We are getting what is essentially an La-5F; Awesome; Further Implications

[Gambit21]

What I like about the real La-5F and makes it one of my favourite WW2 fighrers is the cut down rear fuselage and the aerodynamic improvements over the early La-5. Both of which we're not getting with just the different engine. So while it will be a noticeable improvement in terms of performance, it doesn't mean much to me.

So performance/how well the aircraft does it's job doesn't mean much - rather it's what it looks like?

[216th_Jordan]

So performance/how well the aircraft does it's job doesn't mean much - rather it's what it looks like?

 

Like the Yak-1 and the Yak-1B. Yak-1B is still a Yak-1 but so optimized that it performs a lot better with the same engine.

Our La-5F version will just have an unlocked Boost time.

Edited February 7, 2017 by 216th_Jordan

[JtD]

The La-5F without the cut-down fuselage and new canopy is just as "real" as the more well-known design.

Yes, but various depections of the La-5F in some media are somewhat unreal. As a sidenote, not every batch is 100 planes.

 

So performance/how well the aircraft does it's job doesn't mean much - rather it's what it looks like?

A) "La-5F" not "aircraft".

B) "Mean much to me" not "mean much". 5 minutes or forever will make a less than 1% difference for me in game. Other people will certainly find it more useful.

C) "Aerodynamic refinements and cut down fuselage" not "the looks". Obviously, a cut down rear fuselage offers a better vision towards the rear and improves aerodynamics will have a far larger effect on flight performance than being able to run the highest power setting for a longer time. Both changes are tremendous improvements in terms of combat performance, which is why the Soviets made them back in the day.

D) Looks matter. If I check my favourite WW2 aircraft, they all are interesting in terms of engineering and good looking (in my eyes, anyway), however, they weren't necessarily the best at killing thousands of people in a global war.

So, thanks for asking, happy to clarify.

[Gambit21]

Touched a nerve?

[71st_AH_Mastiff]

Jason - if it matters, you may be surprised at what some of us will pay for "DLC" additions for this sim if you may have time to do so in the future.

 

For example - I would pay $1.99 for "DLC" that adds simply drop tanks to FW190 or something like that (this is just an example). Or I will pay for G-series or F-series FW190 that may not drain too many resources from development but still bring money into the project.

 

Conversely, I would pay for La5F with F-series engine and later design canopy, etc. for some reasonable amount of money.

 

I would be curious to see who would be willing to support something like this. IMO, it would serve (2) purposes:

 

1. Give the consumer the "smaller" add-ons they would like, while you bring an influx of $$ to the sim.

2. Give us sim pilots the opportunity to further support development by paying for DLC.

 

Just a thought.

micro A/C DLC I would!

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

If the dev's initial statement for their marketing model holds there is no chance we'll get small aircraft mods like the M-82F as paid content due to their (supposedly bad) expirience with the RoF marketing model.

[Finkeren]

Yes, but various depections of the La-5F in some media are somewhat unreal. As a sidenote, not every batch is 100 planes.

 

I know, but I supposed it was thereabouts. Did the batch sizes vary a lot?

[Sgt_Joch]

I guess I could've misunderstood Gordon. I took it to mean, that the cut-down fuselage was introduced on the 9th batch after the M-82F was introduced, which would give us 800 La-5Fs with the old canopy.

 

ok, thanks. I admit Gordon's is hard to decipher. I read the passage a few times last night and it is clear as mud.

 

Since the M82F and the new fuselage were being worked on separately, at least according to Gordon, I suppose it is possible some of the late  series 8 had the M82F. 

[Gambit21]

I'm very happy to be getting this variant.

Now an upgrade is possible in the middle of a SP campaign.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

A Proper Late Model La-5F wouldn't be a Micro DLC, just a Regular one like the Yak-1b or maybe as like a 5-10$ Add-On to the Original La-5, so a Checkmark Basically. 

Maybe Reduce Original La-5 to 15$ and make the La-5F Modifications a 10$ Checkmark Upgrade. 

[Sgt_Joch]

so, re read Gordon/Khazanov. The La-5 series 9 with the cut down rear deck was put in production in November 1942 while the M-82F engine started being installed on production AC in January 1943, so its doubtful any series 8 had the M-82F engine, unless the Devs have access to other info.

 

The series 9 also incorporated other improvements, such as lighter weight (150 kg less); various structural improvements; various changes to improve control and maneuverability, such as a new control column, revised flaps, trim tabs and control surfaces and also eliminating the wingtip fuel tanks.to improve roll rate.

 

Again, I am happy to be getting the new engine, but I would gladly pay to have an actual La-5"F" as an extra collector plane. It would fit right into the Kuban time frame.

[Finkeren]

so, re read Gordon/Khazanov. The La-5 series 9 with the cut down rear deck was put in production in November 1942 while the M-82F engine started being installed on production AC in January 1943, so its doubtful any series 8 had the M-82F engine, unless the Devs have access to other info.

 

The series 9 also incorporated other improvements, such as lighter weight (150 kg less); various structural improvements; various changes to improve control and maneuverability, such as a new control column, revised flaps, trim tabs and control surfaces and also eliminating the wingtip fuel tanks.to improve roll rate.

 

Again, I am happy to be getting the new engine, but I would gladly pay to have an actual La-5"F" as an extra collector plane. It would fit right into the Kuban time frame.

Oh good thing you still had the book to look it up. If what you said is right, then the true La-5F really should have the cut-down fuselage, right? And then our "new" aircraft would represent and old La-5 retrofitted with the M-82F?

[Brano]

There was prototyp built in late november 1942 with new canopy and lowered rear fuselage. Serial production,as Danil wrote before ,started from series 26,which was april 1943 as far as I remember. Dont rely solely on that book. Many inaccuracies in there. Or misinterpretations. Or both.

[unreasonable]

so, re read Gordon/Khazanov. The La-5 series 9 with the cut down rear deck was put in production in November 1942 while the M-82F engine started being installed on production AC in January 1943, so its doubtful any series 8 had the M-82F engine, unless the Devs have access to other info.

 

The series 9 also incorporated other improvements, such as lighter weight (150 kg less); various structural improvements; various changes to improve control and maneuverability, such as a new control column, revised flaps, trim tabs and control surfaces and also eliminating the wingtip fuel tanks.to improve roll rate.

 

Again, I am happy to be getting the new engine, but I would gladly pay to have an actual La-5"F" as an extra collector plane. It would fit right into the Kuban time frame.

 

But Gordon's "Soviet Air Power in WW2" also has a colour picture of an "early production "razor back" La-5F - page 228. Perhaps a miss-attribution.?

 

When he says "after November 1942" it may simply mean that that is when the cut down version started to be phased in - but there may have been a mismatch in airframes and engine production so that there were some razor backs still needing engines when the M-82F came on line. Would not be the first time.

Dont rely solely on that book. Many inaccuracies in there. Or misinterpretations. Or both.

 

You may well be right - but it is the only detailed source I have in English!

[Finkeren]

There was prototyp built in late november 1942 with new canopy and lowered rear fuselage. Serial production,as Danil wrote before ,started from series 26,which was april 1943 as far as I remember. Dont rely solely on that book. Many inaccuracies in there. Or misinterpretations. Or both.

Brano: You're one of the most well-read on the subject: Have you got any idea about how many La-5Fs sere produced with the old canopy and rear fuselage?

[Sgt_Joch]

so the exact quote from Gordon/Khazanov (p. 44) is:

 

"To improve the pilot's view, from the ninth batch (November 1942) the fighter was given a lower dorsal rear fuselage fairing and a teardrop canopy.."

 

Again, I am not surprised there is contradictory info. I wish it was easier to get accurate technical info on Russian planes.

 

 

p.s. - Russian Aviation site has similar info for what it is worth:

 

 

 

Boosted M-82F was installed on some batches of production aircraft. Those differed by Cyrillic 'F' painted on the engine cowling. All M-82F powered had cut-down upper fuselage, and those aircraft are often referred as La-5F. But this is not an official designation and number of 'Lavochkins' with all-around canopy had an original M-82 engine.

 

http://ram-home.com/ram-old/la-5.html

Edited February 8, 2017 by Sgt_Joch

[TP_Silk]

I know this isn't really the case, but this thread is almost starting to look like "reasons NOT to give us the new engine mod". I know that what you guys really want is the full La-5F (or better yet the FN), so don't bite my head off, I'm just taking a tongue-in-cheek look at the discussion over recent posts.

[JtD]

p.s. - Russian Aviation site has similar info for what it is worth:

That's not accurate, I've seen photographs of La-5F with standard fuselage, be it re-fits or off the production line, but not all M-82F powered La-5 had the cut down fuselage. I think the timeline outlined by Brano is very reasonable.

[Brano]

Sorry,it was from 22 series (not 26) as La-5F with new canopy,lowered rear fuselage and 3-fuel tank configuration. According mother plant Zavod Nr.21 codification this was Type 39. Production in april 43 as stated before.

Type 37 was with high gargot and 5-fuel tanks configuration. Till january 1943 with M-82A engine,but with intermediate period from dec 1942 allready with M-82F. There is no precise date to be set. They simply ramp down production of previous model and ramped up the new one.So first M-82F were most probably somewhere in-between 9 and 10 series in Dec 1942 with 108 pcs produced.

There were probably no La-5F type 39 deployed over Kuban till the end of main aerial fights (beginning of june 43) According recent research of destroyed VVS fighters there is latest series 18 mentioned in records. Which was still type 37.

So for Kuban,till june 43,we have roughly series 13-17 flying there.

[Brano]

Brano: You're one of the most well-read on the subject: Have you got any idea about how many La-5Fs sere produced with the old canopy and rear fuselage?

Difficult to round up. But if we take 108 type 37 built in Dec 42 and total 4039 La-5F built in 43 (Zavod 21,31,99 and 381 total) and that we have 10 series of usually 99 pcs each in 43 for type 37,it could be somewhere around 1100 La-5F type 37 built all together. My estimation,not words carved in stone

 

EDIT:

Just for explanation of the codification of Zavod nr.21. In general it reffered to the fuselage/wings configuration.

 

Type 37 = first La-5s with high gargot,5-fuel tank configuration,wing with slats and wooden main spars

For this fuselage/wing configuration you could have:

a) M-82A engine

b) M-82F engine

 

Type 39 = La-5 with lowered rear fuselage,new canopy,3-fuel tank config.,wing with slats and wooden main spars

For this fuselage/wing configuration you could have installed:

a) M-82F engine

b) M-82FNV (renamed later after chief constructor of Zavod Nr.19 A.Shvecov to ASh-82FN,V was ommited) where FNV ment ''Forsyrovanyi s Neposredstvenym Vpryskom'' = with direct fuel injection

 

Type 41 = La-5 with lowered rear fuselage,new canopy,3-fuel tank config.,wing with slats and mixed steel/duraluminium main spars. Etalon of mid 1944 production.

Only Ash-82FN installed

 

Type 43 = La-5 UTI = two seater variant advanced trainer,(re)built only in 28 pcs and in fact never passed state trials. 9 pcs were rebuilt from single seat La-5F and 19 from La-5FN. Aircrafts were provided by Zavod Nr.21 and rebuilds done in Zavod Nr.163 in Penza .

Interesting point is about La-5 UTI used in 1st Czechoslovak Independent Fighter Regiment. All of its 4 UTIs were registered as Type 39 according serial number,which shows that they were rebuilt from single seaters. Type 43 was probably never used as it was never produced in series.

Edited February 8, 2017 by Brano