4K Template Quality...

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Out of curiosity, do the "big dawgs" in skinning/template creation work together on sharing reference materials, artistic styles and other resources?

 

I ask because it seems like the 4K templates are all over the place as far as art style, accuracy and quality... One bonus of the previous 2K templates is that they were all created in a consistent manner, probably by the same artist, and didn't have major variations in quality/design.

Edited January 30, 2017 by 4./JG52_Space_Ghost

[Original_Uwe]

I wouldn't even say the 2K templates were consistent.

Compare the templates for the 109's to the one for the 190, huge difference in quality and detail.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Depends on what kind of 'consistency' you're looking for. Copying each others' content certainly isn't and every artist has his own taste and techniqs.

 

Also there's the problem with Photoshop vs Gimp which are not 100% compatible so it's difficult to come up with a 'consistent' solution that works well for both.

 

Personally I'm trying to go by the original templates but do personal changes / additions as required. The Ju 52 template I'm working on for example will get many new feautures that were not included in the official 2k template because of the resolution being unsifficient to model such detail.

[BOO]

Im with UWE - the originals were all over place in terms of style and quality and where almost certainly not created by the same artist - at least not the same artist in the same state of mind!  (look at how many 109F> skins have the obvious stripe down their nose resultant from a layer not being worked up correctly or the completely different approach to paint chipping the E7 takes, as for the 110- wasn't that a clod skin it was based on originally? - looks like it given the lack of bump mapping on the nacelles)  

 

Im also with Skuka. Everyone has their own take. Long live originality! 

 

Take what you like, leave what you dont and if you truly are that bothered, do whatever you need to do yourself and learn a skill the community may even benefit from. 

 

The work so far by ICDP, Stuka and BHH (forgive me i only do LW) has been excellent. 

 

BOO

[Original_Uwe]

Agreed. I haven't taken a look at BHH 4K 109 template yet but the 190 by ICDP might be one of the best templates I've ever used.

And what line down the nose of the 109F are you talking about? I'm drawing a blank lol.

Edited January 30, 2017 by 1./JG54_Uwe

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

ICDP's templates are supreme and I like 5tuka's attention to the smaller details.

 

My biggest gripe is that different artists end up with different results like very glossy surfaces, very dark and pronounced panel lines that appear almost cartoony, very different color pallets, etc.

 

I don't mean this as any insult to the very talented graphic artists in the community who are doing great work and regardless of whether or not I like the specific flavor/style of template, credit is given where credit is due - you guys do things I'm not capable of doing on my own so thanks.

[BOO]

everything can be adjusted to taste though

 

RLM colours are very subjective as you know. 

 

Its all good. 

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

My biggest gripe is that different artists end up with different results like very glossy surfaces, very dark and pronounced panel lines that appear almost cartoony, very different color pallets, etc.

No offense taken, I welcome any critique.

 

My template uses the official colour palette provided by devs in their original templates. The glossy finish (less glossy than the original btw) was also sth I did to make it similar to the work provided by the devs as opposed to what my arstyle would be. However, I'll probably update the template i time anyway after finishing the 52 so I'll take note of that.

[DetCord12B]

As someone that does this type of work professionally on occasion for FS developers, ICDP's 190 template and his others are the best I've ever come across. The level of quality is simply unparalleled, and that's counting official materials from the likes of PMDG, AS 319 and others. If he isn't doing this type of work professionally, he should be.

 

 

RLM colours are very subjective as you know. 

 

It's kinda ridiculous isn't it? Reference materials are hit and miss and always different from one source to another. I understand that the paints came from a lot of different contractors during the war, its just kinda insane to think that two birds off an assembly line together could be painted in the same pattern but use wildly different colors.

Edited January 31, 2017 by detcord12b

[BlackHellHound1]

 

 

It's kinda ridiculous isn't it? Reference materials are hit and miss and always different from one source to another. I understand that the paints came from a lot of different contractors during the war, its just kinda insane to think that two birds off an assembly line together could be painted in the same pattern but use wildly different colors.

 

It is indeed a bit strange if such a thing happens. However, it is not completely impossible.

When doing research for my RLM colours. I learned something quite interesting.

Before the war, the Luftwaffe had to buy a lot of paint for the planes it was building to expand its fleet. They could not buy enough quality paint which led to large quantities of low-grade paint pigment. Resulting in some variety in colours depending on the factory. During the war, this only became worse. The war made it incredibly hard to make pigment. Let alone high-quality pigment. As a result, The actual colours could vary quite a bit from day to day depending on what pigments were available. 

 

It would be completely justified to have some variation from plane to plane. Just make sure you don't go completely overboard and use a completely different colour.

 

BlackHellHound1

 

[BOO]

Then there is always the "Original Paint Chip" - usually comes with little probity and is held up as the holy grail until the next "Original Paint Chip" comes along. 

 

Scaling alters the colour a lot as well as does the lighting in game. When you then take into account the effects of UV, dust, original finish quality, field applications and the "simmonizing" that some ground crews did......its a veritable smorgasbord :-) 

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

It's also worth noting how colours were actually produced. Back in the day the RLM send "Farbkarten" (Printed colour palettes) to the factories which than tried to mix colours as close as possible to the printed refference. This process certainly was not totally uniform and so it's assumable that different factories ended up with slight colour variations. Hence why it's hard to come up with a "perfect" colour.

 

RLM 70 (Black Green) and RLM71 (Dark Green) have among the most variations of coulours spread all across the internet so it was hard for me to find a realistic tone. In the end I took various black and white photographies to determine the contrast between the 2 colours and adjusted hue to match that of coloured pictures of original survivours. The result was sth very close to the colours used by 777 which I eventually settled on.

Edited February 1, 2017 by 6./ZG26_5tuka

[ICDP]

The problems with "official" colours is that matching too closely to one source, will mean it doesn't match another source .  There a lot of factors to be considered.

 

• Not all factories got the same colours from the same paint supplier
• Availability (especially for LW colours during strategic bombing campaign).  I mean they are not going to stop AC production because the correct RLM colour is not available.  So close enough would do in many cases.
• How old and worn is the aircraft you are using as a reference?
• Did the squadron using the AC touch it up or overpaint it with whatever paint they had to match their current location?
• Was the AC dirty in the photos or just cleaned?
• Scale effect.  You can match a colour perfectly and it looks very wrong on your PC monitor due to scale.
• If using a photos as a reference, was it a nice clear day or overcast and rainy?

 

For example, I will find a source for a colour that is close enough, then I will adjust brightness and/or saturation slightly to make it look "right".  This may sound like a contradiction but sometimes exact matches look very wrong on a PC screen.  Take the bright red used on Soviet stars, or the almost black used in LW markings, or the yellow ID paint colour.  Using perfect matches (which again vary depending upon source) makes these colours look far too saturated compared to how they look in real life IMHO.

 

So if you find a skin with a slightly different shade of RLM 70 or 71, neither is wrong.

Edited February 1, 2017 by ICDP

[BOO]

and then there is the type of colour film used and its development (was it agfa that turned olive drab into a blue??)

 

for me, if it feels right, it is right. 

[Legioneod]

As someone that does this type of work professionally on occasion for FS developers, ICDP's 190 template and his others are the best I've ever come across. The level of quality is simply unparalleled, and that's counting official materials from the likes of PMDG, AS 319 and others. If he isn't doing this type of work professionally, he should be.

 

Agreed, when I opened the 4k template in PS I was amazed at the quality. Brush lag is a bit of a problem for me though, even though I have good specs.

[BOO]

Agreed, when I opened the 4k template in PS I was amazed at the quality. Brush lag is a bit of a problem for me though, even though I have good specs.

ah its not lagging - its just taking in all that goodness :-)

[Legioneod]

ah its not lagging - its just taking in all that goodness :-)

Makes sense. Anyone know of any fix for the brush lag? I've tried everything but it's still lagging ever so slightly.

 

It's not unbearable but it's kinda unbearable.

 

Also my .dds plugin isn't working for photoshop, trying to figure out a fix for it.

 

Sorry to be off topic.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Legioneod

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Could we just crowdfund for ICDP to create all of the templates?

 

I'll give ya a dollar! 

[Original_Uwe]

You know, while we're all here-I'd like to make the jump from gimp to PS. What's the best way to do it? Is there a PS version that isn't expensive as hell?

Could we just crowdfund for ICDP to create all of the templates?

 

I'll give ya a dollar! 

I'm in too

[Legioneod]

You know, while we're all here-I'd like to make the jump from gimp to PS. What's the best way to do it? Is there a PS version that isn't expensive as hell?

 

I'm in too

I just started using PS. It's cheap, 9 bucks a month.

 

Imo gimp is easier to use even though it doesn't have as many tools. I guess PS just takes getting used to.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Legioneod

[DetCord12B]

Could we just crowdfund for ICDP to create all of the templates?

 

I'll give ya a dollar! 

 

While I love his work, I think BHH did an great job on the 109's. The thin-lines and fuse specs are not only excellent but are incredibly accurate as well. I think a better option would be to have these template makers set up individual PayPal donation accounts. It's what I did and it works quite well.

 

For those of you thinking of making a jump to CC, I have a professional partnership with them and can offer discounts where applicable. I'll have to check the status and qualifications for that though.

[Original_Uwe]

Very interested.

I'm not looking forward to learning PS but I think it's time. Certain things about gimp are becoming bothersome and I know PS can do more.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

-snip-

 

I think a better option would be to have these template makers set up individual PayPal donation accounts.

 

-snip-

 

 

This isn't a terrible idea but it could also create a mess of low quality work attempting to be "sold" off.

[Original_Uwe]

This isn't a terrible idea but it could also create a mess of low quality work attempting to be "sold" off.

Well that would be up to the buyer I suppose.

Caveat Emptor and all that.

[ICDP]

and then there is the type of colour film used and its development (was it agfa that turned olive drab into a blue??)

 

for me, if it feels right, it is right. 

 

There was one that turned yellow into black as well I think.

[DetCord12B]

This isn't a terrible idea but it could also create a mess of low quality work attempting to be "sold" off.

 

I don't force anyone to fork out cash to me for my work, it simply gives people the option to donate should they choose to do so. It's a way to say thanks for the hard work and countless hours that goes into this kind of stuff. ICDP, BHH, Hartman, Lothar, myself and many many others don't do this for ourselves. We do it for the community in our spare time. I think its important to remember that.

Edited February 4, 2017 by detcord12b

[BlackHellHound1]

While I love his work, I think BHH did an great job on the 109's. The thin-lines and fuse specs are not only excellent but are incredibly accurate as well. I think a better option would be to have these template makers set up individual PayPal donation accounts. It's what I did and it works quite well.

 

I don't force anyone to fork out cash to me for my work, it simply gives people the option to donate should they choose to do so. It's a way to say thanks for the hard work and countless hours that goes into this kid of stuff. ICDP, BHH, Hartman, Lothar, myself and many many others don't do this for ourselves. We do it for the community in our spare time. I think its important to remember that.

 

Thank you for your compliment It literally put a big smile on my face.

In all honesty, I had never even considered to set up a donation account. Although, it is not a bad idea. I might do it.

 

Skinning has always been about the community for me. To see people and great skinners come together to expand the game with unique and diverse content is something I absolutely love. The fact that no-one is doing this for the money is even better in my opinion... Passion and love for the game, the planes and the work are what drive me and I am sure I am not the only one. 

This will never change for me!

Edited February 1, 2017 by BlackHellHound1

[DetCord12B]

Thank you for your compliment It literally put a big smile on my face.

In all honesty, I had never even considered to set up a donation account. Although, it is not a bad idea. I might do it.

 

Skinning has always been about the community for me. To see people and great skinners come together to expand the game with unique and diverse content is something I absolutely love. The fact that no-one is doing this for the money is even better in my opinion... Passion and love for the game, the planes and the work are what drive me and I am sure I am not the only one. 

This will never change for me!

 

No mate, thank you. Without you and the others that take the time to create these templates the community would be relegated to the default liveries. I'll be in the Netherlands next month for a aviation conference at Schiphol, you can buy me a beer.

 

Bedankt!

[Danziger]

As someone that does this type of work professionally on occasion for FS developers, ICDP's 190 template and his others are the best I've ever come across. The level of quality is simply unparalleled, and that's counting official materials from the likes of PMDG, AS 319 and others. If he isn't doing this type of work professionally, he should be.

 

Yes I think I will definitely leave the MiG-3 for him. I have checked out his work with the 190 and I think he would do far more justice to it than I could. I am nowhere near his level. 

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

I just want to reiterate that I didn't open this thread to denounce, minimize or disrespect any of the talented graphic artists in the IL-2 community or their hard work, which again, I'm not capable of completing on my own.

Edited February 2, 2017 by 4./JG52_Space_Ghost

[Danziger]

Oh no I didn't take any offence at all. I just looked over some of the other's work and realised that I still have a long way to go in learning. I would still be very willing to give reference material or answer questions as I have studied the MiG quite a lot but I believe the community would be better served with someone of his caliber working on the template. 

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

I just looked over some of the other's work and realised that I still have a long way to go in learning.

Being honest with yourself is good but keep in mind most of it is learning by doing. Personally the Ju 87 was my first real 4k project and it held a lot of suprises for me I didn't knew if I could master them before. There's no way to know without trying which is the only real way to move forward and become better.

 

For my second project, the Ju 52, things went a lot smoother due to my expirience with the Stuka and I learned new things again like working with normal maps (still learning).

 

Most important in my opinion is that as soon as you begin to develop your own artstyle you should stick to it.

[Danziger]

I definitely plan to keep on with mine. I just don't think everyone should have to wait months for me to get myself up to speed and downloading constant fixes as I learn. Especially when a pro-quality 4k template could be available much sooner. I also plan to learn the mapping and have some more ideas for alpha layer experimentation.

[BlackHellHound1]

I definitely plan to keep on with mine. I just don't think everyone should have to wait months for me to get myself up to speed and downloading constant fixes as I learn. Especially when a pro-quality 4k template could be available much sooner. I also plan to learn the mapping and have some more ideas for alpha layer experimentation.

 

I encourage you to keep experimenting. I know quite a lot of tricks to make certain effects but still, I learn many new things every time I work on a project. 

Making the F-4 and F-2 templates, I was mostly busy experimenting with all sorts of thing. Many of the effects I added were completely new to me. 

The only reason why it came out the way it did was because I had a style and goal. I would simply keep experimenting with a certain part before I got the right effect I liked. The screws being a good example... It took me over 3 hours to make the first screw. Simply because I was not yet happy with the look.

 

I know what you can do and it is a lot more than you might realise. Keep experimenting and you will learn loads is little time!

Most importantly, set a goal for yourself with each skin and strive to complete it. Do not back down if you can't figure something out.

 

We are a community, ask us! Most of us are more than happy to help if anyone has a problem.

[ICDP]

Oh no I didn't take any offence at all. I just looked over some of the other's work and realised that I still have a long way to go in learning. I would still be very willing to give reference material or answer questions as I have studied the MiG quite a lot but I believe the community would be better served with someone of his caliber working on the template. 

 

I think your work shows a lot of attention to detail.  My one main bit of advice to anyone taking up creating templates, is to learn paths.  It makes creating panel lines and rivets so much easier when you use paths.

 

https://docs.gimp.org/en/gimp-using-paths.html

Edited February 2, 2017 by ICDP

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

I think your work shows a lot of attention to detail.  My one main bit of advice to anyone taking up creating templates, is to learn paths.  It makes creating panel lines and rivets so much easier when you use paths.

 

https://docs.gimp.org/en/gimp-using-paths.html

The only issues I have with the pathtool is that it is very diffiult to set them perfectly straigh (which you have to eyeball) and that it sometimes causes gimp to crash for no reason (always create a backup before using "draw path"!).

 

If there was a function to aling paths horizontally/vertically as with the lasso tool it would be way more practical (could be that this exists and I just didn't figure it out yet).

Edited February 2, 2017 by 6./ZG26_5tuka

[ICDP]

I'm using photoshop and simply holding shift keeps path points perfectly aligned.  I must admit that I haven't used Gimp enough to know if it's possible.

[Danziger]

I'm using photoshop and simply holding shift keeps path points perfectly aligned.  I must admit that I haven't used Gimp enough to know if it's possible.

I assume it would. I was half done with drawing panel lines when I finally learned that holding shift you can paint a straight line lol. I had been using the pencil to paint a few pixels in a straight line and then copy and paste over and over. with screws and rivets I am copying and pasting placing them one at a time. I wanted to do lines but they aren't always equally spaced and you wind up having to come back and relocate them anyway. 

[ICDP]

I assume it would. I was half done with drawing panel lines when I finally learned that holding shift you can paint a straight line lol. I had been using the pencil to paint a few pixels in a straight line and then copy and paste over and over. with screws and rivets I am copying and pasting placing them one at a time. I wanted to do lines but they aren't always equally spaced and you wind up having to come back and relocate them anyway. 

 

Lol, my very first template was done by painting every single rivet by hand.  I almost gave up

[Raptorattacker]

On 2/2/2017 at 8:52 PM, ICDP said:

Lol, my very first template was done by painting every single rivet by hand.  I almost gave up

Ha! Ha! Ha! Been there, done that. It was a revelation when paths arrived in my addled brain!!