Please remind me of the upcoming Flight Dynamics tunning...

[Guest deleted@50488]

I am lost in the list of Developers Notes.

 

1)  I believe I read that somehere between February and March 2017 we can get an update that will bring "new life" to the already breathing A-3, when the A-5 also becomesd available, but at the same time some important updates that will try to fix the overdone roll-yaw coupling, right ?

 

2)​ But I'm not sure it was also meant to be a fix for the "bouncing" / "wobbling" that affects pretty much all aircraft when sudden pitch and return to neutral inputs are used, and are particularly noticeable in the 109s and 190 ?

 

Item 2)​ is a must for me. That still present all-of-a-sudden return to the previous pitch / AoA when a sudden pitch down or pitch up, followed return to neutral stick position is performed ?

[Finkeren]

The other major improvement aside from the Fw 190 stall limits will be a re-do of the modeling of airflow over the rudder for all planes (turns out the one used was too simplistic and created effects that don't happen IRL) This will significantly decrease the amount of roll induced by rudder movement, so roll rates will generally be slower (relying mostly on ailerons) and there will likely be more noticable differences in roll rates between planes.

 

Some think that this will also help with the "wobbling" issue that some claim plague especially the Bf 109. I'm not so sure of that.

 

Personally I have never experienced said wobbling, the 109 is not a very directionally stable aircraft, unlike the 190, but it's no orse than, say, the La-5 and a good deal better than the I-16 and has much less vibration.

[303_Kwiatek]

Jcomm mean probably about spring pitch effect which is most noticable in axis planes (109) so its mean plane imidietly want to return to original flight patch before disturb.

[Finkeren]

Jcomm mean probably about spring pitch effect which is most noticable in axis planes (109) so its mean plane imidietly want to return to original flight patch before disturb.

I know what it means, I just don't notice it, and I really doubt it'll be fixed by the the rudder changes, since the rudder issue is one that affects all aircraft.

[Guest deleted@50488]

Thx guys,

 

strange you can't notice it Finkeren ?  I use a TS16000 and it is really annoying for me, and distracting TBH.

 

I still look forward for it to become addressed.

[Matthias_PDX]

You mean that massive swinging back and forth the 109 does at low speed at the top of a climb? You've never noticed that in this sim?

[Lusekofte]

I flew the LAGG for first time on a very long time yesterday, it did not even bounce once when I landed it one of the times. So I am surprised you are saying bouncing in a general manner. I bounce only when I get cocky in my landings, before I was lucky if I had a complete LAGG after landing, now it is pretty much close to perfect landings every time , two small undramatic bounces at most, and then I know I was the cause

Edited January 17, 2017 by 216th_LuseKofte

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

I flew the LAGG for first time on a very long time yesterday, it did not even bounce once when I landed it one of the times. So I am surprised you are saying bouncing in a general manner. I bounce only when I get cocky in my landings, before I was lucky if I had a complete LAGG after landing, now it is pretty much close to perfect landings every time , two small undramatic bounces at most, and then I know I was the cause

 

He isn't talking about bouncing on landings... He's talking about the weird pitch oscillation in flight which definitely is a thing.

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

Are you Adjusting the 109 Stabilizer Trim to counter these effects.

Stab trim is not elevator trim and plays more of a roll then just holding the nose at position X

[Matthias_PDX]

Are you Adjusting the 109 Stabilizer Trim to counter these effects.

 

Stab trim is not elevator trim and plays more of a roll then just holding the nose at position X

Oh man..... Lol. Stab trim IS the elevator trim in the 109.

Edited January 17, 2017 by MatthiasAlpha

[Semor76]

The TO is right.I can confirm both issues. The bouncing / wobbling and the wired rudder input effects.

 

This affects all Planes in the Game.The Germans and the Soviets as well. Its annoying as hell and a real Showstopper for me. Tbh...it also keeps me away from playing for the moment.

 

I did Flightsimming for over 20 Years now,and never had such problems with the FM´s behavior in any of my Games. Its like you´ll fight more with your Plane to keep it halfway  in line as to fight your opponent ^^

 

Hope this issues get fixed with the upcoming patch.

 

Cheers.

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

Oh man..... Lol. Stab trim IS the elevator trim in the 109.

it has a similar effect but it is NOT Ever Elevator trim..

 

It completely Alter the planes Incidence angles between the tail plane and wing.

This completely alters the available (min max) angle of attack possible (also alters the wing loading by shifting the area of max dynamic pressure fore or aft.

This Alters the Airflow over the entire tail section and on some planes even the compression after the wings trailing edge before it hits the tail is effected.

 

Where as trim just alters the airflow over ONLY the control surface panel directly .

 

I know i am right on this i have built countless Radio control models and gliders and this is VERY VERY Important (altering incidence angles is MAJOR)

 

Can an Aero Engineer on here please post the proper references materials on what Stab Trim does Versus Elevator trim for the good of all those in here

So i do not need to post a video from Aircrash investigation talking about stab trim.

[Matthias_PDX]

The 109 in this game does not have elevator trim. If has the horizontal stab trim. The vertical stab trim is not available and don't believe was ever adjustable by the pilot in cockpit.

 

Actually let me rephrase that. The rudder on the vertical stab didn't have adjustable trim.

Edited January 17, 2017 by MatthiasAlpha

[von_Tom]

 

You're talking about different things - adjustable stabiliser v trim.

 

It's a non issue. Unlike the pitch oscillation that I do get.

 

Von Tom

[ACG_pezman]

For a quick fix to the wobbling, go into the settings under "input devices" and play with the noise filter. I have .3 set right now but it helped dramatically for me with the wobble.

 

The filter effects all axis inputs, so not just the joystick.

[Matthias_PDX]

I'm referring to the horizontal swinging of the nose which can't be adjusted for other than by flight control input for the plane in question.

 

Regardless of that, I always wondered if the effect was accurate or not as it seemed so pronounced. Not expecting the FM tuning to change this behavior though.

[ITAF_Cymao]

 

 

I just don't notice

ah well, then there isnt the problem!

 

 

For a quick fix to the wobbling, go into the settings under "input devices" and play with the noise filter

If the wobbling is a mistake, then it must be fixed by the developers, not by our input settings!

If is a mistake, to fix it maybe we should just wait for the release of BF 109 K4...

 

S!

[Lusekofte]

 

 

He isn't talking about bouncing on landings...

Oh another topic among many others. Yes kind of getting used to that, do not think of it anymore 

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

 

 

Personally I have never experienced said wobbling, the 109 is not a very directionally stable aircraft, unlike the 190, but it's no orse than, say, the La-5 and a good deal better than the I-16 and has much less vibration.

 

You can see kind of "wobbling" in almost in all videos, for example in todays  posted video: go to 1:00 min. 

 

Edited January 17, 2017 by 307_Tomcat

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

-snip-

 

[Guest deleted@50488]

For a quick fix to the wobbling, go into the settings under "input devices" and play with the noise filter. I have .3 set right now but it helped dramatically for me with the wobble.

 

The filter effects all axis inputs, so not just the joystick.

 

Tried that - thx for th suggestion btw - and went flying in the LagG3 - still wobbles "like mad" :-/

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

For a quick fix to the wobbling, go into the settings under "input devices" and play with the noise filter. I have .3 set right now but it helped dramatically for me with the wobble.

 

The filter effects all axis inputs, so not just the joystick.

 

I'm not trying to be that guy but the issue is with the general flight model - all aircraft suffer from varying degrees of exaggerated pitch oscillation and it goes deeper than tweaking sensitivities/noise filters.

 

Edit: I think we hear this more regarding the LW aircraft due to the relation of the vert-stab and stick force modeling versus trim tabs and generally less responsive controls for VVS birds.

Edited January 17, 2017 by 4./JG52_Space_Ghost

[Lusekofte]

This is in about all planes I flown , it is a game dynamic sort of thing, a misunderstood atmospheric simulation or simply something wrong . In the early days it was worse on the lighter aircraft, making me choose the heavier russian planes. I remember flying the He 111 and it acted like a helium baloon I blamed the HE 111 itself for that. 

I guess it is still most noticeable in lighter planes, the IL 2 got it too, but it seems to be easier to counter/ avoid. same with the PE 2.

[ShamrockOneFive]

I know what it means, I just don't notice it, and I really doubt it'll be fixed by the the rudder changes, since the rudder issue is one that affects all aircraft.

 

Thx guys,

 

strange you can't notice it Finkeren ?  I use a TS16000 and it is really annoying for me, and distracting TBH.

 

I still look forward for it to become addressed.

 

I believe that it affects some folks and maybe its there for all of us but I'm with Finkeren that I just don't notice it. It doesn't bother me in the slightest.

 

If they take it away... maybe then I'll notice? I've been flying previously on an X-52 and now on a VKB Gladiator.

 

The rudder roll thing I do notice and it'll be interesting when they introduce that change. I appreciate that kind of attention to flight modeling detail.

[ITAF_Cymao]

but I'm with Finkeren that I just don't notice it. It doesn't bother me in the slightest.

We didnt have doubts...

 

S!

Edited January 18, 2017 by ITAF_Cymao

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

I don't really understand the Problem of what some call the "wobble". What exactly is it? If you fly without Trubulence and Wind the Aircraft are Perfectly Easy to aim and fly. That is of course given that you Control your Aircraft smoothly. Rapid Control Inputs IRL are used to test an Airframe for Oscillation behaviour. 

[ShamrockOneFive]

We didnt have doubts...

 

S!

 

I guess I'm not being very clear. While I think you guys think it exists... I'm not 100% convinced

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

those of you with "Wobbling"

So you have Rudder mapped to joystick twist?

also as stated above have you tested for wobble in a true 0 wind test map

Edited January 18, 2017 by =r4t=Sshadow14

[Guest deleted@50488]

I would better explain with a movie, but I can't record one right now,... Anyway "Bismarck" talks about the effect in this interesting video, and it's well portrayed around 00:50, problem for me being that I do not think this should have to do with joystick calibration but pertains to the flight dynamics engine used in the sim:

 

 

Apart from the yaw/roll coupling ( probably tied among other effects to overdone efficiency of the tail surfaces in IL-2's flight dynamics model ? ) there is a tendency of all aircraft to behave like tied to rubber band when perturbed in pitch from a trimmed stable slight situation.

 

Short and long ( phugoid ) period oscillations are OK, but any aircraft you pick, if flown wings level, at a given power setting, trimmed in all axis the best you can, say, to fly wings level and with minimal to none sideslip, will respond abruptly to a pitch input ( negative or positive ) with the stick being released ASAP and returning to neutral, or manually brought to it's initial position. If we look at the relative position of it's cowling ( in a single prop aircraft ) to the horizon, it'll instantly return towards it's initial attitude in a strange, unrealistic ( according to how this happens IRL at least in the aircraft I types  have flown ) way, as if it was tied by rubber band to that position.

 

It doesn't feel like the short period pitch stability nor long one (phugoid), and looks more like some sort of "instantaneous phugoid" as if we could observe it in a video played at a higher speed than the one it was recoded in.

 

This has implications on the aircraft control under many situations.

 

Could also be due to the way the static margin is used / calculated in the sim ?

Edited January 18, 2017 by jcomm

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Jcomm this wobble is as long as i can remember and it's present in Rise of flight to, but those kites are slow and ppl just learn to copy with it and are using pitch axie curves. Because of it "the game" is more challenging and it's hard to aim during those oscillations. This for sure prevent "sniper shots" but i sign in for combat simulator as advertised. I hope this would be fixed by devs someday.

[Dakpilot]

One of the problems is that in a real aircraft (not flying) if you release the joystick it will not move,except for in some instances the physical weight of elevator etc. a desktop joystick has a self centering spring which if you translate to real life strengths would be rather strong, a large degree more than the factor of control surface weight

 

In RL the 'return to neutral' is influenced by trim settings and aerodynamic forces on the control surfaces etc. 

 

In a desktop joystick there is indeed a 'rubber band' (spring) always trying to return to centre that is always not connected or influenced in anyway by outside forces from FM programming of the sim and flight conditions

 

In a real aircraft at speed there are forces and weight on the control stick which although in most cases are easily dealt with ( some aircraft got very heavy controls at some speeds/conditions)

 

In the sim this is reflected to a certain extent, but you are still able to move control surfaces at a very non real life speed and there is still a spring which has an equivalent very strong RL force which is disconnected from sim or aero influence

 

It would be interesting to also do these wobble/bounce back tests with a decent length stick extension on an FFB Joystick.

 

As FM's and the environment that flight sims portray get more sophisticated the 'balance' of making it playable (and believable) with a $30 joystick and also giving similar and accurate results with a much more higher end joystick becomes harder

 

I wonder if anyone in this community owns one of those new (very expensive) civil style FFB control yokes?

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Guest deleted@50488]

Your arguments make sense Dakpilot, but that's not the case here, because it is really overdone IMO...

 

I took 1 flight last weekend to test it thorughly on a Pw6-U glider, and even used cardboard to memmorize the exact stick positions.

 

I trimmed in flight several times, then pushed or pulled the stick abruptly, and let go of it - return to the exact same starting point was immediate, but nose stayed pretty much at the new attitude, slowly returning to the initial one and then initiating the typical phugoid oscillation. The short period oscillation is way overdone in IL.2 in every aircraft, and it bounces around too...

 

Then think of the aerobatic aircraft, like an Extra or a Pitts where the pilot himself gives sudden, brisk / abrupt inputs and manually returns the stick to the original position, and the aircraft stays put at the new attitude / pitch / AoA.... or bank...

 

If we do the same in IL.2, instead of letting go of the stick, pulling or pushing it back to the original position, then the same wobbling happens...

Edited January 18, 2017 by jcomm

[Dakpilot]

Your arguments make sense Dakpilot, but that's not the case here, because it is really overdone IMO...

 

 

 

Don't worry I do agree, which is why I started with "one of the problems" 

 

any improvements to FM fidelity are welcomed, and we have seen a lot over the course of the sim

 

Many people (no-one intentionally singled out, but it certainly has been said) say 

 

"HAH! you said it was correct! now you have changed it , this must mean you were wrong!"

 

I do not think the Dev's ever think it is "perfectly correct" simply as correct as they can, at 'this time' within budget and time constraints, FM will be ever developing/evolving and that is good for all of us

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

It would be interesting to also do these wobble/bounce back tests with a decent length stick extension on an FFB Joystick.

 

Yes it's present on FF joy, for example in mig3 you can feel hard kick back during hard sudden pitch axie pull or push.

[Guest deleted@50488]

Yes,

 

actually I think X-Plane, Aerofly FS 2, DCS World and IL.2 BoX as well as Rise of Flight all use the blade element theory approach. While it sounds great, fine tuning an aircraft model in a PC-based flight simulator to cope with all of the missing data and make the various element contributions sum up to something plausible cane really become a nightmare.

 

Although the announced changes refer only to yaw-roll coupling, something makes me think that somehow we could also get some nice side effects regarding this overdone return to trimmed AoA after a pitch perturbation. It may also be due to the overdone efficiency of the tail surfaces that the upcoming patch is fixing ( ? )

 

I would also expect that the reduction in efficiency of the tail surfaces may take much more challenging, but also much more realistic takeoffs when the rudder / elevator efficiencies are still insufficient to properly steer some of the aircraft without recurring to locked tailwheel mechanisms or asymmetric toe braking...  As it is right now, for instance, I find that all of the aircraft respond at taxi and initial takeoff power settings to effectively to rudder inputs.

 

Here's a nice example of, although being a different aircraft with an incomparable power/weight ratio, I believe pitch, roll and yaw inertia and control response looks just like IRL for similar aircraft.

 

 

And IRL

 

Edited January 18, 2017 by jcomm

[Blutaar]

Whoa that rollrate, insane.

 

What is the downsideeffect of such large alerions, why we didnt find something like that in WW2 fighterplanes?

Edited January 18, 2017 by Ishtaru

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Whoa that rollrate, insane.

 

What is the downsideeffect of such large alerions, why we didnt find something like that in WW2 fighterplanes?

I-16 and MiG-3 have such large Ailerons, and the Yak also has quite large ones. 

Large Surfaces tend to stiffen up quite a lot faster with Speed than Smaller ones I think. 

[Holtzauge]

Yes,

 

actually I think X-Plane, Aerofly FS 2, DCS World and IL.2 BoX as well as Rise of Flight all use the blade element theory approach. While it sounds great, fine tuning an aircraft model in a PC-based flight simulator to cope with all of the missing data and make the various element contributions sum up to something plausible cane really become a nightmare.

 

Although the announced changes refer only to yaw-roll coupling, something makes me think that somehow we could also get some nice side effects regarding this overdone return to trimmed AoA after a pitch perturbation. It may also be due to the overdone efficiency of the tail surfaces that the upcoming patch is fixing ( ? )

 

I would also expect that the reduction in efficiency of the tail surfaces may take much more challenging, but also much more realistic takeoffs when the rudder / elevator efficiencies are still insufficient to properly steer some of the aircraft without recurring to locked tailwheel mechanisms or asymmetric toe braking...  As it is right now, for instance, I find that all of the aircraft respond at taxi and initial takeoff power settings to effectively to rudder inputs.

 

Here's a nice example of, although being a different aircraft with an incomparable power/weight ratio, I believe pitch, roll and yaw inertia and control response looks just like IRL for similar aircraft.

 

 

And IRL

 

 

Well even if as you say this is not the same P/W ratio and inertia as a WW2 fighter it seems to be quite representative. Granted, the Yak and Me-109 we see below do not carry the same payload as they did in WW2 but I seriously doubt that that would make what we see in the clips below unrepresentative:

 

Yak-3:

 

 

And of course Red 7:

 

 

If you look at these its like the planes were "on rails" compared to the wobbliness in many sims today. I think it probably has to do with how the planes need to be modeled due to the limitations of our hardware but I for one would be very happy if we could get something closer to the "on rails" characteristics many seem to equate with the older generations sims which in fact actually looks closer to IRL. Sure, if you look at the ball in the Yak you can see it move from the center when aileron is applied but also note how it jumps right back and stays put as soon as the pilot return aileron to neutral. Not much wobbliness there as far as I can see.......

 

So if it is possible to tweak this within the constraints of how this is modeled in IL-2 and the next tuning decreases wobbliness I will for sure see that as a step in the right direction.

 

 

 

 

EDIT: I'm of course talking about the "real" wobbliness, not the wobbliness in the camera mount in those clips.......

Edited January 18, 2017 by Holtzauge

[Guest deleted@50488]

Thx  Holtzauge​ !  

 

Excellent vídeos! And I fully agree with your comments.

[Gambit21]

I get the porpoising wobble even in the Yak. It doesn't seem right, but "seem" is all I'm qualified to say on the matter.