FW 190 worth it?

[Tomsk]

Hmmm, isn't sustained climb performance the deciding factor in the rolling scissors? You don't really roll aggressively in that maneuver, whereas the flat scissors is heavily dependent on aileron reversals.

 

Not at all. You can do rolling scissors with a turn rate advantage, in which case it's more pulling that rolls (wider spiral). There your opponent has the sense that they can't make their barrel rolls wide enough without stalling. Or you can do it with a roll rate advantage which has less pulling and more rolling, in which case your opponent will sense they could turn on you if only they could manage to turn in the right direction.

 

In a better rolling plane I'll often go halfway between a rolling and flat scissors and do a somewhat "oval shaped" spiral. In essence taking a flat scissors (roll -> pull -> roll -> pull) and instead make it a continuous motion. If I've already forced an opponent alongside me I'll often transition to pure flat scissors as they are no longer in a position to really take shots at me. Flat scissors is great if you hold a roll rate advantage, but it does leave you quite vulnerable to "crossing shots".

 

Wont you lose a shit ton a speed with those maneuvers, rendering you a sitting duck for the five yaks that chased you down and didnt over shoot you? Seems like anytime you pitch up with the 190 you're losing lots of speed and E. Not to mention with its horrible acceleration and climb rate, you're fucked.

 

Sure, it's a defensive manoeuvre it does burn some E, it's much better to rely on speed and altitude for defence. It's a last ditch option for when you're already used the other ones, and personally I always chide myself for having to use it because it shows my SA wasn't good enough to avoid it.

 

I actually consider all dogfighting to be a failure. Much better to kill enemies with no risk, dogfighting is hard and as you point out it leaves you open to being caught by multiple bandits and being defeated just due to being outnumbered. That said, sometimes you get little choice ... you have to fight or die, and in that situation I've been saved many times by a superior roll rate.

[Boaty-McBoatface]

I have a [edited] Logitech 3D stick, not a 300 dollar stick.

 

It's really rare that I get to land the 190, so that's a mute point for me

The Logitech 3D is a [edited] tremendous stick. Excellent balanced spring tension and action. Basic features and nothing fancy but it does those basics very well, unlike some of the terribly flimsy limp [edited] stuff of a few of the eye wateringly expensive sticks.

 

No excuse.

 

7. Comments containing profanity, personal insults, accusations of cheating, excessive rudeness, vulgarity, drug propaganda, political and religious discussion and propaganda, all manifestations of Nazism and racist statements, calls to overthrow governments by force, inciting ethnic hatred, humiliation of persons of a particular gender, sexual orientation or religion are not allowed and will result in a ban.

 

Last warning

Edited January 10, 2017 by SYN_Haashashin
Lenguage

[JG13_opcode]

Got any tracks showing use of the roll rate in that way?

 

Would love to see them.

[=ARTOA=Bombenleger]

I absolutely agree with what Tomsk wrote.
Personaly i find the difference between a rolling and a flat scissors to be rather theoretical since in reality every scissors fight is a compromise between both forms of scissors. 
So when talking about scissors people shouldnt get to hung up on the terminology, since a purely flat/rolling scissors is as uncommon as it is unpractical.

I also agree with the statement that being in a dogfight means one has made a mistake, this mindset is the most important thing to mastering the 190.

[Tomsk]

Got any tracks showing use of the roll rate in that way? Would love to see them.

 

I don't really have any for IL2 BoX sadly as I fly in VR, so haven't flown IL2 for a while (really eager for the VR support in IL2!). I'll have a dig through my DCS ones, which show the same idea. I've been wanting to do a little video showing the idea as I see a lot of people don't really seem to get scissors. There are people who are better at them than me, but still I might have a go at a little video showing how you do them, what are you trying to achieve, what to avoid doing etc.

 

Of course, if you want to see (IMO) one of the best pilots at defensive flying, I recommend watching Ze Hairy's videos. https://www.youtube.com/user/StalkerOfMolem/videos

 

His older War Thunder ones (near the bottom of the page) are especially good at showing this, and I learnt lots by watching them. In fact I often think he likes having his opponent on his tail, he certainly doesn't try very hard to avoid it in places. He uses lots of rolling and flat scissors, and things in between, seamlessly transitioning as needed.

Edited January 10, 2017 by Tomsk

[II./JG77_Manu*]

 

 

Got any tracks showing use of the roll rate in that way?

I got tracks of out-scissoring a Mig3, it's however from cockpit perspective. Got attacked by a Mig3 with a lot of energy advantage, i start defensive manouvering around 2:10. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU3_nwcvANc

Nothing to do with what Tomsk described, but rather agressive manouvering including a tail-slide roll (not so good perceptible from inside the cockpit). In the end he got an expected crossshot on me, but nothing to worry about. After this we pointed in completely different directions (checked in the replay). If i would've been alone i could have just flown away, without him having a chance of catching me or hitting me. In this case i had help and could come back to kill the basterd But it's at least one example of how to use the roll rate of the 190 defensively, to get away. And this was with the broken FM we currently have, with a proper FM i could've made even faster and more aggresive direction changes, and probably got on his tail (at least that's my experience from 1946 HSFX against Spits and Mustangs)

[Willy__]

 

 

Sustained turn and low stall speed are by far the most important factors in a scissors fight. Only after those 2 comes roll rate. Aircraft that excel in such a fight are light, nimble and have a low wing loading. That's why aircraft like Yak, La7 and Spitfire are almost impossible to beat in such a fight. 

 

I guess you are confused a bit. A 190 would win hands down in a scissors fight against a spitfire (the non clipped version) 

[CUJO_1970]

if you put 2 very good pilots against each other, the lighter (Yak, Spit, Zeke, whatever) will win

 

Yeah, that's clearly false.

 

[=ARTOA=Bombenleger]

Yeah, that's clearly false.

 

You are taking what he said out of the context, he didnt mean lighter planes will always win, he meant lower wingloading planes have an advantage in a rolling scissors. (or at least thats how i interpreted his statement)

While this statement is technically not entirely wrong its also not entirely true either. Power to weight and control surface effectivity are also factors and there are more factors still.

While it is correct that in a PURE rolling scissors the lower wing loading plane would have an advantage (given equal control effectivity, stall speed, power to weight... practicaly never the case) its also true that a pure rolling scissors almost never occurs, and when it does its a pilot error by the higher wing loading plane to commit to such a scissors.

Edited January 10, 2017 by =ARTOA=Bombenleger

[JtD]

WRT to scissors, I can think of situations that go to the 190, and I can think of situations that go to the Yak/Spit/Zero.

 

WRT 1vs1 of two very good pilots, I think the pilot of the faster plane decides if someone gets shot down, and if he's not dumb, he'll only accept that when that someone is the other guy.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Wing loading is less important than weight (and location of it) within the wings. 2 aircrafts with the same wing loading, one having wing fuel tanks, the other fuslage tanks, will perform much different.

 

Without the outer cannons the weight of the Fw-190 is pretty much conentrated around the centerline of the fuelage which means it's roll characteristics are not influrenced too much by inertia.

[Wulf]

Oh for God's sake!  A scissors fight has everything to do with roll and (next to) nothing at all to do with 'turn'.

 

In most instances a Spitfire would have serious trouble if it became embroiled in a scissors fight with a 190 - unless the 190 entered the contest at a much higher speed.

 

When it comes to giving advice to others about how particular aircraft should be used, some basic understandings are first required. 

Edited January 10, 2017 by Wulf

[Mmaruda]

Actually it boils down to speed and pilot skill. In IL2 1946 rolling scissors was the way to go in a 190.

 

Now all that what I have said before, I have flown the 190 a little more and I must concede that the way it manoeuvres and is prone to stall is a problem. It didn't take me long to figure out how to fly this plane and I have no problem bugging out, but man! Getting a kill is something either beyond my skill or just a stroke of luck. Trying to make any sort of offensive turn against a Yak or a La-5, if he knows you are there and knows what he is doing is basically a futile attempt. You need to have mad skills on them rudder pedals to get the AOA required to fire.

 

My current thought is this - use it to shoot at bombers and unsuspecting victims. When the Soviets are on to you, do the shallow dive thing and bug out.

 

PS Not really sure, but I am almost certain it was possible to kill and AI Yak or La with ease at some point, I assume some patch screwed the 190 or something else happened?

[=ARTOA=Bombenleger]

Oh for God's sake!  A scissors fight has everything to do with roll and nothing at all to do with 'turn'.

 

-snip-

 

Well thats a bit exaggerated turn does play a role, how much of a role it plays is decided by the defender, he can choose to make it more about turning or to make it more about rolling.

A turning focused scissors would result in wide barrel rolls with relatively constant slow rolling which the spit would win because it can sustain higher Gs.

A spitfire would have no problem shaking off a 190 in a rolling scissors which is better for the spitfire than just doing a flat turn imo.

On the other hand a 190 shouldnt have a problem shaking a spitfire ... whoever is on the defensive has the initiative in this scenario ... oddly enough.

Edited January 10, 2017 by =ARTOA=Bombenleger

[Gambit21]

Scissors is a race to go slow - not where I'd take a 190, P-47 - Mustang after the first few rolls.

 

It's never about lazy turns - it's about burning your energy and getting the snap shot.

 

I want roll, low stall speed and high power to weight ratio so I can muscle it with my flaps and gear down and not fall out of the sky.

 

Back in the day when I was practiced and REALLY good I killed a won some scissor fights in planes I shouldn't have, against planes that should have beaten me - but I was good enough to go to the ragged edge and the other guy was inexperienced on those occasions. Sometimes he'd just fall out of the sky before I did.

 

I'd get my arse handed to me now trying that as I'm in an online hiatus. Our current 190 is not a slow speed scissor fighter, never will be, nor should it.

 

If a Yak is fighting to go slow, let him and extend.

Edited January 10, 2017 by Gambit21

[Tomsk]

Scissors is a race to go slow - not where I'd take a 190, P-47 - Mustang after the first few rolls.

 

I don't agree, I've conducted very successful scissors at 400mph. Of course to sustain it for a while you'd need to do it in a slight dive, but that's often fine. It's a good way to beat a 109 when you're in a P-51, for example. The 109 is not very maneuverable at those speeds, the P-51 is. The 109 struggles so much with control stiffening at those speeds it can barely roll at all, he's more or less forced to fly straight, so you can easily spiral round and he'll just slide straight in front of you.

 

Chopping throttle or popping flaps is not necessarily a great idea for an attacker either. If he gets spotted he risks the defender taking the fight into the vertical, which the attacker now won't have the energy to follow.

[Gambit21]

If he's flying straight, it's not a scissors - just because you're weaving doesn't make it a scissor fight.

A scissors is a response to being attacked, it's defensive.

Thus with respect, I think you and a few others are not really clear on what a scissors actually is.

Not a put down, so please don't misinterpret - just crossing wires on terminology.

A scissors is a very specific thing, and applying it to other maneuvers will just lead to confusion.

 

I'll find a link to make it more clear

Here's one - a goody from the old days.

 

http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_054a.html

[Gambit21]

No, I think I know what I'm talking about, thanks though. 15 years combat flight simming, used to be very competitive back in the day; 1vs1 duels all the time, participated in multiple tournaments, definitely in the top 5 best virtual pilots.

 

Fw-190 will lose to *experienced* Spitfire/Yak driver in a scissors battle. Pilot skill is everything, I should have stressed that in my first post, my bad. Of course you can find lots of videos of average pilots getting shot down by Fw-190s in turnfights, however if you put 2 very good pilots against each other, the lighter (Yak, Spit, Zeke, whatever) will win, I'm sorry but that's just how it is. That's how it was in the original IL-2 and that's how it is in IL-2 BoS, DCS and all the modern sims. 

 

Yep

[Ace_Pilto]

Is the 190 worth it?

 

Short answer: Yes

 

Long answer: Yes but it will break you and you will cry until you learn energy conservation.

[Boaty-McBoatface]

lower wingloading planes have an advantage in a rolling scissors.

Christ Almighty, this is complete and utter codswallop. Sorry mate I must call you out here.

 

Wing loading does not affect roll in the slightest! By your logic a Hurricane or Spitfire should roll best. Focke weighs 3.8 tons and has tremendous roll and a far worse wing loading than a Hurricane or Spitfire. Wingloading is related to sustained horizontal turn performance - a lower wingloading can turn more tightly at same AOA. Light biplanes as an example of a polar opposite.

 

Where do people get this rubbish from?

Edited January 11, 2017 by B0SS

[CUJO_1970]

Scissors is a race to go slow

 

No, sorry, it is not.

[Gambit21]

Yeah - it is...sorry.

The object is to get behind the other guy, you can't do that if you can't turn inside him and overshoot.

[JG13_opcode]

A rolling scissors is a series of zoom climbs and descents. That corkscrewing maneuver heavily favours aircraft with good power/weight ratios and not low wing loading.

Edited January 11, 2017 by JG13_opcode

[Gambit21]

In either case, the speeds get progressively slower with each turn as both aircraft fight to be the one in the rear.

 

In my plane of existence it's always been a defensive maneuver whereby you turn, bleed energy, and attempt to get behind the attacker.

He does the same - rinse and repeat - scissors fight - race to go slow until someone get's shot or falls out of the sky.

Edited January 11, 2017 by Gambit21

[JG13_opcode]

In either case, the speeds get progressively slower with each turn as both aircraft fight to be the one in the rear.

 

In my plane of existence it's always been a defensive maneuver whereby you turn, bleed energy, and attempt to get behind the attacker.

He does the same - rinse and repeat - scissors fight - race to go slow until someone get's shot or falls out of the sky.

There are hundreds of videos from Warclouds showing high speed scissors featuring 190Ds vs P-51s at high altitude.

[Gambit21]

There are hundreds of videos from Warclouds showing high speed scissors featuring 190Ds vs P-51s at high altitude.

 

I've done that as well - those are higher speed scissor fights no doubt, but the object doesn't change.

I've been in 'high speed' 190/P-47 scissor fights for instance in the old sim - still the same animal, just shakes out a bit

differently. You still have to bleed energy to get behind the attacker - or attempt to...or you're not is a scissors fight.

 

The rolling scissors as a bit different though - that doesn't happen much IME.

Edited January 11, 2017 by Gambit21

[Tomsk]

You still have to bleed energy to get behind the attacker - or attempt to...or you're not is a scissors fight.

 

You can win scissors fights purely based on distance travelled. The defender has the initiative, they get to make their manoeuvres wider. The attacker can't make their path wider, because they don't have the initiative - the defender will just reverse on them early. Thus the defender has a more zig-zag (or spiral for rolling scissors) path, and the attacker is more straight. Traveling at the same speed the attacker thus makes more forward progress and overshoots.

 

Sure you can chop the throttle and throw flaps out to lose speed. That's one way to force an overshoot, but that only favours you if your low speed handling is better. There are other ways to do it that don't rely on low speed handling.

 

The rolling scissors as a bit different though - that doesn't happen much IME.

Happens frequently in my experience because I choose to do it! It's the defender's choice how flat or rolling he wants to make it.

[=ARTOA=Bombenleger]

Christ Almighty, this is complete and utter codswallop. Sorry mate I must call you out here.

 

Wing loading does not affect roll in the slightest! By your logic a Hurricane or Spitfire should roll best. Focke weighs 3.8 tons and has tremendous roll and a far worse wing loading than a Hurricane or Spitfire. Wingloading is related to sustained horizontal turn performance - a lower wingloading can turn more tightly at same AOA. Light biplanes as an example of a polar opposite.

 

Where do people get this rubbish from?

You were citing something i wrote in a way that completely turned its meaning by 180 degrees.

Please read the post again and you will see we are both on the same side here. :D

What I said was, in a scenario where roll [and every other factor] is equal, the lower WL plane has an advantage.

 

Before continuing this discussion we should agree on a definition for rolling and flat scissors, because to me it seems everyone can back up his statements by experience but still everyone is contradicting each other.

I think there is a misunderstanding here because while everyone says things that are objectively true, they are at the sime time missing the point of the other completely.

Edited January 11, 2017 by =ARTOA=Bombenleger

[Boaty-McBoatface]

You were citing something i wrote in a way that completely turned its meaning by 180 degrees.

Please read the post again and you will see we are both on the same side here. :D

What I said was, in a scenario where roll [and every other factor] is equal, the lower WL plane has an advantage.

 

Before continuing this discussion we should agree on a definition for rolling and flat scissors, because to me it seems everyone can back up his statements by experience but still everyone is contradicting each other.

I think there is a misunderstanding here because while everyone says things that are objectively true, they are at the sime time missing the point of the other completely.

Sorry dude. I know what you mean, it's a mess in here at times.

Edited January 11, 2017 by B0SS

[DakkaDakkaDakka]

So, takeaway from this thread for me is to fly the FW-190 in BoX much like one flies the SPAD XIII in RoF: BnZ and kill quickly, or else disengage and separate.

 

More or less correct?

[Gambit21]

That makes sense Tomsk - then the overshoot of the attacker leads to what?

I high yo yo...he extends...or reacts to the overshoot by reversing back into the other guy.

Maybe he falls victim to a snap-shot, or he doesn't.

 

With that first reversal, then the defenders reaction to it once again to it - we now have a classic scissors fight.

Both AC co-energy, each trying to get behind the other.

 

I get what you're saying though

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

So, takeaway from this thread for me is to fly the FW-190 in BoX much like one flies the SPAD XIII in RoF: BnZ and kill quickly, or else disengage and separate.

 

More or less correct?

Not quite. Even in it's current form it is more capable than a one pass wonder. You just have to be very conscious of your energy state. You can turn with her, use the vertical, etc. You just have to keep her above 300 kph for the most part, make larger diameter turns than anything else in the game, plan your moves well in advance and know when to separate. She is not a knife fighter and trying to use her that way will get you killed every time. The overall maneuverability should improve quite a bit in the new FM build but the overall style of fighting in her may not change substantially. We shall see this spring.

[DakkaDakkaDakka]

Not quite. Even in it's current form it is more capable than a one pass wonder. You just have to be very conscious of your energy state. You can turn with her, use the vertical, etc. You just have to keep her above 300 kph for the most part, make larger diameter turns than anything else in the game, plan your moves well in advance and know when to separate.

 

Yes, sorry if I wasn't more clear. This description is how you attack with the SPAD in RoF - you can make a sustained attack (i.e. more than just a single pass) but you have to do so only when you can start with, and maintain, your E and (ideally) altitude advantage. And you have to be a reasonably good shot

Edited January 11, 2017 by surfimp

[Turban]

Just played a bit. Arrived at objective, outnumbered both time. Second time was particularly hilarious. Pe2s, Il2s, fighters... At the very least 6 to 1. Shot down a Pe2 then got my pilot sniped on first russian shot.


Let me tell you, the FW's FM is the least of your problem when playing online.

 

Better stall characteristics won't change anything.

 

I'm personnaly more looking forward to the Air Marshall feature.

 

It's a team play game after all, and you are 75% dependant on the team you're playing with..

 

I love the FW very much , more than any other plane , but honestly I struggle every day to stick to the german team because of the lack of team work , not because of the FM ...

 

My 2cts. FW190 is worth it. Playing with it online is a struggle. More because of the german's lack of fighting spirit than because of the FM. When you are outnumbered 6 to 1, your plane's FM really doesn't matter.

[JG13_opcode]

You are complaining about an issue that is due mostly to a lot of novices on the German "team".

 

Imagine coming here as a novice. What points keep getting raised over and over?

 

- 109 is a beginner plane

- never engage unless you have the advantage, and don't TnB

- Russian planes turn better, so use vertical

 

What happens?

 

Novice German pilots try to fly CAP at 3-4 km and get shot down by veteran LaGG pilots coming in from 5km because they lack SA and defensive BFM skills. What does the rational pilot do? They go up to 7 km where guys like you make fun of them for "trying to be Hartmann" and lacking spirit.

Edited January 11, 2017 by JG13_opcode

[Aap]

I actually wonder about the teamwork comments. I have been flying on Red side on WoL for several months now (not very many hours per month) and I don't see any difference in the teamwork. Not on game chat at least. Maybe there are more organized squads on their own TS servers, I don't know, but for a casual player there is no visible difference in teamwork.

[Turban]

Lots of "seasoned"  pilots flying at 4/5k+, waiting for easy kills, or kills to steal.

 

Lots of newcomers, sure.  But the "hide and seek easy kills" spirit really is the downfall of the LW, I feel. Regardless of flight time.

 

I do love the FW very much, but I don't have time to waste on flyng LW anymore. And this has nothing to do with the FM, it has to be said.

I actually wonder about the teamwork comments. I have been flying on Red side on WoL for several months now (not very many hours per month) and I don't see any difference in the teamwork. Not on game chat at least. Maybe there are more organized squads on their own TS servers, I don't know, but for a casual player there is no visible difference in teamwork.

 

If someone flies 4/5 hours a month, sure, they might not see the difference. For anyone who flies more, it's pretty obvious.

[Finkeren]

So, takeaway from this thread for me is to fly the FW-190 in BoX much like one flies the SPAD XIII in RoF: BnZ and kill quickly, or else disengage and separate.

 

More or less correct?

I'd say it's a bit more like flying the Pfalz D. XII. In the SPAD you can count on your climb rate to save your behind, sorta like the Bf 109s in BoX. In the Pfalz you have great handling and sturdiness at high speeds, great cockpit view and responsive controls, but performance isn't stellar, climb rate not that great and it punishes handling mistakes quite severely. A great BnZer and ambush plane but nearly impossible to come back if you screw up during the fight.

 

Actually it's quite similar to the Fw 190.

[Y29.Layin_Scunion]

I actually wonder about the teamwork comments. I have been flying on Red side on WoL for several months now (not very many hours per month) and I don't see any difference in the teamwork. Not on game chat at least. Maybe there are more organized squads on their own TS servers, I don't know, but for a casual player there is no visible difference in teamwork.

I fly Soviets more often than LW on Wings and can say that it is definitely small groups in their own TS servers.

 

Nothing wrong with that.  My squadron has linked up with others on occasion.  I think a language barrier has some contributing issues with teamwork as well.  

 

A personal observation is that more people who speak English fly Germans.  At least when we fly.

 

That said I can say I see much less teamwork and escorting on the LW side.  But this is just my personal experience.  Not saying it's like that all the time.

[Gambit21]

Fink - making me want to boot up RoF