it is very hard to get more left rudder on quickly and accurately enough to control the swing to the right without ground looping.

 

The easy solution is to get into free camera mode and find the control tower, taxi over to it and line up directly into the wind before your start up run, and make sure you maintain your heading exactly as you accelerate.

You cannot just turn into the wind at your start position on this map - there is a copse of trees waiting for you. 

 

Once I had done that I was able to take-off with maximum wind and turbulence with no more difficulty than with zero wind.   :fly:

I am sure I would find this exceptionally difficult in any conditions if I did not have rudder pedals but used a twist stick. Also, in playing in game, lining up into the wind might not be an option, depending on the airfield, although we seldom get given high wind-speeds or turbulence in SP missions or the few MP maps I have played. So I can see why so many people crash - including me. 

 

I do not know if the game is accurate or not, but I think the Mig-3 did operate under restrictions for wind speed because of the number of accidents. I will have to dig out my copy of Gordon and see if he has anything on this. edit - He does not, except general comments about how tricky it was to fly and high accident rate. Perhaps one of the Russian reading historians has something relevant.

Edited by unreasonable
Posted (edited)

 

 

 

 

Swing at 0:13 is exactly what I mean.

Given that the engine sits quite a bit forward of the CG I think this is too severe.

Edited by 216th_Jordan
Posted (edited)

The solution is more strange than I did think!

First increase the fuel input to 91%. Per default it is 40%. !!!

Second open the "water cooling" to at least 70% so your engine does not over heat during take-off.

Third and most important increase the negative trim to -47 + or - 2 or 4 % to counter act the engine.

Then accelerate in a steady but slow motion of the throttle by counter acting by little rudder actions the movements right and left of the plane.

It works every time even if the turbulences are at maximum and Wind at minimum. Strange is it not?!

Set your trims to neutral during flight.

Landings are still tricky and take care to trim your Mig 3 to land! 

:rolleyes:  :salute:

 

 

I have broken a lot of planes to find this !

Edited by senseispcc
Posted

Swing at 0:13 is exactly what I mean. Given that the engine sits quite a bit forward of the CG I think this is too severe.

I actually let it swing to the right by reducing rudder input, because i was coming off the runway. Normally you can compensate for the swing by increasing left rudder input a bit just when the tail lifts.

 

Try this with the La5;

That's actually a different issue and it has been mentioned on the DD 120. That's not really comparable to the Mig-3.

32. Conduct additional research of LaGG-3 and La-5 takeoff ability with strong side wind;

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/168-developer-diary/page-4?do=findComment&comment=326490

Posted (edited)

I actually let it swing to the right by reducing rudder input, because i was coming off the runway. Normally you can compensate for the swing by increasing left rudder input a bit just when the tail lifts.

 

 

I know, it is very visible, but the turn acceleration is too high, there should be quite a momentum against that movement in reality - of course we have to live with some simplifications but here is where it could show.

 

I think we need to keep 2 things in mind:

1.) Yes the Mig-3 is controllable with skill and can be succesfully landed or taken of with appropriate measures.

2.) That we can land or take off in it does not mean that it represents the real plane accurately - a point where we have little data and a lot of feel - hence my theory about mass moment of inertia (from now on MMoI) which could explain some results.

 

My theory in detail:

All parts in this sim are objects and most have weight associated with them, it is however very unlikely that they feature a mass that is spread on a volume but rather a mass that is centered in the specific CG of that part, because otherwise there would be even more processing power needed. Now to further abstract that model we can think of a modelled plane as a system of nodes with different properties. As the engine likely is one part modelled it will also have all its weight in one point in contrast to its weight spread over all its volume. The weight being concentrated in one point however drastically decreases mass moment of inertia (MMoI) as the furthest part of the engine from total CG of the plane would have the most influence on its counter momentum. ( I ~ m*r^2)

 

Take the video below as an example: The sticks are lightweight  but have a high mass moment of inertia for the walker due to their lenght. A simplified simulation of such a stick model would create 3 nodes at 1/4, 2/4 and 3/4th the lenght of the stick (example: real stick where very minus sign represents a part with volumetric mass:  >----------< and the stick as node model where only the x-signs represent the mass in a specific point: >--x--x--x--< )and assign 1/3rd of the weight to all of them. The 1/3rd at the center (>--x--x--x--<) would have absolutely no effect on the MMoI (r = 0) while the other 2 (>--x--x--x--<)would also create a smaller MMoI than the real stick due to their position on half the radius of the stick. (r = 1/2) If you would want to make this stick simulation more accurate you would have to create more smaller nodes with less weight - that however will need more calculation power. 

On some systems this model deficiency would show more than on others which are, lets say, more stable by design.

 

Edited by 216th_Jordan
6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann
Posted (edited)

OK guys, I tried it myself, had very little trouble, and really, all the advice Impressions and advice I can give are:

 

These are derived from RL flying Taildraggers and works flawlessly on the MiG-3. Also, condider that the Tailwheel is Comically undersized on the MiG, basically a WWI style Tailskid with a little Roller attached.

 

Take-Off: 

-Pull Back on the Stick, really Push the tail down to stabilize your initial run, Ease Forward above 120kph and Lift-Off at 160+.

-Go Full Power Swiftly, the Slow Increase actually makes it more difficult. Use Nominal Power for Take-Off (so no Boosted Mode)

-Only ever use Small and Smooth amounts of Corrective Left Rudder. No Big, "Digital" Movements and no Right Rudder, otherwise you will Overcorrect, and the High Ground Angle, ineffective Rudder, Far Forward Main Gear and Tiny Tailwheel will kill you.

 

Apply these Rules and you will be fine. 

 

Landing (Three Pointer) (Make sure you Land with Low Fuel, as you would after a Mission. Makes it all a bit easier.)

-Full Flaps, Gear out TRIM TAILHEAVY

-Approach at 180 kph

-Flare down to 150-160 and go Further and Further Back on the Stick until you touch down in a three-pointer

-Keep Full Backpressure while you stand hard on the Brakes. 

 

 

Two-Wheel Landings really only work on Asphalt. 

 

mig-3_17_of_28.jpg

Edited by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...