Is it just me or has spotting against the ground become worse?

[=ARTOA=Bombenleger]

Hi

since the directx11 update I have extreme problems spotting enemy aircraft especially against the ground.
It has gotten gamebreakingly bad, I cant see a peshka thats 2km away from me against the ground even if im looking directly at it, only the gunner openeing fire makes it visible for me.
Ive tried thousands of sweetfx settings but it seems other than making the game look better, increasing visibility has dissapeared from sweetfxs capabilities since the last patch.
Usually i would lower gamma in the game files to 0.65 and use the lift-gamma-gain setting to lessen the damn "fog" in the air but that doesnt work anymore and as I said spotting against the ground is literaly impossible for me now... 

has anyone made similar experiences since the latest patch? or has anyone got tips how to increase visbility?

[Finkeren]

I have had the exact opposite experience. I think it has become easier, especially on autumn map.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Spotting against background (excluding snow) is not easy and is pretty the same as was in dx9, but take a look at poor bombers they mosty fly alone and this ability to vanish in the background is many times only way to survive.

[=ARTOA=Bombenleger]

yeah but I mean I cant see anything unless im less than 1km away ... planes just merge with the ground this makes anything but bombers unplayable for me which really sucks.

[SYN_Mike77]

Going to agree with Finkeren here.  I find spotting, both in the air and on the ground to be easier now than in the past.  At least for planes.  It seems that movement pops much more now.  OTOH.  Static targets are no easier or harder to see.

[Finkeren]

yeah but I mean I cant see anything unless im less than 1km away ... planes just merge with the ground this makes anything but bombers unplayable for me which really sucks.

What can I say? Camouflage works.

 

Try flying against planes that are painted in a bright colour (both the Yak-1 and I-16 have skins that are bright red) and you'll see it's a question of the colours blending very well into the background.

 

With a little practice it does get better. When I got back from my hiatus and started flying again some months back, I constantly lost planes against the ground, even when I was tracking them and looking directly at them - poof! Gone! Now I can reliably spot planes against the ground out to 5km and against the sky out to 8-10km. It's mainly forests that pose a problem now.

 

I agree, that sometimes it's a little much. For instance the default skin of the Bf 109F2 blends so perfectly with a forest background on autumn maps, that it completely vanishes from sight pretty much until it starts firing at you. The recent updates have made no difference there.

Edited January 27, 2017 by Finkeren

[unreasonable]

This has always been an issue in these games - perhaps there is insufficient difference in reflection, for instance.

 

(RFC khaki against no-man's-land in RoF is the worst: you could often see the exhaust fumes clearly and still be unable to make out the plane - just mysterious puffs of smoke chugging across the front).

 

I think the current release is better, at least I am picking up contacts more easily.

[Finkeren]

As long as it is merely a question of some colours blending in well with the landscape, I really don't see it as much of an issue. Camouflage on aircraft works, or else it would have stopped being used a long time ago.

 

I think the Israeli F-16s are a modern example of how effective camouflage can be, if you tailor the colour sceme to the most prevalent environment, you're operating in.

 

Edited January 27, 2017 by Finkeren

[unreasonable]

Camouflage works all right - Google Images Search thinks that is a picture of a C-5 Galaxy! 

[Jade_Monkey]

Just you, its always been awful.

[216th_Jordan]

Maybe it is a problem with your too low gamma. Having a too low gamma will only give you an advantage in some situations. with the new lighting effects in the dx11 renderer this effect becomes even smaller though. I said it many times before and will now: If you calibrate your monitor correctly a gamma of 1 should give you the best results overall in spotting. Also check your detail_rt_resolution in startup.cfg (set mine to 4096), it seems that the higher this is the more sharply contacts appear.

 

As others have pointed out here there are moments when spotting against ground is easy and moments where a plane very close by blends into the environment. It depends a lot on map, time of day, direction of view, etc.

Nice picture Finkeren, by the way!

Edited January 27, 2017 by 216th_Jordan

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Also check your detail_rt_resolution in startup.cfg (set mine to 4096), it seems that the higher this is the more sharply contacts appear.

I'd still like to see an official explaination of that config line to really understand what it does. Still haven't noticed any difference after playing around with it for some time.

[216th_Jordan]

I'd still like to see an official explaination of that config line to really understand what it does. Still haven't noticed any difference after playing around with it for some time.

 

Me too, it seemed to definitely affects ground textures as far as my testing went, but none is confirmed. I asked about it some time ago but never got an answer, so it remains a mystery. It seems plausible that it defines the maximum texture resolution your game will resolve to - as some people reported you don't see the benefits of a 4k skin without setting this to 4096. (not tested by me)

Edited January 27, 2017 by 216th_Jordan

[Trooper117]

When I was in the military, one of the lessons I used to teach was 'Why things are seen'...

 

There are many factors to this lesson, but the main one was 'Movement'...

 

Movement automatically attracts the eye. Whether it be directly in your main vision or peripheral vision, you will generally be alerted to sudden movement.

This is in all part of our human make up to put us into a 'fight or flight' mode because survival is key.

 

You can have the best camouflage in the world, it helps you 'blend in' with the environment, but movement will cause you to give away your position.

 

 

Now, when I used to fly real aeroplanes, my instructor was quite impressed how I was quite often able to pick up other aircraft in our area before him.

I certainly didn't have better eyesight than him, but I can only put it down to the fact that I had been trained and also taught this skill to others for many years.

 

What about the game then?

I can't comment on how things are with the new DX 11 as I'm moving house and all my flight sim gear is in storage... however, previous to that, I did gauge that it was more difficult in game to pick up other aircraft as opposed to real life... that, or my eyes are getting worse, lol!

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

It seems plausible that it defines the maximum texture resolution your game will resolve to - as some people reported you don't see the benefits of a 4k skin without setting this to 4096. (not tested by me)

The last one is definetly false because mine is set to stock value and I can see my skins fine.

[Finkeren]

Spotting in any sim represented on a computer screen is invariably harder than IRL, we are past the times of low resolutions and simple textures, where contacts could be spotted as noticable monochrome "dots".

 

I don't think this sim is worse than any other in that regard.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

When I was in the military, one of the lessons I used to teach was 'Why things are seen'...

 

There are many factors to this lesson, but the main one was 'Movement'...

 

Movement automatically attracts the eye. Whether it be directly in your main vision or peripheral vision, you will generally be alerted to sudden movement.

This is in all part of our human make up to put us into a 'fight or flight' mode because survival is key.

 

You can have the best camouflage in the world, it helps you 'blend in' with the environment, but movement will cause you to give away your position.

 

 

Now, when I used to fly real aeroplanes, my instructor was quite impressed how I was quite often able to pick up other aircraft in our area before him.

I certainly didn't have better eyesight than him, but I can only put it down to the fact that I had been trained and also taught this skill to others for many years.

 

What about the game then?

I can't comment on how things are with the new DX 11 as I'm moving house and all my flight sim gear is in storage... however, previous to that, I did gauge that it was more difficult in game to pick up other aircraft as opposed to real life... that, or my eyes are getting worse, lol!

That could explain his statements about new dx11- more FPS more fluid movement. Things in real life are moving smoothly Edited January 27, 2017 by 307_Tomcat

[Potenz]

For me is way easier now to spot planes, and as others said cammo is meant to blend the plane with the terrain look at this photo of a desert 109 cammo

Edited January 27, 2017 by Potenz

[mb339pan]

Render in this game has always been a problem, especially when the planes fly closer to the ground, even in the distance over 5km with the zoom colors are totally canceled, the silhouettes are always black or white rendering useless any sign of recognition on plane

 

 

[Finkeren]

Render in this game has always been a problem, especially when the planes fly closer to the ground, even in the distance over 5km with the zoom colors are totally canceled, the silhouettes are always black or white rendering useless any sign of recognition on plane

 

 

Something is definitely wrong in that shot. At less than 2km distance those IL-2s would show up very clearly on my screen. Here they are completely invisible. Also clearly not a case of them turning into b/w silhouettes.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Render in this game has always been a problem, especially when the planes fly closer to the ground, even in the distance over 5km with the zoom colors are totally canceled, the silhouettes are always black or white rendering useless any sign of recognition on plane

 

 

 

 

Please upload track.

[Finkeren]

I just tried to recreate the conditions in that shot, and I have to admit, that the all-green IL-2s blend very well with a background of Autumn grassland to the point of being near invisible in still images from certain angles (with the sun at your back so no part of the IL-2s are in shadows)  at 1 - 2 km range in zoomed out view.

 

It wasn't as bad as in those shots, which suffer from being fairly low-res and seem to have gamma set very low, but on the screenshots you'd still have to know exactly where to look to make out the IL-2s.

 

However, the screen shots are misleading, because the very moment I unpaused the game and the planes started moving against the background, they immediately became very apparent and easy to spot and could be seen clear enough to ID. Keep in mind what Trooper said about perceiving movement.

 

In motion there would be absolutely no issue spotting the planes in those shots.

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

i don't understand..

Ok you are in a say Cesna cruising over new york @ 3,000FT if a plane flies under you @ 200ft above the city.. you chance of spotting him are very low (maybe 25%) WITHOUT NAV Lights.

Thats why we have nav lights to spot traffic as a plane is near impossible to spot past 10km or above ground clutter.

RE: not saying the spotting system ingame is perfect but it does a great camo job. 
as for the pics above i think you have a rendering problem..
Is that on ULTRA settings? without any config or file changes?

 

[Finkeren]

He doesn't have a rendering problem. The all-green IL-2s just blend really well with Autumn grassland. However, as soon as things are moving, spotting at that distance is easy despite the blending, so the screenshots aren't representative of how it really is.

[mb339pan]

Another QMB test, Moscow map, 1200, 7k altitude, the IL2 group It is clearly seen without zoom, white/celeste silhouettes near the aviation field

 

 

over the big forest, but...

 

 

300m altitude, only 2 IL2 are clearly seen

 

 

contacts that 7k were seen with clear light now are dark, virtually invisible almost invisible over the forest when a 7k could be seen clearly, the colors are totally distorted

 

Ultra settings HDR off gamma 0.9, no sweet fx VGA GTX660, changing monitor from Asus VW226TL to Samsung S27E390H end settings from nvidia pannel, changing drivers the situation of invisibility at low altitude contacts is pretty much the same.

Others complain about the same problem, online you have more chance of surviving flying at 100m than 3k

Edited January 28, 2017 by 150GCT_Pan

[JAGER_Batz]

Another QMB test, Moscow map, 1200, 7k altitude, the IL2 group It is clearly seen without zoom, white/celeste silhouettes near the aviation field

 

 

over the big forest, but...

 

 

300m altitude, only 2 IL2 are clearly seen

 

 

contacts that 7k were seen with clear light now are dark, virtually invisible almost invisible over the forest when a 7k could be seen clearly, the colors are totally distorted

 

Ultra settings HDR off gamma 0.9, no sweet fx VGA GTX660, changing monitor from Asus VW226TL to Samsung S27E390H end settings from nvidia pannel, changing drivers the situation of invisibility at low altitude contacts is pretty much the same.

Others complain about the same problem, online you have more chance of surviving flying at 100m than 3k

 

Nice analysis, very strange this....

Edited January 28, 2017 by JAGER_Batz

[ITAF_Cymao]

 

 

has anyone made similar experiences since the latest patch?

I had the same feeling!

 

Others complain about the same problem

The same thing happens to me, the contacts, that I see well from a distance, disappear when I approach them...

[216th_Jordan]

Planes have a far away default paintscheme and the forest is not rending from far away. Thats why planes can be spotted against the ground from high above - an advantage that should not be there and gets corrected once forrest renders and planes' paintscheme is applied when getting closer.

It seems harder on your pictures though and I don't know if that is just lost image quality. Maybe there is something with you graphics settings somewhere.. do you use nvidia control panel or nvidia inspector and use some kind of FXAA?

Edited January 28, 2017 by 216th_Jordan

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Jordan is right background textures are blured at that distance but planes are not.

[mb339pan]

do you use nvidia control panel or nvidia inspector and use some kind of FXAA?

yes i use Nvidia inspector, but not FXAA, FXAA blurred immage

 

 

screen is old, now i use 368.81 driver but some settings.

 

ingame settings distance landscape is on 3x, AO is on

Edited January 28, 2017 by 150GCT_Pan

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

Why -2.5 lod bias...  WTH it clamped to 0.0 its 100% ignored so pointless setting but LOL..

Why 8X anistropic filtering forced thats what the game already forces in the game files in Data/graphics/filtersettings.inc
 

 

Data/graphics/filtersettings.inc

MipFilter = LINEAR;
MagFilter = LINEAR;
MinFilter = ANISOTROPIC;
MaxAnisotropy = 8;  << Change this to 16 and set file to Read only

Lower anistropic = Much more blurries and blended textures.
Where as i for 16X Anistropic filtering in the above mentions file

Also why "enhance the anti aliasing" with 4xmsaa when the In game (max slider) is 4XMSAA anyways. (doubling them up us NOT 8X msaa)

also you want triple buffering off as this only introduces input lag and pre-rendered frames should be 1 if your gpu will handle it


Also FXAA X2(nvidia control panel) IS MUCH HIGHER Quality than MSAA X2 but at 1/10th the performance cost.
Correct settings for maximum normal detail and performance GTX780 or better


 

Edited January 28, 2017 by =r4t=Sshadow14

[Jade_Monkey]

This has happened from the beginning to me.

The only good way to spot someone is from below (or same level)

From above it's really tough.

Edited January 28, 2017 by Jade_Monkey

[mb339pan]

Why -2.5 lod bias...  WTH it clamped to 0.0 its 100% ignored so pointless setting but LOL..

 

http://www.avsim.com/topic/391709-lod-bias-clamp-vs-allow/

[216th_Jordan]

I found that the normal multisampling of nvidia inspector could cause some issues.

 

Here are my settings - you could take this 1 on 1 and see what results you get. Normally I use Sparse grid supersampling but this profile is almost default and actually great. I did find that customizing too much here did not bring a lot of good things with it and I tired for 2 years.

Edited January 28, 2017 by 216th_Jordan

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

http://www.avsim.com/topic/391709-lod-bias-clamp-vs-allow/

thread form 2012 !  it's deprecated option

 

 

https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/529407/geforce-drivers/clamp-negative-lod-bias/15/

[ShamrockOneFive]

I haven't had any issues. Last night I was on Wings of Liberty (no icons) and I had little trouble spotting anything. I was actually pretty impressed that I could spot trucks and my train target without too much difficulty... So I'm not sure if its changed but its definitely pretty decent right now. The only issue I have right now is not being able to see buildings much further out (for lining up a bomb run).

 

The trick with aircraft is that they are moving so you're always looking for motion as Trooper was saying.

[gnomechompsky]

What is your setup? And what type of monitor do you use?

[ShamrockOneFive]

Mine? It's on a 24in Dell U2412 IPS running at native resolution of 1920x1200 (19:10 ratio).

 

That does bring up a good point. The monitor you use is going to matter a fair bit when it comes to spotting tiny dots and changes in contrast.

[gnomechompsky]

Ok thanks.  I am of the mind that the bigger the monitor, the easier it is going to be to spot things.  But I have a 30" @ 2560 x 1600 and I still find it pretty hard.

[busdriver]

When I was in the military, one of the lessons I used to teach was 'Why things are seen'...

 

There are many factors to this lesson, but the main one was 'Movement'...

 

Movement automatically attracts the eye. Whether it be directly in your main vision or peripheral vision, you will generally be alerted to sudden movement.

This is in all part of our human make up to put us into a 'fight or flight' mode because survival is key.

Absolutely correct. Besides at long distances, airplanes generally look like a dark spot. The closer they get generally speaking, distinct aspects (shape) appear before the paint job. Regarding the Israeli camo, it looks great captured in a single moment in time (not moving). IRL you can have an awesome paint job, but the thing that will give your position away is seeing movement of the shadow across the ground. This was a constant "lesson learned" at Red Flag the first time squadrons participated.

Edited January 29, 2017 by busdriver