Damage model Complexity (great work devs!)

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

Just a quick thumbs up to the devs on a very good and complex Aircraft Damage Model in IL2.

I realize its probably still being worked on but sometimes its just amazing and so immersive.

Recently on a test flight i did a ground loop before take off (throttle left forward while afk)
I noticed my left wing looked a little "off" upon a close look a saw a small crack about 1/3 of the way down from wing tip.
I Decided to test the "Visual damage only model" and did a take off,

During the roll the wing flexed a little and when i got airborne it bent up about 10cm (opening the crack to about 3cm wide)
i was able to do light turns in both directions turns to the right closed the crack turns to the left opened it
As i accelerated it bent more and more and passing about 290kph the Wing Folded up and backward and ripped off (plane spun in)

Very Very Well done..
Good job Devs..

Also it seems Engine Damage Model is rather more complex than im used to in sims(games)

The Bf110 Left engine seems to suffer damage from oil starvation after sustained High G turns specially inverted moves.
Had the engine stall and die in black smoke 3 times at top of a loop or hammerhead sending me into an inverted flat spin from which there is no recovery with only 1 engine to work with.

 

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

The dynamic physical damage model is great. Arguably the best in the industry.

 

The granular systems damage model could use improvement but isn't bad. (engine modeling, hydraulic failure, electrical failure, etc.) I don't think oil starvation/things like that are accurately modeled or else it would be much more of a problem for 109s.

 

The visual damage model is lacking and needs a lot of work to come up to Cliff's standards. Here's to hoping DX11 will enable a future review of this.

[Asgar]

The dynamic physical damage model is great. Arguably the best in the industry.

 

The granular systems damage model could use improvement but isn't bad. (engine modeling, hydraulic failure, electrical failure, etc.) I don't think oil starvation/things like that are accurately modeled or else it would be much more of a problem for 109s.

 

The visual damage model is lacking and needs a lot of work to come up to Cliff's standards. Here's to hoping DX11 will enable a future review of this.

why would that be 109 specific? are you telling us that other nations engines don't need oil? the German engines in game already seem to die 10 times faster than the Russian ones so, i think the 109s have enough engine problems 

Edited January 19, 2017 by 6./ZG26_Asgar

[Dutchvdm]

The dynamic physical damage model is great. Arguably the best in the industry.

 

The granular systems damage model could use improvement but isn't bad. (engine modeling, hydraulic failure, electrical failure, etc.) I don't think oil starvation/things like that are accurately modeled or else it would be much more of a problem for 109s.

 

The visual damage model is lacking and needs a lot of work to come up to Cliff's standards. Here's to hoping DX11 will enable a future review of this.

 

 Regarding the visual implementation i would say it's hit and miss. Somethings like the bullet-holes and windscreen damages look quiet ok. They could use some higher textures for sure. The gripe i have is that it is all pretty limited. Some areas don't have this system at all. Resulting in absorbing hundreds off bullets without any visual sign of damage. 

 

Grt M

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

why would that be 109 specific? are you telling us that other nations engines don't need oil? the German engines in game already seem to die 10 times faster than the Russian ones so, i think the 109s have enough engine problems 

 

Uhhh... Relax Asgar... There is absolutely no need, whatsoever, to instantly jump on the defensiveness train. 

 

The Daimler-Benz series engines had issues with oil starvation during inverted flight. I believe Red 7 crashed due to a similar issue.

 

I spoke specifically about the 109 because it is the airframe that I fly the most and am most knowledgeable about. It would be silly and out of place for me to speak about other airframes/engines that I am much less familiar with.

Edited January 19, 2017 by 4./JG52_Space_Ghost

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

I killed yesterday enemy pilot flaying with closed canopy, 90 deg. angle cannon shot - striaght into his head and he died but canopy was intact ...

Edited January 19, 2017 by 307_Tomcat

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

I killed yesterday enemy pilot flaying with closed canopy, 90 deg. angle cannon shot - striaght into his head and he died but canopy was intact ...

 

There is visual damage for canopy glass, it's just really hard to tell if you're not in the seat.

[E69_geramos109]

There are still some strange things to solve like the strange weakness on the 109 tail who allways lose all the surfaces at the same time and some more damages to implement, for example pneumatic system damage or the self sealing tanks.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

-snip-

 

Were they really not physically there in Clod? Seems strange now to think they weren't,... were they... Weren't they...?

 

There is no collision model for trees in Cliffs. Optimization!

 Regarding the visual implementation i would say it's hit and miss. Somethings like the bullet-holes and windscreen damages look quiet ok. They could use some higher textures for sure. The gripe i have is that it is all pretty limited. Some areas don't have this system at all. Resulting in absorbing hundreds off bullets without any visual sign of damage. 

 

Grt M

 

I'm with you there, mate. I really, really, really, really, really hope that somewhere, some day in a future development timeline (or redevelopment timeline  ) the team will have an opportunity to go back and deliver on a phenomenal detailed visual DM like Cliffs has.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

There is visual damage for canopy glass, it's just really hard to tell if you're not in the seat.

I can see it really cleary on the replay There is no visual damage just impact of cannons hit on canopy and no scratch or holle on it, just sequence of pilot death animation under it.

And yes I saw it broken but not in that example.

Edited January 19, 2017 by 307_Tomcat

[JG13_opcode]

There are still some strange things to solve like the strange weakness on the 109 tail who allways lose all the surfaces at the same time and some more damages to implement, for example pneumatic system damage or the self sealing tanks.

More than once I've lost only one horizontal stabilizer in the Messerschmitt

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

yes still some work to do but still a great job done so far..

Whats needed is more landing gear issues.
Blown tires and more sensitive to sideways loading of the gear (slliding on take off/landing does not do enough damage at the moment to the gear.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

More than once I've lost only one horizontal stabilizer in the Messerschmitt

Both me and my wingman did so today (at different times).

[CUJO_1970]

I screwed up and had a rough takeoff in the FW-190 one time - the left gear retracted fine but the right gear jammed about halfway up...pretty cool effect. I tried to un-jam that sucker but nothing worked and I had to RTB in shame.

[Livai]

The visual damage model is lacking and needs a lot of work to come up to Cliff's standards. Here's to hoping DX11 will enable a future review of this.

 

Already there but not enabled! Not sure why Performance reasons???

See how here how many plane parts you can shoot apart......................

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvuAlIfWIPQ

Edited January 20, 2017 by Superghostboy

[JG1_Pragr]

There always will be simplification to some degree in sims like BoX. I think that's true for every sim you can get at this moment including DCS series. I can live with that. The only think I really dislike on the BoS damage model is the lack of fuel system granularity. It's really annoying that once your plane with e.g. 4 fuel tanks is hit to the single one, sooner or later you loose all your fuel due damage even from undamaged tanks situated in the other side of the wing.

[Asgar]

yes still some work to do but still a great job done so far..

 

Whats needed is more landing gear issues.

Blown tires and more sensitive to sideways loading of the gear (slliding on take off/landing does not do enough damage at the moment to the gear.

you have never flown the Ju-88 have you?     

[Chief_Mouser]

But one thing that is awesome in BoX: TREES!

 

 

 

Those damn trees. The Germans must have planted them, as they have a notable tendency to throw themselves into the path of my Il-2.

Cheers.

Edited January 20, 2017 by 216th_Cat

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Yes Bos Concrete trees are better than ghost ones in Clod

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Already there but not enabled! Not sure why Performance reasons???

See how here how many plane parts you can shoot apart......................

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvuAlIfWIPQ

 

This video is incredibly old and it's completely obvious that the models (especially those of internal parts) have been completely removed or heavily optimized in the actual sim.

[Asgar]

i'm not sure about that. a couple of patches ago you could still glitch the camera into the plane and you could see the engine and everything in there as well as wing spars etc.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

i'm not sure about that. a couple of patches ago you could still glitch the camera into the plane and you could see the engine and everything in there as well as wing spars etc.

 

 

This video is incredibly old and it's completely obvious that the models (especially those of internal parts) have been completely removed or heavily optimized in the actual sim.

[Danziger]

i'm not sure about that. a couple of patches ago you could still glitch the camera into the plane and you could see the engine and everything in there as well as wing spars etc.

You can look inside of everything with the skin viewer. The only planes with engine parts inside are radials I think. There is definitely not all of that stuff inside the LaGG that is shown in the video. I always wondered why it was simplified. 

[=LG/F=Kathon]

Is it possible to damage or destroy each separated part of the airplane from that video?

[curiousGamblerr]

I'm not sure I would trust the skin viewer to load up the entire damage model and all relevant parts inside the aircraft. A better test would be to look inside the aircraft in-game, which it seems Asgar has done and he saw the engine in there.

 

Space_Ghost, I'm not sure I understand what "heavily optimized" would mean if all the parts are still there. Do you mean they aren't each individually damageable any more? I'm not sure I'd agree, but I think we're both just going off of feelings, I certainly am. I would love to hear more about this from the devs in any case.

 

And I'd agree with Pragr the lack of granular fuel tank damage stinks, looking forward to that since it's in The Plan as I understand it.

[Danziger]

 

That is in the game. I don't see any engine parts or other interior parts from that video.

 

That is why there is so much use of the big black hole decals for damage instead of actual holes. 

Edited January 20, 2017 by BorysVorobyov

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

I'm not sure I would trust the skin viewer to load up the entire damage model and all relevant parts inside the aircraft. A better test would be to look inside the aircraft in-game, which it seems Asgar has done and he saw the engine in there.

 

Space_Ghost, I'm not sure I understand what "heavily optimized" would mean if all the parts are still there. Do you mean they aren't each individually damageable any more? I'm not sure I'd agree, but I think we're both just going off of feelings, I certainly am. I would love to hear more about this from the devs in any case.

 

And I'd agree with Pragr the lack of granular fuel tank damage stinks, looking forward to that since it's in The Plan as I understand it.

 

What I mean when I refer to optimization is that the LaGG we have now isn't built from as many components as that pre-alpha exploded diagram would leave us to believe.

 

I am aware that one can use F11 to try to sneak a view of the components that make up the airframe - if you take the time to do this you will see that the tail section of nearly every fuselage is empty, components like wing spars/structural ribbing/etc are low-poly, low resolution. The engine and guns are low-poly, low resolution - in some birds they don't seem to exist at all. I'm partially curious if what we see there is the LaGG built for Cliffs (with an engine cowling that can be shot off  ) prior to being optimized/ported for BOS.

 

I'm not saying that this is a game-breaker - it's absolutely not... But you've got to admit... Cliffs has a very eye catching damage model. In a perfect world it would be nice to combine the dynamic damage model of BOS with the gorgeous visual damage model from Cliffs.

 

As for the tank damage modeling - I agree and I do believe it is in the plan as you stated.

-snip-

 

That is in the game. I don't see any engine parts or other interior parts from that video.

 

That is why there is so much use of the big black hole decals for damage instead of actual holes. 

 

Borys - thank you for taking the time to take these screen caps.

Edited January 20, 2017 by 4./JG52_Space_Ghost

[curiousGamblerr]

...

 

That is in the game. I don't see any engine parts or other interior parts from that video.

 

That is why there is so much use of the big black hole decals for damage instead of actual holes. 

 

Well I stand corrected, thanks for checking.

 

Edit: Ya, I'm with you on all that above Space_Ghost. I never got into CloD but have seen some very cool screenshots for sure.

Edited January 20, 2017 by 19.GIAP//curiousGamblerr

[Danziger]

I imagine it is on the very long list of things to do. The physics of the BoX damage model is the best in the business but the visual representation of damage in CloD is the best in the business. Hopefully it is something that will be improved in the future. 

[Asgar]

still there

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

you have never flown the Ju-88 have you?     

yes but the ju-88 take off roll is very straight and easy to control..

 

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

still there

 

 

-snip-

 

What does the rear fuselage look like?

 

Also, can you check Borys' results and verify that these components are visible in the LaGG as well?

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

I think those inside parts system exists as interactive objects (can be damaged to) but not all have visual representation in the game render.

[Danziger]

still there

2017_1_20__14_40_56.jpg2017_1_20__14_41_11.jpg2017_1_20__14_41_23.jpg

Why so much interior detail in 109s and not Russian fighters? German bias! 

[Asgar]

Why so much interior detail in 109s and not Russian fighters? German bias! 

no it's russian bias, why do you think the German engines die so much faster after they're hit...because they're actually there!!!

[216th_Jordan]

no it's russian bias, why do you think the German engines die so much faster after they're hit...because they're actually there!!!

 

lol.

Edited January 20, 2017 by 216th_Jordan

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

no it's russian bias, why do you think the German engines die so much faster after they're hit...because they're actually there!!!

LMAO please don't bring that WT trash here...

 

1 article where 1 person said the word russian bias and it snowballed from there.

yes thats where it started (just like the BS that Vaccines Cause Autism, 1 moron doctor wrote 1 stupid article once and idiots took it to far)

[Asgar]

here are some more. the only one with engine seems to be the F-4 (G-2 as well since their mostely identical) the Yak-1s tail has some internal modelling but that's it. 

 

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

here are some more. the only one with engine seems to be the F-4 (G-2 as well since their mostely identical) the Yak-1s tail has some internal modelling but that's it. 

 

-snip-

 

A definite bummer, although not a game breaker.

[J2_Jakob]

I killed yesterday enemy pilot flaying with closed canopy, 90 deg. angle cannon shot - striaght into his head and he died but canopy was intact ...

 

Different thing happened to me on the Berloga fastfood server last week. One cannon shell hit something in my 109's canopy - maybe the releasing lever? While the pilot was unharmed, the whole canopy departed immediately and that was the end of controllable flight.