FW 190 worth it?

[Aap]

If someone flies 4/5 hours a month, sure, they might not see the difference. For anyone who flies more, it's pretty obvious.

So can you explain in what way? Because during peak hours it is certainly not visible on game chat in any way.

[Finkeren]

Fink - making me want to boot up RoF

I know, right?

 

Definately taking the Pfalz for a spin tonite.

[Turban]

So can you explain in what way? Because during peak hours it is certainly not visible on game chat in any way.

 

 

You want chat analysis? Sure why not. So much to learn there right?  There you go :

 

"Where did he go?"

 

"Where did who go?"

 

 

"XXX got killed "

 

"YYY got killed "

 

That was an in-depth analysis of the ingame german chat, enjoy ! 

 

It sure must be the FM lmao

Edited January 11, 2017 by Turban

[Aap]

And Red side ingame chat with similarly exaggerated approach:

 

"Privet"

 

"Pr"

 

...

 

Occasionally someone might ask something and sometimes someone answers, but I really have not noticed any difference in coordinated teamwork in game chat.

 

PS. Maybe could ask Gagarin to post a sample of an hour long chat log to see how big difference there is. Would be interesting to see.

Edited January 11, 2017 by II./JG77_Kemp

[BlitzPig_EL]

Even though I don't fly much anymore, I firmly believe that every available plane is worth it.

 

I own them all, and so should all of you.

 

Even the ones you don't like, when flown, will give you critical insight into your opponents, and your wing men.

 

Bring on more planes and I will buy them all.

 

You cannot have too many.

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

This argument is brought forth a lot, but I think it still very true.

 

Compare how much your flight sim equipment costs to the price of another very crucial part of your flight sim experience - the modeled airplane - kinda puts the worth of the plane into perspective IMHO. So yeah buy it!

[Wulf]

So, takeaway from this thread for me is to fly the FW-190 in BoX much like one flies the SPAD XIII in RoF: BnZ and kill quickly, or else disengage and separate.

 

More or less correct?

 

 

That's probably a reasonably fair comparison in terms of a general fighting style - yes.  However, it must be remembered that when talking about flying the 190 we're talking about a particular moment in time.  The 190 has been through a number of iterations here so how it's flown depends to some extent on which version you're talking about.  Most of the versions have presented 'difficulties'.  The one we had before the last FM change was pretty good but with room for improvement.  The most recent one was a disaster.

 

So, to my way of thinking the question for budding 190 pilots should be, do I want to invest a considerable amount of time learning to fly (i.e. fight in) an aircraft that is to be the subject a significant FM revision in the next few months?   And before you go enthusiastically reaching for your flying boots just remember that as currently presented, the 190 is a very 'niche' aircraft.  You can fly it around and you can even shoot down the odd e/a with it, but lucky shots and fortuitous circumstances aside, you will have pretty much no show at all in a one vs one (co-E, co-alt) exchange with any of the Russian fighters.

 

So,  in those circumstances I'd wait, see what the devs do to the thing during the revision and then act accordingly.  

 

And just in case you're wondering I've spent hundreds and hundreds of hours flying the thing, up until the last FM change that is, at which point I decided it was time to walk away for a bit.

Edited January 11, 2017 by Wulf

[Turban]

And Red side ingame chat with similarly exaggerated approach:

 

"Privet"

 

"Pr"

 

...

 

Occasionally someone might ask something and sometimes someone answers, but I really have not noticed any difference in coordinated teamwork in game chat.

 

PS. Maybe could ask Gagarin to post a sample of an hour long chat log to see how big difference there is. Would be interesting to see.

 

Yeah, go investigate the chat log.   Good idea !!! 

[Aap]

Yeah, go investigate the chat log. Good idea !!!

Hmm!? You somehow seriously believe that this kind on trolling approach makes your claims or arguments more credible?

[Turban]

Hmm!? You somehow seriously believe that this kind on trolling approach makes your claims or arguments more credible?

 

 

Seriously , you come here, with 4 hrs/month of game time, tell me you doubt what I'm saying about german team work, that we should investigate the chat log....

 

[edited]

 

7. Comments containing profanity, personal insults, accusations of cheating, excessive rudeness, vulgarity, drug propaganda, political and religious discussion and propaganda, all manifestations of Nazism and racist statements, calls to overthrow governments by force, inciting ethnic hatred, humiliation of persons of a particular gender, sexual orientation or religion are not allowed and will result in a ban.

Edited January 12, 2017 by SYN_Haashashin
Personal

[JG13_opcode]

[edited]

Look at the way you're comporting yourself in this thread and ask yourself if you're making a positive contribution.

 

7. Comments containing profanity, personal insults, accusations of cheating, excessive rudeness, vulgarity, drug propaganda, political and religious discussion and propaganda, all manifestations of Nazism and racist statements, calls to overthrow governments by force, inciting ethnic hatred, humiliation of persons of a particular gender, sexual orientation or religion are not allowed and will result in a ban.

Edited January 12, 2017 by SYN_Haashashin
Personal

[Turban]

[Edited]

 

Look at the way you're comporting yourself in this thread and ask yourself if you're making a positive contribution.

 

 

Recently I was on WOL, asking for support over an ojective...

 

7. Comments containing profanity, personal insults, accusations of cheating, excessive rudeness, vulgarity, drug propaganda, political and religious discussion and propaganda, all manifestations of Nazism and racist statements, calls to overthrow governments by force, inciting ethnic hatred, humiliation of persons of a particular gender, sexual orientation or religion are not allowed and will result in a ban.

Edited January 12, 2017 by SYN_Haashashin

[Willy__]

[Edited]

 

You reap what you sow....

 

  

Edited January 12, 2017 by SYN_Haashashin
Quote edited

[3./JG15_Kampf]

Scissors with fw190 are impossible ....

This Fw is the old one, not the current one. I think spring will be better still hahahaha

[Aap]

Seriously , you come here, with 4 hrs/month of game time, tell me you doubt what I'm saying about german team work, that we should investigate the chat log....

 

 

[Edited]

Look, Turban, I have been playing on WoL for over a year. Both on German and Russian side. Even if the sample size is "only" 4-5 hours a month during peak times, it is enough to give an overview of what is happening in game chat. If you have a credible explanation why Red side stops their superior teamwork during 4-5 hours a month, when I am on the server, would be interesting to know.

 

I asked you an example of the superior teamwork. You gave an exaggerated trolling answer that did not give any attemp to demonstrate Red sides better teamwork in game chat. I gave an example how our different perceptions could be possibly checked from actual logs. You gave a super-trolling answer that did not attemp to bring anything at all to this discussion.

 

I am not calling you a troll. I don't need to. People have read your posts.

Edited January 12, 2017 by SYN_Haashashin
Quote edited

[DakkaDakkaDakka]

I know, right?

 

Definately taking the Pfalz for a spin tonite.

 

Phrasing?

[Turban]

Look, Turban, I have been playing on WoL for over a year. Both on German and Russian side. Even if the sample size is "only" 4-5 hours a month during peak times, it is enough to give an overview of what is happening in game chat. If you have a credible explanation why Red side stops their superior teamwork during 4-5 hours a month, when I am on the server, would be interesting to know.

 

I asked you an example of the superior teamwork. You gave an exaggerated trolling answer that did not give any attemp to demonstrate Red sides better teamwork in game chat. I gave an example how our different perceptions could be possibly checked from actual logs. You gave a super-trolling answer that did not attemp to bring anything at all to this discussion.

 

I am not calling you a troll. I don't need to. People have read your posts.

 

 

No, actually, I gave quite a few elements in my post, but YOU decided to come and question me, despite the fact that you play very little.

 

I'm not even gonna bother

 

[edited]

Edited January 12, 2017 by SYN_Haashashin

[Wulf]

Scissors with fw190 are impossible ....

This Fw is the old one, not the current one. I think spring will be better still hahahaha

 

 

That was a very nice scissor job.  Excellent.

[Aap]

No, actually, I gave quite a few elements in my post, but YOU decided to come and question me, despite the fact that you play very little.

Do you mind pointing out those elements?

I said in my post that for a casual player there is no noticable difference on coordinated teamplay in game chat. Your only argument has been that I "play very little", supported by "rofl", "lol" and similar type of strong evidence, but unfortunately with no examples of what I asked about. Also, statistically, sample size of dozens of total hours over a span of several months is not in reality very little, even if some players spend way more time on the server. You have not brought up any reason to believe that these hours that I have spent on the server are not representing the normal situation on the server.

[Gambit21]

That was a very nice scissor job.  Excellent.

Yep

 

"Scissors impossible in a 190"

 

Not impossible, just ill advised against Yaks and the like - impossible to sustain.

If your actual life was on the line, would you risk it gambling that you were that much better and would kill the Yak in 2 or 3 turns before

you were below your corner speed?

That was a quick fight - 2 more turns in that fight and the 190 is dead if the Yak can shoot.

 

I had a track for a long time of me flying a Mustang and scissor fighting an Oscar.

Ended up with me flaps down, gear down, wing tips almost in the water...I shouldn't have won but I did.

However I would still call scissor fighting with a Mustang against such aircraft ill advised, and most likely suicidal.

 

I've won doing dumb things...but they were still dumb.

 

Nevertheless...great job by that pilot.

 

 

Edit - if I was flying that Yak right now, you'd be quite safe even when I got on your 6.

My flying is as good as ever, but my gunnery is SOOOOOOO awful right now - I need to get back in shape before Kuban.

Edited January 11, 2017 by Gambit21

[Wulf]

Yep

 

"Scissors impossible in a 190"

 

Not impossible, just ill advised against Yaks and the like - impossible to sustain.

If your actual life was on the line, would you risk it gambling that you were that much better and would kill the Yak in 2 or 3 turns before

you were below your corner speed?

That was a quick fight - 2 more turns in that fight and the 190 is dead if the Yak can shoot.

 

I had a track for a long time of me flying a Mustang and scissor fighting an Oscar.

Ended up with me flaps down, gear down, wing tips almost in the water...I shouldn't have won but I did.

However I would still call scissor fighting with a Mustang against such aircraft ill advised, and most likely suicidal.

 

I've won doing dumb things...but they were still dumb.

 

Nevertheless...great job by that pilot.

 

 

Edit - if I was flying that Yak right now, you'd be quite safe even when I got on your 6.

My flying is as good as ever, but my gunnery is SOOOOOOO awful right now - I need to get back in shape before Kuban.

 

 

Well, I'd say a couple of things about that.  Firstly, what we see here  is a rolling maneuver.  You're using your roll to rapidly change your lift vector and slow your aircraft down, and in so doing you're getting yourself out of the e/a's line of fire and forcing an overshoot.   If the (bad) guy takes the bait, and you're in luck, you also get presented with a shot.  Secondly, because it's a rolling maneuver and because in the real world, in 1941-42, few aircraft could stay with a 190 in a roll, the 190 excels at this.

 

However, as you note, it has it's limitations and particularly in this sim because, as modeled, most of the aircraft roll really well (some would say too well).  The other problem concerns the experience/skill level of the opposing pilot.  If you initiate a scissors fight and he doesn't take the bait, but just continues to climb away from you; you'll end up in a situation where he is above you and to make matters worse, you are now in a significantly lower energy state than you were 5 seconds before.  Not a good place to be.  However, at least you aren't dead, well, not yet anyway.

Edited January 12, 2017 by Wulf

[3./JG15_Kampf]

 

 

If your actual life was on the line, would you risk it gambling that you were that much better and would kill the Yak in 2 or 3 turns before you were below your corner speed? That was a quick fight - 2 more turns in that fight and the 190 is dead if the Yak can shoot.

 

 

owever, as you note, it has it's limitations and particularly in this sim because, as modeled, most of the aircraft roll really well (some would say too well).  The other problem concerns the experience/skill level of the opposing pilot.  If you initiate a scissors fight and he doesn't take the bait, but just continues to climb away from you; you'll end up in a situation where he is above you and to make matters worse, you are now in a significantly lower energy state than you were 5 seconds before.  Not a good place to be.  However, at least you aren't dead, well, not yet anyway.

 Every defensive maneuver requires an error from your opponent. This is true for scissors. You need to judge your opponent's energy state well. Using the bearing rate of the fw 190, the direction changes rapidly out of its firing range. If your opponent does not bite the bait, that will at least give him a little more time. Remembering that in my video is the old FM of the FW190, It is not the current FM. FM current impossible to do these maneuvers

[CUJO_1970]

Yeah - it is...sorry.

The object is to get behind the other guy, you can't do that if you can't turn inside him and overshoot.

 

No, we are discussing the FW-190 here and there is not a single FW-190 driver online that is in a "race to get slow", using scissors or any other maneuver.

 

Flat Scissors are only used by FW drivers in an emergency at very low altitude and are never be used for an extended period. They are used only to (1) spoil a gun tracking solution from an attacker, in order to (2) gain separation and (3) recover energy.

 

That's it.

 

Rolling Scissors is different, but it is not and never has been a "race to get slow" by any fighter, FW-190 or otherwise:

 

"Unlike flat scissors, the rolling variety is not a contest determined by which fighter can fly slower" - Robert L. Shaw Fighter Combat Tactics and Maneuvering

 

Rolling scissors are used by FW drivers to manage energy by a series of climbs and dives, constantly trading altitude and energy for speed. "To recap, the most efficient technique in the rolling scissors limits all

turning to vertical planes (i.e., wings-level pull-ups and pull-downs) until purely vertical attitudes are reached. All heading changes  (horizontal turns)  are performed by rolling in the vertical attitude...speed control is very important"-Shaw

 

So - it is an energy management maneuver - this is exactly what Eric Brown was talking about when he said FW pilots fought in a "series of climbs and dives".

[LLv24_Zami]

Very entertaining thread, as usual is about Fw-190

 

Corrections are on the way for the Fw-190 among other things. I'm happy for that. Not much else to say before results can be seen.

 

For the OP, I think it's worth the buy.

[=ARTOA=Bombenleger]

Guys please stay constructive, if someone personaly attacks you, just stand above and show that you are better.

I have to agree that a difference in teamplay cant be measured in the game chat since teamplay happens on teamspeak, but i dont understand how people have to start insulting each other over such a simple thing.

[Finkeren]

Guys, seriously: Lay off the personal stuff or take it to PM. This is ridiculous, you're grown men for crying out loud!

[II/JG11_ATLAN_VR]

Stop These childish fighting please overhaul of Fw190 A3 is on the way expected in march please calm down

Edited January 12, 2017 by II/JG11ATLAN

[Ace_Pilto]

Guys, look at me, I'm virtue signalling. Look, look at me, look at my display of outrage at a very innocuous disagreement that doesn't involve me. I'm so special and precious. Everyone look at me. 

 

Just get back on topic.

Edited January 12, 2017 by Ace_Pilto

[Finkeren]

Guys, look at me, I'm virtue signalling. Look, look at me, look at my display of outrage at a very innocuous disagreement that doesn't involve me. I'm so special and precious. Everyone look at me.

 

Just get back on topic.

Yeah sure. Let's never speak up, when we see unacceptable behavior. Just let it slide...

 

Sorry, not gonna do that.

[tarr77]

I have never liked it in Il2 (Original) was twitchy , and easy to stall.

Same in Warbirds and EAW.

 

I have seen all the complaints here too,but good thing is that it will be fixed.

 

Is it worth buying it?

 

Hi!

 

It's bad in dogfight.

Maybe it has more chance in ground attack rule, or against bombers (hit-and-run).

It's a good plane for sightseeing flights, 'cause it has bubble canopy. XD 

I've bought it but I use it rarely.

 

Buy it to support developers.

[Aap]

What I find interesting is that the expert of Red ingame chat, that dismissed the sample size of 4-5 hours a month during last 4 months, had 0 (zero) minutes of Red side flying time during the same time span on that server.

[Turban]

What I find interesting is that the expert of Red ingame chat, that dismissed the sample size of 4-5 hours a month during last 4 months, had 0 (zero) minutes of Red side flying time during the same time span on that server.

 

 

Is that supposed to be an argument of some kind ?  

[Gambit21]

CUJO - I appreciate you posting where you're coming from. Doesn't change what I said about scissors though, a flat scissors anyway.

 

We were just talking past each other.

 

S!

[SYN_Haashashin]

Ok guys, enought is enought.

 

I was trying to clean this mess up with only editing posts but...is useless. Therefore, I have deleted all personal non related to the topic posts.

 

One more offtopic and Im locking this one out.

 

Haash

[CUJO_1970]

CUJO - I appreciate you posting where you're coming from. Doesn't change what I said about scissors though, a flat scissors anyway.

We were just talking past each other.

S!

Salute!

[rigbyDerekb1948]

At least one of the top aces, Anton Hackl (ended the war with192 victories, of which 32 "viermots", making him the third-ranking bomber-killer) used the '190 when he expected to encounter bombers, and the Me109  when expecting enemy fighters. Major Hackl kept both a '109 and a '190 on standby as Gruppenkommandeur  of III/JG11 (which had officially converted to the Fw190) - one of the "perks" of the position, one must suppose - according to Osprey's "Bf 109F/G/K Aces of the Western Front". (Aircraft of the Aces Series, No.29)

All the more reason to have both in your virtual "hangar".

[tailwheel]

That's probably a reasonably fair comparison in terms of a general fighting style - yes.  However, it must be remembered that when talking about flying the 190 we're talking about a particular moment in time.  The 190 has been through a number of iterations here so how it's flown depends to some extent on which version you're talking about.  Most of the versions have presented 'difficulties'.  The one we had before the last FM change was pretty good but with room for improvement.  The most recent one was a disaster.

 

So, to my way of thinking the question for budding 190 pilots should be, do I want to invest a considerable amount of time learning to fly (i.e. fight in) an aircraft that is to be the subject a significant FM revision in the next few months?   And before you go enthusiastically reaching for your flying boots just remember that as currently presented, the 190 is a very 'niche' aircraft.  You can fly it around and you can even shoot down the odd e/a with it, but lucky shots and fortuitous circumstances aside, you will have pretty much no show at all in a one vs one (co-E, co-alt) exchange with any of the Russian fighters.

 

So,  in those circumstances I'd wait, see what the devs do to the thing during the revision and then act accordingly.  

 

And just in case you're wondering I've spent hundreds and hundreds of hours flying the thing, up until the last FM change that is, at which point I decided it was time to walk away for a bit.

Well, if you can find some 109 escorts and TS, the 190 is an awesome ground pounder, or even a 2+2 bomber hunter schwarm. Team team team. I even love saying the word team. (ref IT crowd...)

[Guest deleted@30725]

I agree with a lot of the positive comments on this plane.

 

I tried it today with a joystick offline for 30 min and not playing with joystick for seven months. All about energy. Keep the speed up. Fast pass and leave, set up for another pass and leave. Don't fly it like a 109, it's not! Don't tangle with fighters as you loose all E and will get out turned and forced into the ground (my old mistakes). I found it hard to stall without fists of clay. Keep the speed up and all is good. I was playing the mc202 before the 190 for 30 min and was expecting a horrible plane in the 190 since I was in November playing with a mouse. I surprised myself by taking off and landing it on the first go too. Even did a 200kmh slow pass round the field with gear and landing flaps and while a bit like a brick it wasn't hard to land. You could feel it didn't want to turn slow. Harder than the 202, but not 'hard' Stalls are scary if you value your virtual life, but not the end of the world. The pit is one of the most aesthetically pleasing imo. 

 

I was pretty stoked with myself too as it missed most of the runway on my first attempt by the time I got it down I had 1/4 runway and a forest in front. Left and right brakes to keep it straight and rudder then when near the trees turned it round on the right brake without any plane damage, just foliage clipping .