how do you feel about ramming?

[19//Moach]

just curious as to what the spread of opinions is across the community on the infamous "using the plane itself as ammunition" debate

 

 

please - keep it lighthearted and friendly - this is not meant as a debate on it being right or wrong player conduct (such discussion is thus off topic) - it's a survey of personal opinions towards it for the sake of Science™

[Asgar]

after being rammed 4 times the last 2 session i played there is only one possible answer 

[coconut]

I'm OK with ramming, but against being rammed. And I suspect many are in the same category, although I suspect advertised positions won't show that.

[SYN_Mike77]

You left off my choice: 90% of all "ramming" is accidental.

[No_85_Gramps]

I do not ram intentionally, however, on occasion I have accidentally rammed opponents. Normally it is because I put myself in a position that I shouldn't have. Or occasionally in a face-to-face engagement, when neither party chickens out.

[Beazil]

Ramming is fine. Both suffer damage from the result, so all is as it should be. Unlike some other Sims where one explodes and the other flies off without a scratch.

Thus the "plink ram" seen in some other Sims I fly, which I abhor.

[jeanba]

Did you watch Rogue One ?

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

During war VVS pilots were considering this option some did. BTW they called it taran not ram.

[BOO]

Too many server variables for one answer

 

Ramming accidentally or an act of heroic airmanship is not costed in many servers. You just go grab another aircraft and perhaps wait a few minutes - time you can take to go take a pee. . No penalty for the rammer and the annoyance of being rammed by a player who suffers little or no consequences for their act (especially if you are a bomber pilot 1 hour plus in..).

 

It happens but i wouldn't deliberately do it - as for others doing it - their choice but there is rarely a situation that truly warrants it being done deliberately in my eyes (its a game for everyone to enjoy afterall). 

 

Regards

 

BOO

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

On most servers vulching and parachute kills are allowed, why would ramming be less permissible?

 

I don't intentionally do it, nor do I do either of the above.

[curiousGamblerr]

I've done it accidentally plenty, as recently as last night. But only once do I recall doing it on purpose, and I have mixed feelings about it.

 

I was in an La-5 and encountered two Stukas on their way home. I did a pass on the rear, flew past, and killed the one in front. When I came around to finish off the other, I was jumped right behind him and caught on fire. My engine died and I couldn't shoot, but this Stuka was no more than 20m in front of me, filling up my screen. I was already on fire so I said screw it, moving up alongside him and calmly (on fire) sliced off his wing with mine, sending us both tumbling towards the earth.

 

At the time I was thinking, "I'm done for, behind enemy lines and obviously going down" so it seemed appropriate. I recalled a story of a burning I-16 from 19giap doing almost the same, and I'm down for anything that's historical. I was promptly called out in chat, but ignored it on those grounds.

 

Later, I revised my opinion. This was fresh off of a TAW campaign, but this occurred on WoL. Because of the rules of WoL, I realized that this had accomplished absolutely nothing besides 1) limiting the fun of another player by ramming him and 2) letting him take off another bomber even more quickly. If it had occurred on TAW, where taking out the plane and possibly the pilot had an actual benefit, it would have been different, especially considering I was already done for. 

 

So in conclusion, I will vote " it's a legitimate tactic, historically deemed as "heroic", I don't do it on purpose/often, but it's a possibility we should all beware of" and only consider it in the most desperate of circumstances where the server rules actually provide some benefit from it.

Edited January 9, 2017 by 19.GIAP//curiousGamblerr

[216th_Jordan]

I love it! I actually perfected a technique of pulling up slowly behind a 109s tail. The 109 will nosedive sharply and often loses its tail. If done elegantly enough there will be no damage to my wing. It works best in the Mig-3.

[Ace_Pilto]

How do I feel about it? I don't know, I'm not a woman.

 

Ramming is bad for the aircraft.

[ACG_Invictus]

Meh.  For accidental rams...stuff happens. Get a new plane.  

 

As for the rams done on purpose...well, you can't fix stupid.

Edited January 9, 2017 by ATAG_Invictus

[Cybermat47]

Ramming, vulching, they all happened in real life. You can't have a realistic depiction of WWII aerial warfare without them.

[BOO]

Ramming, vulching, they all happened in real life. You can't have a realistic depiction of WWII aerial warfare without them.

But a realistic depiction requires a little more penalty than having to taxi onto the runway a few seconds later. Deliberate Ramming in the real world was a desperate act of self sacrifice - im simming its a good way to get a kill and hop out for a beer because your too cool to fly all the way home. . 

[CisTer-dB-]

Quite challenging to cut a rudder with a prop. Just saying 

[BOO]

Quite challenging to cut a rudder with a prop. Just saying 

Ah its easy - just line up in front of me on the runway and ill show ya... :-)

Edited January 10, 2017 by 4./JG52_BOO

[Feathered_IV]

It's not very hygienic.  I wouldn't do it.  Each to their own though - if you can reach it that is.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

It's not very hygienic.  I wouldn't do it.  Each to their own though - if you can reach it that is.

 

Edited January 11, 2017 by 4./JG52_Space_Ghost

[Trooper117]

The Ivans did it, and the Germans formed a unit to carry out ramming attacks so it's an historical fact.

 

Whether it should be used as a tactic in a game, where people usually moan about having some sort of 'parity' or fair play with the opposition is another question.

To be honest, nothing surprises me what shenanigans go on online anymore anyway.

[Retnek]

Hm, as a "historical fact" ramming happened. In most cases (>99% imho) it has been an accident - that happens damned quick in dogfight and most pilots had a training not very much more than just the basics.

 

  Soldiers want to live long and prosper like anyone else. German pilots were ordered to ram late in war, only against heavy bombers, a well defined exception for a few, small formations. The Russians afaik never had units that were ordered or even allowed to ram. Ramming - by war logistics - is a horrible waste of resources.

 

  There have been individually motivated cases of ramming due to overpatricotic feelings or (much more plausible to me) hopeless desperation - on all sides. But those memories known today mostly were told by the successful. Looking at the German and Russian loss rates we know about air war by a few survivors of a most brutal selection. Those reports form our imagination into one direction. I very much doubt the memories available to us represent an average experience of the mainstream, the common and commonly killed pilots.

 

 The Russian WW2-veterans simply were not allowed to write down their memories in truth, the German soldiers had a lot of good reasons not to tell what really happened. Most soldiers experience war as a horrible time they wanted to forget as soon as possible - no need to write down that horror. All the veterans feel a strong band within their companionship. So they do not allow themselves to report common, but insulting facts like that shaking of fear, excrements in cockpits, alcoholism, drug addiction, suicides, that general climate of merciless machismo etc. Looking at the sources available to us I am very cautious with what seems to be a historical fact.

 

  Anyhow - I fly simulators mainly because I try to re-enact, to receive additional impressions about a part of history I'm deeply into. From my point of view any intentional ramming in IL2-BoX is a cheap emotion by someone who is playing just a game. Rammers, please do me a favour and enjoy yourself at War-Thunder.

Edited January 23, 2017 by 216th_Retnek

[Lusekofte]

The demand from Hitler and Goering that stated for every takeoff a bomber should fell , Luftwaffe became pretty desperate. 

 Sonderkommando Elbe was a one off. Heinrich Erhler did it in a state of depression .Japanese did it because they are Japanese thinking people . But none are considered successful . Considered the amount of aircraft and pilots lost, even regular kamikaze attacks is not considered a success

Edited January 23, 2017 by 216th_LuseKofte

[Monostripezebra]

Ramming in a war is something different then in a game. Wasting a plane (with thousands of man hours work and materials) and most likely ones one life was a really desperate measure.

I don´t know any wartime statistics, but the chances of surviving a bailout out of a severly damaged plane spiraling down are not that great... statistically only 50% of all glider pilots that tried to bail out (mostly after collisions) in germany since the 1950ies have survived. 

 

 

In a game with unlimited re-spawns and guaranteed survival if you bail out at altitude, ramming a cumbersome, bulky plane like a heinkel or Ju52 that took 2-3 times the time to fly there, takes about 0 skill, 0 risks and 0 consequences. Considering, you could have shot these planes also with minimal skill, it is is just douchy gameplay to show you are a terrible noob. It may look cool once or twice when you are new in the game, but it gets old really quick. And anyone doing it, should be sentenced to fly at least 3 Heinkel sorties!

[SharpeXB]

I'm surprised how much it was actuallly done in real war. Either as a deliberate tactic or just simply out of rage. Obviously there were the Kamikaze. But other examples include the special

Luftwaffe squadron who used their aircraft as weapons against bombers.. They weren't all suicide missions, the pilots gave themselves a chance of bailing out.

In a game even though the real risk isn't there, also gone is the real desperation of war. So it's not a fun tactic and doesn't gain much.

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

Ramming is fine. Both suffer damage from the result, so all is as it should be. Unlike some other Sims where one explodes and the other flies off without a scratch.

Thus the "plink ram" seen in some other Sims I fly, which I abhor.

Not true on many times since i joined this game 1 month ago my HE-111 has been rammed by even i16 and they keep flying while i fall to earth in parts

 

Or i had a headon with a yak @ around 1,100kph closing speed in my BF110 and i exploded he kept flying and went on to kill 2 more people then land.

But its hard to tell as he belong the the well know hacking "top clan" who live just around the corner from WoL Server (5-10ms ping & Hacks)

Edited January 29, 2017 by =r4t=Sshadow14

[216th_Jordan]

Not true on many times since i joined this game 1 month ago my HE-111 has been rammed by even i16 and they keep flying while i fall to earth in parts

 

Or i had a headon with a yak @ around 1,100kph closing speed in my BF110 and i exploded he kept flying and went on to kill 2 more people then land.

But its hard to tell as he belong the the well know hacking "top clan" who live just around the corner from WoL Server (5-10ms ping & Hacks)

 

Might very well be a netcode thing, especially when your pings are different. I had that happen on me too, some plane flew through me and blew up, little damage to me.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Never had an issue with it, but it's only worth it in desperate times (i.e. if ramming will absolutely salvage a critical mission that is destined to failed otherwise, or if there is clear indication that your aircraft will not take you home).

 

It's a last resort tactic. No one thinking clearly will smash a fully fuelled and armed aircraft in good condition into another one just for the sake of it. If you're low on ammunition/fuel but can go home, that's a better idea. If you're damaged but still flying and with something left in your guns, it's better to use that then try to cross back to friendly territory and land wherever. But if your aircraft is on fire, your engine is a goner or your tanks are empty and there is absolutely no way you're even getting back to friendly territory, you're going down. And if you're going down, why not take an enemy aircraft with you while you're at it?

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

another part of the problem...

Server rules Take WoL
"It is forbidden to ram attackers/bombers"

But when people do it nothing happens (no mod comes on to kick them or ban them)

Maybe we all need to start using the Vote kick system.
Player list and i think right click on a player starts Vote kick.

[Fortis_Leader]

A vote kick system is obviously very open to abuse, so let's not.

 

Speaking of WoL and ramming rules, how do you enforce that anyways? As was mentioned above, majority of ramming incidents are accidental. Just the other day I myself wound up ramming a He-111, because the bomber player got the brilliant idea of trying to shake me by flying 10ft AGL, idling the engines and dropping his flaps. Then for some strange reason he got salty and left the server when I couldn't slow down quite as fast in my nimble Yak.

Edited February 13, 2017 by AnthonyP

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

There is already a built in vote kick system..

Just go to player list and right click on them it starts a Vote ban..

the fact you rammed into a bomber still makes it your fault..

You should never get that close and if a bomber dumps flaps to slow down how slow are you reactions to no avoid them.. 

I do this many times and useless fighter pilots fly into me.

Fight jumps me when i hear the sound of his gun through open window i pull into a max G LH Snap roll then RH Mas G 90 Banking turning and reverse my course.. so many monkeys crash right into me.


 

[Fortis_Leader]

So you're saying that you resort to a very unrealistic tactic (drastically slowing down, because apparently "energy =/= life" in bombers...) to force players who employ realistic fighter tactics (keeping their speed as high as possible) to either pull up hard to save you from getting shot, all the whilst gaining an advantageous shot at them, or crash into you, for which you will blame them and call them "monkeys"?

 

GG!

 

It may surprise you to hear, but when flying 500-600kph, 10ft off the ground intercepting a bomber, looking at the flaps of the bomber isn't exactly high up on the list for many players.

Edited February 13, 2017 by AnthonyP

[curiousGamblerr]

 

 

the fact you rammed into a bomber still makes it your fault..

 

Doesn't mean we should ban them. You ban people for being malicious, not making mistakes.

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

my point is. you attack a bomber. when you brake off at the proper safe distance (how can you hit them even if they do a triple backflip into a double twist they should not be that close

[Lusekofte]

I have a tendency to pull up , and that make fighter pilots hitting me. It amuses me more than annoy me. But my guess is that the fighter pilot is not that amused 

[Fortis_Leader]

my point is. you attack a bomber. when you brake off at the proper safe distance (how can you hit them even if they do a triple backflip into a double twist they should not be that close

 

Well see here, anything up to even <100m is a proper safe distance, as long as the bomber player doesn't resort to gamey WT tactics, like slowing down as much and as fast as possible, so they can focus on getting sweet, cool shots from the rear gunner positions instead of avoiding the attack. Of course with the added bonus that if their massively unrealistic tactic results in a mid air collision, they get to go off on a rant about "noob trolls who should be banned".

 

Say that the police is involved in a high speed chase on the freeway. If the chased driver suddenly stomps down on his brake pedal like an overweight rhino and the cop car behind him crashes into him, exactly whom do you reckon the judge will hand a jail sentence? The cop?

[Lusekofte]

Well I am sure you fighter jockeys want to have a stabile and easy target, But most of the time I fly against 3 times more enemy. I have absolutely no intention to make it more easy for you than it already is. If you go through this site you will find countless topics about Axis fighter pilots that want to reduce the little resistance they got in their goal for a easy target. 

Flying 109 in this game is about as WT as it gets, do not even point to bombers about WT beghavior

[Fortis_Leader]

I've actually acquired a taste for Yaks, thank you very much! 

 

I totally see why bomber players do certain things, and I don't condemn them for employing even fairly unrealistic tactics (read slowing down so drastically as to force the fighter to spin out or collide) per se. What I have an issue with is when some throw a tantrum over "getting rammed" (hardly a ram when it's caused by nothing else than the decisions of the bomber) and demanding bans.

[19//Moach]

according to highway laws - he who rear-ends is always the responsible one

 

meaning, the guy who parked his car inside the other's trunk is the one who's gonna have his insurance rates kick up a notch

 

 

this is sometimes unfair - as being responsible doesn't necessarily correspond to being one's fault - though most often that is the case

 

 

I've been on both sides of such events while driving around - both ways suck oodles, I'll tell you that - but when I was the guy who bent the rear bumper of the dude tho totally made it look like he was moving up (onto a merging, so I had to shoulder check while starting) and then hit his brakes for no apparent reason half way into it - well, I was kinda begrumbled, but by the law, I was supposed to anticipate such a stupid thing could happen and drive as to prevent it

 

this is called "defensive driving" -- they do teach that before they hand somebody a license, though many seem to get theirs without holding to any such "details" 

 

 

but then again - if I pull into a crazy getaway stunt to try and shake off an attacker and he slams into me... I don't hold it up to him much at all - war is hell, and this was a risk I knew I'd take by trying to lose someone by means of acting unpredictably

 

 

remember what Forrest Gump said about a thing that "happens"

 

Edited February 15, 2017 by 19//Moach

[hames123]

Ramming happens, I rammed a Russian Fighter today in my Stuka, shot down, on fire, I realised that he was beside me and just jerked the plane sideways. We both died a fiery death in the forest, and he got salty.

Edited February 15, 2017 by hames123