Plane Variants ... why???

[smink1701]

So why do the developers think we need multiple versions of the same plane...

190 A-5 and A-3

109 F-2 and F4, G-2 and G-4, etc, etc, etc.  

I can't tell any difference from one variant to the next.

IMHO I would rather have less variants and more different planes.  Anyone else feel this way?

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

Different plane variants can't be avoided really as most of the time the Air Forces just used variants of the same planes, instead of brand new ones in each new battle/theatre.

 

How would you portray Battle of Kuban without Bf-109 and Fw-190? (I know the G2 and probably the A3 were there, but think about the perspective of the guy buying BoK only)

 

Maybe for some Air Forces like the USAAF for example it can be somewhat doable, because it had quite a bit of different fighter planes (P-36, P-38, P-39, P-40, P-47, P-51) but for others like the VVS or the LW you pretty much have variants of Fw-190, Bf-109, LaGG, Yak, La... so there aren't a lot of options to bring more diversity without compromising the integrity of the battle itself.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

So why do the developers think we need multiple versions of the same plane...

190 A-5 and A-3

109 F-2 and F4, G-2 and G-4, etc, etc, etc.  

I can't tell any difference from one variant to the next.

IMHO I would rather have less variants and more different planes.  Anyone else feel this way?

Well, the german side had 2 Large Production Fighter Designs, against about 15 Allied Designs. So Variants are pretty much all you are going to get. With the current 5v5 Setup of the Game releases they are forced to put in Variants of these Fighters, while they can freely put in new Allied fighters all the time. 

 

The Differences also aren't that Minute. The two Gustavs differ mainly in Power and Ground Handling, with the G-4 being an improvement in both. 

The Friedrichs Differ in the Loadouts, with the F-2 being unable to Carry Gun Pods, and the F-4 just being a bit Über. 

 

The 190s will also differ in their Loadouts and Top Speed. The A-5 may or may not get a Emergency Power for much longer and Armor Additions etc and will be more pleasant to fly, so will be a better allrounder, with the A-3 having no really big Upshots. 

 

What Planes are thinking should be added instead? 

If there was ever going to be a Winter War or Continuation War Setup there would be some more Variety I guess, but with the Current Front Setups Variants are all we are going to get. 

 

The most Produced Aircraft used by the Luftwaffe are (in order)

• Bf109 
• Fw190
• Ju-88
• DFS SG-38 (which needs to be ingame at some point)
• Ju-87 Stuka
• Bf110
• He-111
• Bü131
• Ju-52
• Bü 181
• Ar 96
• Fi 156 Storch
• Do-17

And somewhere down the List are Do-217 and the Low Production Late War Types. 

So really, we have all the important types, and now there are only Variants to follow. 

 

 

I would like to see more Variants of many Allied and Soviet Planes as well, like a 5 Gun LaGG-3 as well as a late Model with alll the weight Savings and Slats etc, La-5F and FN. How about an early Yak-1 as well, maybe 2 or 3 Yak-9 Variants. 

Swept Wing Il-2 would be Cool as well. 

Earlier and Later P-40s would be good, like a P-40B or C and P-40M and Merlin Powered ones too. 

There was a Lot of Variety in the P-39s as well, long and Short Wings, different Gun Setups and Tails etc and whatever else they evolved. 

 

There are so many Spitfires, at least 5 or 6 significantly Different Models, like Standard Mk.Vbs and the LF ones, Mk.IX and LF Mk.IX, as well as Griffon ones and early Models. 

 

The Americans had More Aircraft in fewer Variations, but the other Nations pretty much stuck with barely more than two main fighter Airframes at a time. 

Edited January 22, 2017 by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

[JG13_opcode]

I can't tell any difference from one variant to the next.

Some can. I'd rather not fly a G-6 against a Yak-3.

 

Against a Yak-1? Sure.

[hames123]

The SG 38 was a training glider. Maybe for BoB(battle of Britain or Battle of Berlin), as in both, the German gliders actually had a risk of being shot down.

[Czar66]

I can't tell any difference from one variant to the next.

 

Try to kill a Yak-1 with 109 E-7. Repeat with the F-4.

 

 

To be honest, for me, the sim lacks variants. Not the other way around, as well as other new planes, don't get me wrong here.

 

Don't worry. The more you fly, the more you will want more variants.

 

For instance, a P 40-F or later instead of the E that we have in the sim would be night and day against the planes already available.

 

Variants also allow more flexibility on mission creation, more authenticity outside just cosmetic. Variants flies differently from one another. Strategies on earlier versions on the same plane may not be recommended on late models and vice-versa.

 

Experience of my own: I can't fly the 109 F-4 the way I fly the G2 (my favourite/most hours), I get wrecked. In other hand the G2 shouldn't be handle as a pure F-4. The more I fly in this sim, more i see the gap increase on possibilities between variants. A dogfight with a Yak-1 series 69 may develop completely different against a Yak-1b.

 

Other than price/sale model, there's absolutely nothing wrong on the current variants development. And also it makes possible to work/correct on an earlier product while developing a late/earlier variant aircraft, an example would the be 190 A-3 situation. The FW 190 A-5 development will make possible to correct stuff on the A-3, as prop blades on earlier 109s. Otherwise there would be no money to pay the engineers/devs/ to correct something or improve what has been already released.

 

Cheers and happy flying.

Edited January 22, 2017 by Czar66

[jaydee]

Try to kill a Yak-1 with 109 E-7. Repeat with the F-4.

 

 

To be honest, for me, the sim lacks variants. Not the other way around, as well as other new planes, don't get me wrong here.

 

Don't worry. The more you fly, the more you will want more variants.

 

For instance, a P 40-F or later instead of the E that we have in the sim would be night and day against the planes already available.

 

Variants also allow more flexibility on mission creation, more authenticity outside just cosmetic. Variants flies differently from one another. Strategies on earlier versions on the same plane may not be recommended on late models and vice-versa.

 

Experience of my own: I can't fly the 109 F-4 the way I fly the G2 (my favourite/most hours), I get wrecked. In other hand the G2 shouldn't be handle as a pure F-4. The more I fly in this sim, more i see the gap increase on possibilities between variants. A dogfight with a Yak-1 series 69 may develop completely different against a Yak-1b.

 

Other than price/sale model, there's absolutely nothing wrong on the current variants development. And also it makes possible to work/correct on an earlier product while developing a late/earlier variant aircraft, an example would the be 190 A-3 situation. The FW 190 A-5 development will make possible to correct stuff on the A-3, as prop blades on earlier 109s. Otherwise there would be no money to pay the engineers/devs/ to correct something or improve what has been already released.

 

Cheers and happy flying.

 

Agree 100% Czar ! ~S~

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

The SG 38 was a training glider. Maybe for BoB(battle of Britain or Battle of Berlin), as in both, the German gliders actually had a risk of being shot down.

That must have been a lucky Allied Pilot that managed to get an SG-38 in the 30 Seconds of flight somewhere in Mainland Germany. I guess no SG-38 was ever shot down in anger. Just not enough time, chance or reason.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZig5ujrMPM

Edited January 22, 2017 by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

[Finkeren]

The many variants was actually one of the things I really liked about the original IL-2, especially after the introduction of the Forgotten Battles career mode. The ability to play through the entire war, following the gradual evolution of aircraft types really gave a sense of the shifting tides of war.

 

This sim will never have the massive numbers of aircraft types that the original ended up with, but I still feel that it's important to cover the most important variants of the most prolific types, and I look forward to being able to advance through the types in the new career mode.

 

Of course we can always have a discussion of which sub-types to include - Bf 109 G2/G4 springs to mind.

[Dutchvdm]

Yes they should have build the 109 K4 and used them in all expansions. Way more productive and who really can tell the difference...

 

I don't want to be rude, but i find this a bit silly.

 

Grt M

[Asgar]

Yes they should have build the 109 K4 and used them in all expansions. Way more productive and who really can tell the difference...

 

I don't want to be rude, but i find this a bit silly.

 

Grt M

   

 

also agreed

[Chief_Mouser]

The aircraft should fit the scenarios, simple as that. If that means variants of the same plane, so be it. What needs to happen is the plane set for those scenarios to be filled out, but it seems that it will only happen, if at all, as 'collector' planes and we will never get all of them.

 

Essential:

Ilyushin DB-3F /Il-4
Polikarpov I-153P

Henschel Hs123A
Junkers Ju87B

Needed for historical scenarios:

Hawker Hurricane IIB
Polikarpov U-2
Lisunov Li-2
Sukhoi Su-2

IAR 80A
Focke-Wulf 189

 

Only one variant in that lot but it's definitely needed.

 

Cheers.

Edited January 22, 2017 by 216th_Cat

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Hurricane > I-153 (with a bleeding heart though)

Fw189 > HS123

[Monostripezebra]

I feel like the german side could do with a little more variety.. the VVS has a strenght in the diverse models, but while the LW fighters are superior, the workhorses are kind of vulnerable, dated and a bit inadequate, with the notable exception of the Ju88. Also, the task of force recon, which was historically a very vital job for the germans is also underrepresented. We virtually have no recon to fly...

 

So a FW189 recon, with it´s multirole functionality it was pressed into, would be a greatly apreciated addition for me. It was known for it´s toughness and adapted with forward firing guns for anti-partisan duties, recon, light strike, night fighter and other things.

 

Edited January 22, 2017 by Monostripezebra

[Cybermat47]

So why do the developers think we need multiple versions of the same plane...

190 A-5 and A-3

109 F-2 and F4, G-2 and G-4, etc, etc, etc.  

I can't tell any difference from one variant to the next.

IMHO I would rather have less variants and more different planes.  Anyone else feel this way?

If you want brand new aircraft, don't ask the devs, go back in time and ask the Luftwaffe and VVS...

[Rolling_Thunder]

Yes they should have build the 109 K4 and used them in all expansions. Way more productive and who really can tell the difference...

I don't want to be rude, but i find this a bit silly.

Grt M

That's what Eagle Dynamics have done. Don't expect any 109 or 190 variants in that platform.

[Finkeren]

That's what Eagle Dynamics have done. Don't expect any 109 or 190 variants in that platform.

I think that's kind of what he was referencing.

[Custard]

I think that's kind of what he was referencing.

 

The absolute state of that product is honestly ludicrous, Normandy landings with K-4 & D-9? Versus the Spit IX and an engine limited PTO Mustang? It beggars belief.

 

Makes me thankful that BoS is committed to modeling the planes that actually fought at the battle.

 

 

Though on all this talk of additional aircraft, I would pay $$$ for Po-2 & Fw 189. I feel the reconnaissance role is underexplored in sims but could make for great gameplay in the upcoming coop mode or online, if there was a method of target location communication built into the UI.

[Trooper117]

Though on all this talk of additional aircraft, I would pay $$$ for Po-2 & Fw 189. I feel the reconnaissance role is underexplored in sims but could make for great gameplay in the upcoming coop mode or online, if there was a method of target location communication built into the UI.

 

I think it was about a year ago I brought the Fw 189 up as a much needed LW aircraft for the game... Han answered that it might be possible at some stage.

[unreasonable]

Plane variants are also good for SP Career mode, at least when it is possible to link campaigns to make an extended career.  

 

Upgrading to the most modern variant then becomes a satisfying milestone: similar to "leveling up". 

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Upgrading to the most modern variant then becomes a satisfying milestone: similar to "leveling up".

And usually they all have quirks that make them unique. The 109G handles completely different from the F series, and is even more removed from the E. The Il-2s in game are also worlds apart, for example.

[ShamrockOneFive]

And usually they all have quirks that make them unique. The 109G handles completely different from the F series, and is even more removed from the E. The Il-2s in game are also worlds apart, for example.

 

That's one of the best things about the complexity of the flight models these days. I can feel the difference between a Bf109F-4 and G-2. It's even more stark of a difference between the E-7 and G-4. Yeah its the "same ole 109" and they have some familiar handling traits but they are also very different.

[Gambit21]

 Anyone else feel this way?

No

[Luftschiff]

I mean, I certainly would LIKE to see more unique planes for the LW, rather than some of the (sometimes rather minor) variations - because I am interested in experiencing the airplanes. I understand why we have them, and I agree with that course of action - let's not forget that realism aside it is also much cheaper and faster for the devs to make variants than all-new airframes. That said, I think it's unfair to dismiss his point, crudely worded as though it might have been. Do I think variants are stupid, god no - Would I have chosen an IAR 80 or a Fw189 over the G4? Yes, yes I would have found that much more exciting.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

I mean, I certainly would LIKE to see more unique planes for the LW, rather than some of the (sometimes rather minor) variations - because I am interested in experiencing the airplanes. I understand why we have them, and I agree with that course of action - let's not forget that realism aside it is also much cheaper and faster for the devs to make variants than all-new airframes. That said, I think it's unfair to dismiss his point, crudely worded as though it might have been. Do I think variants are stupid, god no - Would I have chosen an IAR 80 or a Fw189 over the G4? Yes, yes I would have found that much more exciting.

Fw189 and IAR 80 would suit the Role of "Collector Plane" more than regular Game Title. 

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

I mean, I certainly would LIKE to see more unique planes for the LW, rather than some of the (sometimes rather minor) variations - because I am interested in experiencing the airplanes. I understand why we have them, and I agree with that course of action - let's not forget that realism aside it is also much cheaper and faster for the devs to make variants than all-new airframes. That said, I think it's unfair to dismiss his point, crudely worded as though it might have been. Do I think variants are stupid, god no - Would I have chosen an IAR 80 or a Fw189 over the G4? Yes, yes I would have found that much more exciting.

 

Would I have chosen an IAR 80 over a G-4? No... But I'd pay $20 for it as a collector's plane.

 

I will pay $15-20 for any single engine and $25-30 for any multi-engine aircraft that they choose to release as collector's content.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

I think an Il-4/DB-3F would have been a viable Choice over the Peshka 35. 

[Luftschiff]

Fw189 and IAR 80 would suit the Role of "Collector Plane" more than regular Game Title. 

 

Sure, t'was just an example - the collector planes we were given are already new airframes though, whereas the entire LW lineup for Kuban is variants, which was why I thought the G4 was a better case. I don't have anything against the plane itself, but surely you can see my point. 

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Sure, t'was just an example - the collector planes we were given are already new airframes though, whereas the entire LW lineup for Kuban is variants, which was why I thought the G4 was a better case. I don't have anything against the plane itself, but surely you can see my point. 

 

I see that you're making a point but I don't fully receive the point you're making.

 

The Luftwaffe had 109s and 190s... Thus, whether it is the Battle of Britain, North Africa, the Bulge, Defense of the Reich, the Eastern Front, etc... you are going to get variants of the 109/190.

Edited January 23, 2017 by 4./JG52_Space_Ghost

[Gambit21]

but surely you can see my point.

No - try again within the historical context of which planes were actually in use

[Luftschiff]

Indeed, and as I said - I understand why we have variants AND I agree with having them, I am not the OP, I was just saying that I understand his point of view. Some people were being very dismissive of it which I didn't think was fair. Nothing wrong with wanting variety.

Edited January 23, 2017 by Luftschiff

[Gambit21]

Variety is where planes like the Ju52 or the Storch or the Po-2 come in.

 

Speaking of variants - Ju52 with floats in Kuban FTW!

[Missionbug]

I think most of us are agreed that there is the need for more of a variety of aircraft in the game even if it is necessary to have the multiple variants of the existing types for authenticity but I for one feel we could have got along with less of those types by using the particular version of a type most used in theatre, surely for both sides there are types used throughout even if other variants were added as they became available.

 

Anyway, the team has gone the way they have but surely the time has come for them to exploit a potential sales boost by making some of the types available we have all mentioned as collector aircraft because there is a list of types that are consistently mentioned for them to pick from.

 

IAR 80, FW 189, Storch, Po-2, Hurricane IL-4 and so on would I think sell well enough to make them worth the effort as most who fly these games tend to be older people who have no issue with parting with $20 or so to have them in their game, it can only add further interest to what really is the only plausible modern WWII aircraft game available to all now and in the foreseeable future at a price most can afford and enjoy.

 

That said me and all of you do not have to deal with the reality of paying the bills and keeping a small dedicated team together so we can only watch, hope and wait for our own particular favourite types to be included somewhere along the way.

 

 

Wishing you all the very best, Pete.

Edited January 23, 2017 by Missionbug

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

I think an Il-4/DB-3F would have been a viable Choice over the Peshka 35.

It mostly night-bombed during the Moscow campaign, performing long range missions and all that.

[ShamrockOneFive]

I think an Il-4/DB-3F would have been a viable Choice over the Peshka 35. 

 

I'm sure it was mostly a matter of complexity and time. The multi-station bombers take more time than anything else so I'm sure they figured out that they can afford to give us one new complex multi-station bomber during the BoM development period and not two so we ended up with the prolific Pe-2 Series 35 as a relatively modest change from the earlier version. It was very much the bomber du jour but then it was that for much of the war.

 

I would have loved a SB-2 or a DB-3/IL-4 too. I'm hopeful we'll see one someday!

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Also the Ar-2 (last iteration of the SB series) although it was overall inferiour to the Peshka. But that would probably have slowed down development quite a bit.

 

Variation is always nicer than duplication, but some variants can't be avoided either due to their historical relevance or the lack of substitudes.

Edited January 24, 2017 by 6./ZG26_5tuka

[Riderocket]

saying you want less variants in a ww2 flight sim.... is a bit silly.

maybe you could try play Rise of Flight, theres alot of more "types" and less Variants there becuase in ww1 there was alot more experimenting and less perfecting. (i guess?)