AI gunners way to accurate

[SCG_motoadve]

Was it like this in real life? From what I have read, no, AI gunners are a bit too accurate.

[=WH=PangolinWranglin]

At this point I don't know. There are so many threads getting thrown around about this. 

[Yakdriver]

So i read the OP, and come to conclusions:

A user who does not know if it was like that...
says that the game is wrong. "way too accurate"

so in fact, motoadve wonders if the game is accurate.
but why does he say they are uber, if he does not know?

That makes no effing sense to me.

[ShamrockOneFive]

Was it like this in real life? From what I have read, no, AI gunners are a bit too accurate.

 

We'll need to know more about what your specific experience is.

 

The answer is probably yes AND no.

 

It was probably like this in real life. Attacking planes with guns that shoot back is always risky and dangerous and the possibility of being hit certainly exists. More to the point, any hit from a rear turret gunner is likely to be a little more problematic than from the rear with the same gun as they are firing directly at the pilot (pilot armor options in planes like the Bf109 and integrated armor in the FW190 are nice things to have) and at the engine. Most in-line engined aircraft have glass jaws and any light hit can spell doom to the engine and the aircraft very quickly. Radial engine aircraft, of which we have a few, are a little tougher but certainly not immune. Case in point... When IL-2s started installing rear gunners their loss rates to enemy fighters went down. It was a big enough difference to warrant retooling the production line to add an extra seat and gunner station.

 

That all said, there are some interesting videos showing some absolutely uncanny and impossible sniper shots. These may be compounded by some netcode issues so I'm willing to bet that the problem lies somewhere between networking code and the gunner AI systems.

 

So, tell us what your experience is. If you're a little bit new to flight sims and a bit new to bomber attack tactics, you may need to adjust your approach a bit. Attacking a plane like the Ju87, for example, which is fairly vulnerable to fighter interception seems easy enough but that turret gunner with the MG81Z will make short work of you if you're in his firing arc.

Edited January 8, 2017 by ShamrockOneFive

[Roo5ter]

Do me a favor.  Go into quick mission just put a convoy of trucks in there.  Launch with an He 111, both 20mm mods preferably.  Now go fly super low and slow.

They will fire belt after belt after belt right over the top of trucks.  Its just fucking ridiculous.  

 

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Violations of this rule will result in the following:
 
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Edited January 9, 2017 by BlackSix

[SCG_motoadve]

So i read the OP, and come to conclusions:

 

A user who does not know if it was like that...

says that the game is wrong. "way too accurate"

 

so in fact, motoadve wonders if the game is accurate.

but why does he say they are uber, if he does not know?

 

That makes no effing sense to me.

Statistics just that.

None of us were there in WWII and nobody knows anything first hand.

 

History , first person accounts and statistics its all we have.

 

This is in single player where I find the gunners super humanly accurate.

Edited January 8, 2017 by motoadve

[Willy__]

All gunners seems to have realistic accuracy/hit % except pe2 gunners. Ive seen some videos where they should be called psychic snipers instead of gunners

[Finkeren]

After the introduction of the different gunner levels (previously they were all expert shots regardless of the AI pilot skill level) I actually think we are at a point where it's quite realistic. If you set up a quick mission with novice level bombers, you will see they shoot like crazy in all directions and only really pose a threat at very close range or if you approach from a dead six angle.

 

The main problem is now the fighter AI which attacks bombers in a downright suicidal manner, coming in straight from behind at too slow speed and getting shot to bits.

 

Basically, if you attack in a stupid manner, you will die. If you are unlucky and go up against ace level gunners, you will likely also die. The rest of the time you'll be relatively safe if you just attack from an angle and at high speeds, just like real pilots did.

Edited January 8, 2017 by Finkeren

[ITAF_Cymao]

Some gunners arent accurate and arent very effective, practically useless.
Others gunners are snipers and very efficient...

My experience is in multiplayer where having large formations of bombers is rare.
Here there is a discussion about gunners with some video

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/25018-op-rear-gunners/

[Yogiflight]

Hi Finkeren, I basically agree with what you wrote, but why does my gunner, when I am flying Bf110 or Ju88, almost never hit any slow on my six approaching russian fighter? Even when I am flying straight with level autopilot he only shoots holes in the air, however he has all time in the world.

For me it seems, rear gunners are only effective, when in AI planes, quite useless in player planes.

Edited January 8, 2017 by Yogiflight

[Willy__]

 

 

For me it seems, rear gunners are only effective, when in AI planes, quite useless in player planes.

 

AI gunners are very effective in human piloted Pe-2's...     

[Lusekofte]

I think people forget about the fact that this is a simulation of war as much as it is for planes. If people had gathered and flown in formation and with escort I would agree the gunners are too accurate. But you do not get help most of the time , and many times the situation is like 26 vs 56 like it was to day.

So tell me, do you want live players in Bombers on servers? If you do you need to know the gunners are historical accurate if there was a formation. It was deadly attacking a formation of PE 2 and IL 2 from six.

If you want AI bombers for target practice I do not care, have them without gunners. I am pretty sure you will not find Russian bombers flying in servers against the odds we have today if the gunners are not a little effective

[Willy__]

 

 

-snip-

 

 

Nobody asked about server balancing. Also, it has nothing to do with gunner accuracy. 

 

@topic:

 

IIRC all gunners in human piloted planes are set to the highest level possible. You only have a bit of variety on AI controlled planes.

[Yogiflight]

It would be nice, if I even had the possiblity to attack Pe2 formations in SP. When ever I get near shooting distance, they go out of formation and start circling like fighters. And they are as manouverable like fighters, even with their bombload on board. And they seem to have absolutely no order to attack their ground target. They circle a bit and turn back to their base, with the bombs.

[Lusekofte]

IIRC all gunners in human piloted planes are set to the highest level possible. You only have a bit of variety on AI controlled planes.

I gave you my opinion if you disagree fine but is not up to your f*** judgement to say what is relevant or not. All I am saying you are pretty naive believing this is a pure simulator, it is a combat flight simulator, witch need to take what I said into consideration . Fly P3D if you want a simulator. Damnit 

 

 

It would be nice, if I even had the possiblity to attack Pe2 formations in SP. When ever I get near shooting distance, they go out of formation and start circling like fighters. And they are as manouverable like fighters, even with their bombload on board. And they seem to have absolutely no order to attack their ground target. They circle a bit and turn back to their base, with the bombs.

 

In this I agree the  PE 2 gunners are way to accurate when flying in formation, and the reason for this I think is my above post 

 

7. Comments containing profanity, personal insults, accusations of cheating, excessive rudeness, vulgarity, drug propaganda, political and religious discussion and propaganda, all manifestations of Nazism and racist statements, calls to overthrow governments by force, inciting ethnic hatred, humiliation of persons of a particular gender, sexual orientation or religion are not allowed and will result in a ban.

 

Verbal warning

Edited January 9, 2017 by BlackSix

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

Simple Fix.

Disable Ai Gunners.
(Either a person gets a few mates to fly gunners with him
Or
They have to fly the plane and when need be switch to gunner positions themself to defend own plane if they sad and friendless.

[ShamrockOneFive]

Simple Fix.

 

Disable Ai Gunners.

(Either a person gets a few mates to fly gunners with him

Or

They have to fly the plane and when need be switch to gunner positions themself to defend own plane if they sad and friendless.

 

And what about single player?

[LukeFF]

Was it like this in real life? From what I have read, no, AI gunners are a bit too accurate.

You do realize there are 2 other current topics in this forum about this very topic, right?

[Lusekofte]

 

 

Simple Fix.

Another fix ban all bombers and fly dogfight servers, that is what going to happened anyway.  

[busdriver]

Here's a SP screenshot that had me shaking my head. The AI started a blind lead turn and opened fire around 400 meters. Viewed from the AI pilot's POV my P-40 is below the his nose (because the AI has to pull a lot of lead due to our high rate of closure, and high line-of-sight change). He killed my motor. AI air-to-air gunnery skills are awesome! Air combat on the Eastern Front is a bitch. Lucky for me I had a radar lock on the Dart and lead computing HUD symbology in RL.

 

 

[Boaty-McBoatface]

All gunners seems to have realistic accuracy/hit % except pe2 gunners. Ive seen some videos where they should be called psychic snipers instead of gunners

Ah yes, all but the PE2 , says a luftwhiner German only pilot.

 

Generally speaking the only people who complain about gunners are stats driven fighter jocks who think the kill should given to them on a plate. Pull your bloody heads in. It's only unfair when you're the one getting shot, isn't it just so.

 

Why don't we just ban all bombers? Problem solved and the elitist fighter jocks and their egos will be happy as pigs in mud I tell you.

Edited January 9, 2017 by B0SS

[Boaty-McBoatface]

Simple Fix.

 

Disable Ai Gunners.

They have to fly the plane and when need be switch to gunner positions themself

Thanks for your contribution to this thread. You've got no bloody idea whatsoever what it takes to get a raid together and land ordnance on a target, let alone facing camping fighter jock heroes hovering over a target and AAA fire.

 

Give the guys actually willing to help play the objectives an incentive FFS.

 

Better fix is to ban all bombers. Fighter jocks and big swinging egos only please. No playing objectives allowed.

Edited January 9, 2017 by B0SS

[Willy__]

Ah yes, all but the PE2 , says a luftwhiner German only pilot. Generally speaking the only people who complain about gunners are stats driven fighter jocks who think the kill should given to them on a plate. Pull your bloody heads in. It's only unfair when you're the one getting shot, isn't it just so.

 

I dont have any problems evading the Pe gunner fire and shoot it down. But just look at the forum, how many topics and videos about the Pe gunners.... now compare the number of videos about psychic gunners on 111s or 110s. Its obvious the problem is in the Pe. Im not saying it coded differently than others, maybe the gun caliber and speed makes all the difference.

 

But still, you should get wrecked if you park your plane on a bomber six, but I've seen lots of VVS fighters park their planes on the six of blue bombers and the gunners dont even hit, now go on the other side, the Pe gunners will hit you everysingle time. if you do that against IL2s they tend to miss a lot more.

 

All I'm saying is that the Pe gunners should be looked again. Look at this example (you dont even need look too hard to find more):

 

Edited January 9, 2017 by JAGER_Staiger

[Scojo]

-snip-

Good video find. You've sold me on the Pe-2 gunner problem.

[Semir]

It seems like gunners do not consider the "target awareness" at all - they come online ASAP the target is within firing arc, they have no "correction" where they get more accurate the longer the target does not manoeuvre and they hardly consider the difference between high deflection shots and "straight ahead". Thus most RL tactics do not work against them - that is to stay in the gunner arc for shortest time possible, perform high-speed passes to force gunners to fire high-deflection shots and not give them time to correct their aim.

 

Instead what we have now is a lottery - you still want to shorten your exposure, but not to account for the "realistic" gunner behaviour, instead to minimise the number of times the dice is rolled on the gunner hitting your craft. 

Edited January 9, 2017 by Semir

[Scojo]

Instead what we have now is a lottery - you still want to shorten your exposure, but not to account for the "realistic" gunner behaviour, instead to minimise the number of times the dice is rolled on the gunner hitting your craft. 

That's a great way of putting it.

 

In the video above, the fighter could have done this by pulling up and to the right instead of attacking through the bomber, putting him in the rear gunners firing arc.

 

Just to be sure, though, didn't that rear gunner in the video only fire a few shots? Seems like it fired just enough to rip the 109's tail off. That seems rather suspicious

[Willy__]

 

 

Seems like it fired just enough to rip the 109's tail off. That seems rather suspicious

 

I guess you're new here... Thats the russian weapons for you.  

[Scojo]

I guess you're new here... Thats the russian weapons for you.  

I'm not talking about the power of the weapon, I'm saying it's suspicious that the AI fired exactly as many bullets that hit and exactly enough to deal that damage. It didn't fire any before then or after

[Willy__]

 

 

I'm not talking about the power of the weapon, I'm saying it's suspicious that the AI fired exactly as many bullets that hit and exactly enough to deal that damage. It didn't fire any before then or after

 

Oh... Ok. Yeah, it seems strange to say the least. 

[216th_Jordan]

There were also netcode issues involved. just look at where the smoke puffs appear.

[SJ_Butcher]

I dont have any problems evading the Pe gunner fire and shoot it down. But just look at the forum, how many topics and videos about the Pe gunners.... now compare the number of videos about psychic gunners on 111s or 110s. Its obvious the problem is in the Pe. Im not saying it coded differently than others, maybe the gun caliber and speed makes all the difference.

 

But still, you should get wrecked if you park your plane on a bomber six, but I've seen lots of VVS fighters park their planes on the six of blue bombers and the gunners dont even hit, now go on the other side, the Pe gunners will hit you everysingle time. if you do that against IL2s they tend to miss a lot more.

 

All I'm saying is that the Pe gunners should be looked again. Look at this example (you dont even need look too hard to find more):

 

 

OMG I can't stop laughing LOL, that shoot was hilarious, amazing Russian gunner skills LOL

[Wulf]

I think there are a number of AI gunnery issues in the sim.  The biggest IMO is the inability of the AI to inform you (the pilot) or an AI pilot, about how you/he should be reacting to a fighter threat.  There is simply no communication between the air gunners and the pilot so of course silly things tend to happen - like a bomber flying straight and level with a fighter sitting behind him blazing away.  Or you're sitting there flying the aircraft listening to your air gunners shooting but having no idea at what and where the attack is coming from.  How this could be fixed with the available tech I have no idea and maybe it can't but it would be great if it could.

 

The second issue is accuracy.  As I've mentioned previously on here, my father was an air gunner in WW 2 and on the basis of what he told me, I strongly suspect that many of the AI AG shots we see in the sim don't reflect the true nature of air war at that time.  Essentially what he told me was that it was very difficult to connect with  an enemy fighter and even harder to actually force one down.  He certainly never claimed to have done it, and this was a guy who was flying in 1941-42 with all the opportunities for air to air engagements you could possibly wish for.   

Edited January 9, 2017 by Wulf

[Willy__]

There were also netcode issues involved. just look at where the smoke puffs appear.

 

Netcode or not, in either case the gunners should not be able to land hits in that approach, where the attacking plane is approaching from 1 o clock with lots of speed. And more, if you look closely, you can see in that case (the video that I posted) the bottom gunner is able to land hits on the enemy plane while the bomber was maneuvering. (I think the pilot was dead). Being able to kill the enemy with that short burst is also suspicious, but its not the point here.

Edited January 9, 2017 by JAGER_Staiger

[=EXPEND=CG_Justin]

I think the biggest thing here is, the AI has NO human factor at all. It's all very robotic (aside from internet lag, "netcode" etc.). There is no extreme duress of a HUMAN LIFE being shot at, 20mm shells exploding all around, the primal fear of staring death in the face, the shaking hands trying to aim and accurately fire a weapon at a moving target from a moving machine etc. etc. The sim seams to handle it all as a die roll more or less. Until we find a way make the AI actually wet their trousers and vomit out of the shear primal fear of facing their own mortality, handling it by die rolls or percentages will have to be the order of the day. How accurate or inaccurate this is compared to real life is something I cannot speak for. I personally have never been in a rear turret or a fighter aircraft fighting for my own survival.

 

Realism is not a new discussion for any combat sim. In fact, it's come up in every sim I have ever flown over the past 17-18 years. One thing I always try to keep in mind is, I make a pastime/hobby out of other peoples very real and very deadly struggle, to not only be successful in the mission, but return home to their loved ones without being killed or maimed. In a sense, one man's hell has become another man's hobby, as macabre as that may sound. Either way, I love this sim for what it is and isn't. I get tons of enjoyment and I can live with any imperfections with AI gunnery and otherwise. We have come a long way since MS CFS1 folks, it isn't "that bad" in my opinion. You could always load up CFS1 and see for yourself! I even have an original CD ROM I can loan someone.

 

I have to say though, the video of the Pe-2 ventral turret sniping the 109 on the way down....HYSTERICAL! click> "Finish Spectate"....next sortie. 

 

~Justin

[Lanzfeld]

I think the biggest thing here is, the AI has NO human factor at all. It's all very robotic (aside from internet lag, "netcode" etc.). There is no extreme duress of a HUMAN LIFE being shot at, 20mm shells exploding all around, the primal fear of staring death in the face, the shaking hands trying to aim and accurately fire a weapon at a moving target from a moving machine etc. etc. :

Well, to be fair, neither does the player. Attacking another armed aircraft with zero sense of fear.

[=EXPEND=CG_Justin]

Well, to be fair, neither does the player. Attacking another armed aircraft with zero sense of fear.

 You are absolutely correct. Hence the reason I said we make a pastime out of what was once a very deadly ordeal.

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

And what about single player?

in single player the balance hardly matters as the ai are not going to cry if you shoot them down because they were sat on your 6 for ages. 

[150GCT_Veltro]

Pe-2 gunner AI is not acceptable of course but the same is for the tail section of the 109 that's is really exaggeratedly weak.

 

The exagerrated exagerration w esee in this video, is the evidence needed for a check/fix, and the same is for the "glasses" 109 DM, at least for the tail section.

Edited January 10, 2017 by 150GCT_Veltro

[Semir]

Well, to be fair, neither does the player. Attacking another armed aircraft with zero sense of fear.

 

 

While the issue of fear etc. may be a fair point to consider for realism you should just look at how a player-controlled gunner would behave, such as their ability to insta-track targets that come into the firing arc (especially those that were originally covered by the hull of the aircraft). Their ability to immediately lay correct firing solution, hold it, adjust for target's manoeuvres, adjust for their own's movement/dodging etc.

 

 

 

Oh... Ok. Yeah, it seems strange to say the least. 

 

 

Not that strange - the bottom gunner has quite limited arc and the 109 just grazed his firing cone. (The Pe2 was turning the gunner AWAY from the 109).

[Caudron431]

I think what is an aggravating factor is the fact that Mg in this sim seems to be much more deadly than cannons.

 

The fact that gunners can fire with extreme precision during even (relatively) high G, coupled with leathality of MG makes rear gunners particulary fearsome (at least to me ).

 

I want to precise that i never, i mean never, attack from dead twelve or six same level nor high and low, even at extremely high speeds (above 550) but anyways end fatally hit very often. The AI Pe2 is one of my most feared ennemy. The only way i can hit it with good chance not to ruin my plane is to enter a diving turn and gain extremely high speeds and attack from below and side so that i can exit high and side relatively fast). It is (for me) very difficult when i fly the 109 for as i'm approaching, the thick frames hide the target and i really have to guess more than to aim, you have to avoïd colliding too . In campaigns you have to go close to them to complete the mission. It's pretty intense! This job is killing me!

 

The other thing that makes this particular (AI) ac to be extremely fearsome, is the way it maneuvers almost like a top ace fighter pilot defending himself. Zig zagging and slowing down with total situational awareness, extreme precision and very high degree of anticipation, so that you can always find yourself exposed even for a lethal fraction of second to the cones of defensive fire.

 

It is very well programmed actually! Often when i'm above and dive attack to gain extreme speeds not to be hit, AI uses this time to pull G and position to put you in the lines of defensive fires. Then i usually break off the attack with a high  G maneuver to avoïd being hit, losing energy in the process, which is bad for the Pe2 is also extremely fast with good acceleration i noticed.

 

I know i'm the kind of paranoïd pilots that hate having scratches on his craft . But when i'm far from homebase, against some defensive fire i honestly most of the time decide not to engage at all and let the bomber go away.

 

If you guys know some ultimate tactics (apart from relentlessly practicing of course), i'm always wanting to improve, so please share the knowledge

Edited January 10, 2017 by Yak9Micha