A question about flight modeling.

[sedgwick]

Whenever i get near another aircraft, my plane begins to yaw uncontrollably. Am i in the propwash of the other aircraft?. Are my settings not correct?. Whenever i fire the guns the nose of my aircraft swings around all over the place. Is this a matter of rudder control?. Do i need to adjust the trim?. I get good framerates and every thing is very smooth,no stutters. Some tips on improving my technique would be appreciated.

[unreasonable]

Are you using rudder pedals or a twist stick?

 

I use pedals now but I recall that when I started combat flight simming with a twist stick, it was very hard not to keep the hand completely relaxed when I got excited ie especially during firing. With a sensitive rudder axis, it only takes a tiny twist of the hand to produce noticeable yawing. If your rudder is not in neutral position when you fire - ie you are in a co-ordinated turn with a small rudder input, it will be particularly difficult to keep that exact rudder input while you fire.

 

Possible solution is to adjust your curves so that the rudder response has a small dead zone and a curve so that small hand movements have little effect on the rudder.

 

If you are using pedals (which are much better) you should be having less difficulty but I still find a dead zone and a curve is helpful (on rudder only) to avoid "spiking" - ie a sudden switch from no rudder input to a moderate one. You only need strong rudder inputs during take off and spin recovery usually, the important thing in most flight is precise but small movements.

 

Good luck!

[Bando]

If your directly behind the aircraft, there will be propwash/vortex whatever it's called. This effect is modeled since ROF.

[Lusekofte]

Colander in ATAG site had a easy good way to explain one of the reasons for wobbling while shooting

 

 

If your plane is flying moving to one side, your bullets will exit moving to the same side.

Is like throwing a stone from a moving car. If the car is moving at 100mph, no matter how fast you throw it out the side window, it will always fly with the sideways 100mph added to it.

 

Edited January 5, 2017 by 216th_LuseKofte

[Finkeren]

Are you using rudder pedals or a twist stick?

 

I use pedals now but I recall that when I started combat flight simming with a twist stick, it was very hard not to keep the hand completely relaxed when I got excited ie especially during firing. With a sensitive rudder axis, it only takes a tiny twist of the hand to produce noticeable yawing. If your rudder is not in neutral position when you fire - ie you are in a co-ordinated turn with a small rudder input, it will be particularly difficult to keep that exact rudder input while you fire.

 

Possible solution is to adjust your curves so that the rudder response has a small dead zone and a curve so that small hand movements have little effect on the rudder.

 

If you are using pedals (which are much better) you should be having less difficulty but I still find a dead zone and a curve is helpful (on rudder only) to avoid "spiking" - ie a sudden switch from no rudder input to a moderate one. You only need strong rudder inputs during take off and spin recovery usually, the important thing in most flight is precise but small movements.

 

Good luck!

It's so funny. Back when I was using a twist-stick, I was actually a pretty decent marksman, but ever since I transitioned to pedals over a year ago, my shooting has become an utter mess, I can hit stationary or relatively stable targets like a bomber in formation or a moving truck alright, but a plane taking evasive action might as well be on another planet, I just can't hit a thing. It's mainly a problem when shooting, flying is ok, but not great.

 

I guess a year of very infrequent flying with pedals doesn't make up for 20 years of experience using a twist-stick. My first set of pedals broke after a couple months and while I was waiting to have them replaced, I went back to the twister, and immediately my shooting improved drastically.

 

It was the same thing, when I was finally getting my driver's license at age 30. It took me forever to get the coordination between my hands and feet down. Something about an old dog and new tricks huh?

 

I'm not saying this to discourage anyone from getting pedals. Just reminding people not to expect miracles.

[Tomsk]

Although for me it was the exact opposite. I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn using twist-stick rudder, I was always applying rudder when I didn't want to or not applying it when I did. Moving to pedals improved my control of the plane (and thus my marksmanship) massively. 

[unreasonable]

It's so funny. Back when I was using a twist-stick, I was actually a pretty decent marksman, but ever since I transitioned to pedals over a year ago, my shooting has become an utter mess, I can hit stationary or relatively stable targets like a bomber in formation or a moving truck alright, but a plane taking evasive action might as well be on another planet, I just can't hit a thing. It's mainly a problem when shooting, flying is ok, but not great.

 

I guess a year of very infrequent flying with pedals doesn't make up for 20 years of experience using a twist-stick. My first set of pedals broke after a couple months and while I was waiting to have them replaced, I went back to the twister, and immediately my shooting improved drastically.

 

It was the same thing, when I was finally getting my driver's license at age 30. It took me forever to get the coordination between my hands and feet down. Something about an old dog and new tricks huh?

 

I'm not saying this to discourage anyone from getting pedals. Just reminding people not to expect miracles.

 

I am an old dog and I love new tricks.  

 

But yes, it is also about what you are used to, which is a good reason for anyone who is going to fly CFS a lot to get pedals as soon as possible. Not that people cannot be excellent pilots and shots without, but if twist sticks really were the best way to control piston engine planes I am sure that 109's and 190s would have had them. While RAF planes would have maintained pedals because the top brass thought they "build character".

 

If you suffer from RSI in your hands, wrists or elbows pedals are a must.  I tend to get it - from years of hand-writing and then typing and mousing, I swiftly add before anyone gets the wrong idea - and the twisting motion of the stick was painful quite quickly. By comparison the forwards/sideways action once the pedals are in use  is no problem.

[Finkeren]

I'm definitely not giving up on pedals. I think I'm just gonna endure a couple of years of being an absolutely awful pilot.

[Dakpilot]

If using Twist stick a bit of dead zone and lower sensitivity around initial movement (curve) can help a huge amount

 

IRL on FW190 rudder pedals acted through a bell crank giving built in curve for this very reason

 

Extra sensitivity at more movement is not such an issue, when needing large inputs you are normally using full rudder anyway

 

Some testing to get the right 'bite point' on the curve for intermediate rudder inputs to suit personal preference may be needed

 

But in real life there is little problem of unintentional rudder input when moving the stick 

 

experimenting with a tiny bit of dead zone on all axis can help prevent inadvertent stick inputs you may be using when "pulling the trigger" but not noticing we've all done it! 

 

adding a bit of "noise filter" can also calm down over sensitive inputs to a degree

 

In all instances the standard settings are too sensitive when using a 'short' desktop joystick (IMHO) but there are so many different types you will need to experiment/adjust things a bit for personal equipment choices

 

Keeping the aircraft trimmed to be 'hands off' in vertical plane at the combat speed you will be operating at is very important, as is keeping the "ball' / turn co-ordinator centered, with the aircraft in balanced flight as much as possible ( or really all the time unless you are intentionally slipping or skidding)

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

I'm used to Logitek 3D Pros, now T16000M, both I manage decent accuracy with, no need for Pedals.

Edited January 5, 2017 by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

[216th_Jordan]

I was not good with pedals too. Partly because most pedals suck. I searched and bought a spring with more pretension and more tension per mm and put it into my saitek pedals. Results got better then. I also found that I was using rudder way too much on a twist stick and this really spoiled my flying. Also make sure to really have your twist axis disabled.

Edited January 5, 2017 by 216th_Jordan

[Roo5ter]

Wonder if people that have MFG Crosswinds still feel that twist is more accurate

[Finkeren]

Wonder if people that have MFG Crosswinds still feel that twist is more accurate

Noone is saying twist is more accurate. I'm saying that after 20 years experience on twist-sticks, I'm still better with a twist-stick than with pedals even after a year on pedals.

[Bando]

I used to do the rudder with twisted stick, then CH pedals, now Milans Crosswinds. It's not even comparable.

Even the CH pedals were waaaayyyy better compared to twiststick, but when the Crosswinds came along.....

Geeezz....

[sedgwick]

i didnt know that propwash was modeled in. i changed my tactics and that eliminated this problem. thanx to all.

[BlitzPig_EL]

Well done.

 

I still have the Saitek FFB twisty stick (Cyborg 3D ?) that I started with so many years ago, though it has been in a closet since I switched to the CH gear a couple years into the original IL2. 

 

My marksmanship got much better with pedals compared to the twist stick.

 

It's just so easy to put in unintended rudder movements with a twist rudder control.