The general perception and ambitions for BOS /M/K etc

[BraveSirRobin]

The stories from "Red Star Against the Swastika" do not match the claim of raids of 20 IL-2s.  How did they consistently get 20 IL-2s in the air if they were taking the sort of beating that we know they were taking?  I think they may have occasionally got 20+ into the air together, but multiple daily raids of anywhere from 2 to 8 make more sense for a force that was as overwhelmed as the VVS was early in the war.  In any case, read "Red Star Against the Swastika".  It's a good book.

[II./JG77_Manu*]

Well, we have contradicting sources then i guess.

 

 

 

How did they consistently get 20 IL-2s in the air if they were taking the sort of beating that we know they were taking?

They built more then 35.000.

 

 

In any case, read "Red Star Against the Swastika".  It's a good book.

I have already heard about it, but it's noted on my list now. Thanks 

[BraveSirRobin]

Well, we have contradicting sources then i guess.

 

 

Let me know what you think when you've read the book.

 

 

They built more then 35.000.

 

They didn't have 35,000 in 1941. 

[unreasonable]

Have to agree with BSR on this one. At desperate times you just go with what you have got. Perhaps a freshly deployed regiment might put up 20, then takes casualties so puts up 18, then has some mechanical maintenance issues, 15, more casualties, accidents...etc until you are down to the last couple of aircraft. I think you would only see these large formations right at the start of set piece offensives where reserves are deployed en-masse, at least until the 44-45. 

 

It was no different for the Germans. I/JG3 in F-2 started Barbarossa with an authorized strength of 40 and operational strength of 36 (IIRC), after eight days only 26 aircraft were operational, by the end of August only 3! With 17 unserviceable waiting for repair. The period when they could put a large force up was extremely short even though their combat casualty rate was fairly low.

[curiousGamblerr]

The dude in "Red Star..." literally ends up flying missions by himself for a while after his unit loses every other machine (and most of their pilots). Literally BoX MP

[BraveSirRobin]

Missions were flown at tree level.  That was probably difficult enough with a formation of 4.  It would have been chaos with 20.

[Quax]

Reading german ground soldier biographies, they often talked of attackes by paires of IL2s. They were referred to as a "nuisance disturbance", but nothing serious. I guess, 20 IL2s would have left another impression. On the german side, from Stuka biographies, I think they only worked with their two groups. So the german ground forces very seldom saw Stukas at all. But when they showed up, they came in higher numbers.

[Scojo]

The stories from "Red Star Against the Swastika" do not match the claim of raids of 20 IL-2s.  How did they consistently get 20 IL-2s in the air if they were taking the sort of beating that we know they were taking?  I think they may have occasionally got 20+ into the air together, but multiple daily raids of anywhere from 2 to 8 make more sense for a force that was as overwhelmed as the VVS was early in the war.  In any case, read "Red Star Against the Swastika".  It's a good book.

Not to mention their main missions were to assist ground operations, which is much better done by smaller flights attacking multiple areas.

 

Also the book mentions the lack of training and how nearly catastrophic one flight of 15 aircraft was just simply navigating to a new base. There would probably have been multiple mid air collisions with that many aircraft attacking a single ground target area lol

[II./JG77_Manu*]

 

 

There would probably have been multiple mid air collisions with that many aircraft attacking a single ground target area lol

 

The closed loop, which was also known as the “circle of death”, involved up to eight Il-2s forming a defensive circle, each aircraft protecting the one ahead of it with its forward machine guns. The aircraft were spaced 150-200 meters apart, at an altitude of at least 300 meters, banking at 15-40 degrees. Each individual Il-2 took turns leaving the circle, attacking the target, and rejoining the circle. Such formations would remain over a ground target for up to 20 minutes, until all ammunition and ordinance was expended, after which time the Il-2s would regroup and return to base. The circle was also used for collective defense against German fighters when attacked before the formation reached the target, as the large field of cover ensured that no individual Sturmovik was vulnerable to attack. 

[Lusekofte]

I think you could easily see 20 IL 2 late war flying, but there is no sense having that much over a medium to small target area  . The tendencies to be where they should be, from mid war and forward was pretty well documented. As someone here said nuisance , yes, but they had a tendency to do that in river crossings and other bottlenecks causing people not be able to pass for a great deal of valuable time. I guess the PO 2 recce was quite effective mid to late war.

There where 20 + aircraft in the air when losses was reported at 10+ , or there where more attacks from more squadrons in the area. I really feel I lack information on how many planes taken off, and only read about losses for some reason

Edited January 14, 2017 by 216th_LuseKofte