FW 190 worth it?

[Gambit21]

I find I have plenty of warning before it stalls. Just takes a light touch. (Not that I think it's currently fine as it is) It's a thinking pilots airplane, and will remain so.

Part of the problem is lack of simulated stick forces and effect on control surface deflection.

Edited January 6, 2017 by Gambit21

[Jaws2002]

  When the game has earlier war planes and Germans should have a distinct advantage, [Edited]

  Looking at most decisions made by this team, it makes perfect sense.

 

   Have a good day.

 

You need to back off from these assertions of intentional developer bias. 

Edited January 7, 2017 by Bearcat

[DD_Arthur]

   Have a good day.

 

Lol!  Cheer up Jaws.

[Danziger]

  When the game has earlier war planes and Germans should have a distinct advantage, they porked the 190 based on some bogus data and obviously [edited ]

 

  Looking at most decisions made by this team, it makes perfect sense.

 

   Have a good day.

This is what I was talking about before, guys. This exact attitude and BS posting is the mark of a true Luftwhiner. I know a lot of you guys fly only German planes and probably take offense to the term thinking we are blanket labeling all of you as Luftwhiners. We really only mean these types of posters. 

 

This guy is trying to say they purposely used incorrect data for the 190 FM to make sure it wouldn't outperform Soviet planes because of some kind of Russian bias conspiracy. This is the kind of crap we try to stop and counter with rationalism. The blue players who take time to do research and contribute to bettering the game are valuable members of the community. People who post nonsense such as the above statement only hurt the community and genre as a whole.

[Jaws2002]

I know a lot of you guys fly only German planes 

 

 

[Edited] Pretty much since they introduced this bs fm made from  "sekrit document".

 

Anyway, If it makes you feel better, I don't fly none of them anymore.

 

Lol!  Cheer up Jaws.

 

Hey Arthur. Happy new year! 

Edited January 7, 2017 by Bearcat

[Venturi]

I know this is about the 190, but what's up with that Bf 109E7 falling like a ton of bricks!?!?

Newer FM. I suspect different people are doing different FMs. Some are better than others, some are more accurate than others. It is only a suspicion. But other "sims" have operated this way.

 

If true, this is a mistake, because then there is no understanding of relative advantages in the FMs, and the data/pc is not good enough to be perfectly accurate 100% of the time. No matter the claims of pure accuracy, even DCS which is $50/plane is not that good and needs tweaking at times. Creating a sim from thin air still takes interpretation, regardless of how complete the stats available or good or fair or honest the intentions.

 

The rudder roll coupling is just one example.

By the way, higher sink number means worse dive.

As an example of what I mean, look at dive figures for 109F2 and F4... which had last I flew them somewhat different flight models, despite their only real difference being the engine power output and slight weight increase for F4.

[216th_Jordan]

  When the game has earlier war planes and Germans should have a distinct advantage, they porked the 190 based on some bogus data and obviously,  it won't be fixed until newer better Russian planes show up.

 

  Looking at most decisions made by this team, it makes perfect sense.

 

   Have a good day.

 

If you don't know what actually happend it is wise to not shout out loud. Data for last 190 correction was community submitted, also not "sekrit".

Additionally, the next soviet fighter is scheduled to be released in October 2017 (I don't count the spitfire in June), that is 7 months from planned Fw 190 fix. Think what you want, but the facts are different.

Edited January 6, 2017 by 216th_Jordan

[Jaws2002]

 

 

This is the kind of crap we try to stop and counter with rationalism. The blue players who take time to do research and contribute to bettering the game are valuable members of the community. People who post nonsense such as the above statement only hurt the community and genre as a whole.

 

Guess where the data came from when they fixed the high speed controls on the 190....

 

 

It couldn't be allowed to fly like that. The 190 that could actually turn? NOOOO! We can't have such a nonsense.

 

Here's a Russian tactical report about the FW-190 back in 1942:

 

 

In all probability the Germans have used their FW-190s on the Russian front to a much lesser extent than elsewhere, and the standards of air combat on that front very likely differ from those over Western Europe and in the Mediterranean. The following translation of an article which appeared in the "Red Fleet" compares some of the tactics used by the German and Russian fighter planes (FW-190 and La-5). It should be pointed out that these observations apply particularly to the Russian front and are not necessarily in line with experiences in other European theaters. This translation is published without evaluation or comment, purely for its informational value in presenting Russian opinion concerning the FW-190, as printed in the "Red Fleet." 

The FW-190 first appeared on the Soviet-German front at the end of 1942. This is the first high-speed German fighter with an air-cooled engine. In comparison with the Me-109 and its modernized versions, the Me-109F and the Me-109G, the FW-190 is of a higher quality. The speed of the FW-190 is slightly higher than that of the Messerschmitt; it also has more powerful armament and is more maneuverable in horizontal flight. The FW-190 has a large supply of ammunition, with 15 seconds of cannon fire, and 50 seconds of constant machine-gun fire. For this reason the gunners are not economical with their ammunition, and often open up the so-called "frightening fire". The pilots have good visibility laterally, forward, upward and rearward. A fairly good horizontal maneuver permits the FW-190 to turn at low speed without falling into a tail spin. An armored ring on the front part of the engine provides the pilot with reliable protection; for this reason, the FW-190's quite often make frontal attacks. In this way they differ from the Me-109s. One shortcoming of the FW-190 is its weight. The lightest model of this plane weighs 3,500 kgs. (7,700 lbs), while the average weight is from 3,800 (8,360 lbs) to 3,900 kgs. (8,580 lbs). Since the FW-190 is so heavy and does not have a high-altitude engine, pilots do not like to fight in vertical maneuvers. Another weak point in the FW-190 is the poor visibility downward, both forward and rearward. The FW-190 is seriously handicapped in still another way; there is no armor around the gas tanks, which are situated under the pilot's seat and behind it. From below, the pilot is not protected in any way; from behind, the only protection is the ordinary seat-back with 15-mm of armor. Even bullets from our large caliber machine guns penetrate this armor, to say nothing of cannon. The main problem confronting our fliers is that of forcing the Germans to fight from positions advantageous to us. The FW-190's eagerly make frontal attacks. Their methods of conducting fire in such cases is quite stereotyped. To begin with the Germans open fire with long-range ammunition from the horizontal cannons at a distance of 1,000 meters (3,200 feet). At 500 or 400 meters (1,000 or 1,300 feet) the FW-190 opens fire from all guns. Since the planes approach each other at an extremely great speed during frontal attacks one should never, under any circumstances, turn from the given course. Fire should be opened at a distance of 700 or 800 meters, (2,300 or 2,600 feet). Practice has shown that in frontal attacks both planes are so damaged that, in the majority of cases, they are compelled to drop out of the battle. Therefore, frontal attacks with FW-190's may be made only when the battle happens to be over our territory. Frontal engagements over enemy territory, or even more so in the enemy rear, should be avoided. If a frontal attack of an FW-190 should fail the pilot usually attempts to change the attacks into a turning engagement. Being very stable and having a large range of speeds, the FW-190 will inevitably offer turning battle at a minimum speed. Our Lavochkin-5 may freely take up the challenge, if the pilot uses the elevator tabs correctly. By using your foot to hold the plane from falling into a tail spin you can turn the La-5 at an exceedingly low speed, thus keeping the FW from getting on your tail. When fighting the La-5, the FW risks a vertical maneuver only at high speed. For example, let us assume that the first frontal attack of an FW failed. The plane then goes on ahead and prepares for a second frontal attack. If it fails a second time, the pilot turns sharply to the side and goes into a steep dive. On coming out of the dive, he picks up speed in horizontal flight and engages the opposing plane in a vertical maneuver. Vertical-maneuver fighting with the FW-190 is usually of short duration since our planes have a better rate of climb than the German planes, and because the Germans are unable to withstand tense battles of any length. The winner in present air battles must have an advantage in altitude. This is especially true with regard to the FW-190. "Once a comrade of mine and I engaged two FW-190's at a height of 3,500 meters (10,850 ft). After three energetic attacks we succeeded in chasing the two FW-190's down to 1,500 meters (4,650 ft). All the while we kept our advantage in height. As usual the German tried, out of an inverted turn, to get away and below, but I got one in my sight and shot it down. After that we immediately went up to 3,700 meters (11,470 ft) and met another group of FW-190's as they were attacking one of our Pe-2 bombers. We made use of our advantage in height and by vertical attacks succeeded in chasing the Germans away and also shot one down." When following a diving FW you should never dive below the other enemy planes. When two planes dive the one following the leader should come out of the dive in such a way as to be at an advantage over the leading plane in height and speed. In this way the tail of the leading plane will be protected; at the same time, the second plane will also be able to open up direct fire against the enemy. In fighting the FW-190 our La-5 should force the Germans to fight by using the vertical maneuver. This may be achieved by constantly making vertical attacks. The first climb of the FW is usually good, the second worse, and the third altogether poor. This may be explained by the fact that the FW's great weight does not permit it to gather speed quickly in the vertical maneuver. After two or three persistent attacks by our fighters the FWs completely lose their advantage in height and in speed, and inevitably find themselves below. And because of this, they are sure to drop out of the battle into a straight dive (sometimes up to 90 degrees) with the idea of gaining height on the side, and then of coming in again from the side of the sun with an advantage in speed and height. At times it happens that the FW, after diving, does not gain altitude, but attempts to drop out of the battle altogether in low flight. However, the FW-190 is never able to come out of a dive below 300 or 250 meters (930 ft or 795 ft). Coming out of a dive, made from 1,500 meters (4,650 ft) and at an angle of 40 to 45 degrees, the FW-190 falls an extra 200 meters (620 ft). A shortcoming of the FW-190 is its poor climbing ability. When climbing in order to get an altitude advantage over the enemy, there is a moment when the FW-190 "hangs" in the air. It is then convenient to fire. Therefore, when following a FW-190 in a dive, you should bring your plane out of the dive slightly before the FW comes out of it, in order to catch up with him on the vertical plane. In other words, when the FW comes out of the dive you should bring your plane out in such a way as to have an advantage over the enemy in height. If this can be achieved, the FW-190 becomes a fine target when it "hangs". Direct fire should be opened up at a short distance, 50 to 100 meters (150 to 300 ft). It should also be remembered that the weakest spots of the FW-190 are below and behind--the gasoline tanks and the pilot's legs, which are not protected. Throughout the whole engagement with a FW-190, it is necessary to maintain the highest speed possible. The Lavochkin-5 will then have, when necessary, a good vertical maneuver, and consequently, the possibility of getting away from an enemy attack or on the contrary, of attacking. It should further be kept in mind that the La-5 and the FW-190 in outward appearance resemble each other very much; therefore, careful observation is of great importance. We may emphasize once more: never let an enemy plane gain an altitude advantage over you and you will win the fight. 

[Bumfluff]

If the real thing stalled like that the Luftwaffe would have lost most of their pilots to accidents rather than the enemy.

Remember - it was designed to be flown by 19 year old kids with only a few hours stick time.

[CUJO_1970]

Jaws2002, whats up? Been missing your skinning talents bro. Tread lightly man, the skin is pretty thin here.

 

To the original question - if you have to ask, then frankly the FW is not for you.

[unreasonable]

If the real thing stalled like that the Luftwaffe would have lost most of their pilots to accidents rather than the enemy.

Remember - it was designed to be flown by 19 year old kids with only a few hours stick time.

 

As it happens the Germans lost about as many aircraft in accidents during WW2 as they lost to enemy action.

 

Your second assertion is simply untrue. They were designed to be flown by pilots who had had a extensive flight experience in training aircraft and then in operational training units that used the types they would use at the front.

 

The fact that this standard was hardly reached after about 1943 (and even at times before as in the late BoB) accounts for many of the accident problems.

 

(But yes, it does stall too easily and the developers have agreed - or at least agreed that the Clmax is too low: not quite the same thing, so we shall see).

[Dakpilot]

If the real thing stalled like that the Luftwaffe would have lost most of their pilots to accidents rather than the enemy.

Remember - it was designed to be flown by 19 year old kids with only a few hours stick time.

 

It was certainly designed so pilots could make the best use of it..

 

But in 1938 Kurt Tank did not design it for "19 year old kids with only a few hours stick time"

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Turban]

LW pilots did die from that stall. Again. it was well known and documented. People just read what they wanna read.


Oh, no, now people will tell me that I claim all is fine with the FW.

I guess to some,  reading is just as hard as flying the FW , 

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

This may come as a surprise to you Turban, but you might have added a little to that misconception of people thinking that you claim it is all fine. I´m really sorry that you have been misunderstood for so long

 

Let me try to explain to you, where these people got that crazy idea from

 

"So far the stalling characteristic seemed completely fine. I was expecting a lot worst."

 

"Now regarding the plane's FM.. I think overall it's rather coherent. There isn't any obvious defect. It isn't "porked" by any mean. If I was to think about odd things, it wouldn't be the stall  Nothing to see there IMO. I don't even think about it when I fly. It rarely happens, when it does it's my fault, and it's not a death sentence. Of course if you screw it up at low level and don't do the right thing you'll die, but that's true of any plane.

What would be interesting to me is the energy management. How much energy it loses, retains, gains, etc. Again, no obvious problem. If you do everything right, you get proper results. So it is coherent."

 

 

"I think a "fact" that is always overlooked is that many people are not very good.

 

Too often they will blame the plane over themselves."

 

 

"The infamous stall happens what.. every 3 hours? And everytime I was greedy and/or sloppy. E.g, the target is getting out my line of sight so I pull hard to keep it."

 

"Show us a video of that stall so I can reproduce it without a doubt. Then we see how long it takes to get out. So we can make a conclusion whether or not this stall is so bad.."

 

"The FW 190 is absolutely not at fault. In a good team with good people... now that would be nice to see..."

 

"Even if the FW's FM wasn't 100% accurate , at least it's very coherent and the plane definitely isn't porked."

 

 

Guess who said it! :D

[MK_RED13]

         

 

+1000

[II./JG77_Manu*]

-snip-

You can add his very last post which is utter nonsense as well. 

[kendo]

  When the game has earlier war planes and Germans should have a distinct advantage, they porked the 190 based on some bogus data and obviously,  it won't be fixed until newer better Russian planes show up.

 

  Looking at most decisions made by this team, it makes perfect sense.

 

   Have a good day.

 

This is exactly the kind of garbage unsubstantiated and evidence-free post that gets people reacting.....

 

......but I'm not going to.

 

Conspiracy theorists - I love them.

[Dakpilot]

You can add his very last post which is utter nonsense as well. 

 

What is utter nonsense?

 

The harsh accelerated stall is a known trait of the FW 190, it certainly did catch out some pilots

 

Manu* the only way to interpret your above post would be that you don't feel the FW-190 should feature a harsh accelerated stall ?

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Willy__]

 

 

Manu* the only way to interpret your above post would be that you don't feel the FW-190 should feature a harsh accelerated stall ?

 

And once again you putting words in other peoples mouth....

 

     

 

Cheers Dakpilot Staiger 

[Dakpilot]

And once again you putting words in other peoples mouth....

 

   

 

Cheers Dakpilot Staiger 

The question mark at the end of my post indicates a question of his interpretation, not putting words

 

How would you interpret Manus comment on Turbans last post then   ?

 

Up until the comment about "utter nonsense" this has been fairly civilised for an FW 190 thread

 

Saude! Dakpilot

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

The question mark at the end of my post indicates a question of his interpretation, not putting words

 

How would you interpret Manus comment on Turbans last post then   ?

 

Up until the comment about "utter nonsense" this has been fairly civilised for an FW 190 thread

 

Saude! Dakpilot

 

Otherwise it's all "The Kitten strikes back"

 

[Turban]

This may come as a surprise to you Turban, but you might have added a little to that misconception of people thinking that you claim it is all fine. I´m really sorry that you have been misunderstood for so long

 

Let me try to explain to you, where these people got that crazy idea from

 

"So far the stalling characteristic seemed completely fine. I was expecting a lot worst."

 

"Now regarding the plane's FM.. I think overall it's rather coherent. There isn't any obvious defect. It isn't "porked" by any mean. If I was to think about odd things, it wouldn't be the stall  Nothing to see there IMO. I don't even think about it when I fly. It rarely happens, when it does it's my fault, and it's not a death sentence. Of course if you screw it up at low level and don't do the right thing you'll die, but that's true of any plane.

What would be interesting to me is the energy management. How much energy it loses, retains, gains, etc. Again, no obvious problem. If you do everything right, you get proper results. So it is coherent."

 

 

"I think a "fact" that is always overlooked is that many people are not very good.

 

Too often they will blame the plane over themselves."

 

 

"The infamous stall happens what.. every 3 hours? And everytime I was greedy and/or sloppy. E.g, the target is getting out my line of sight so I pull hard to keep it."

 

"Show us a video of that stall so I can reproduce it without a doubt. Then we see how long it takes to get out. So we can make a conclusion whether or not this stall is so bad.."

 

"The FW 190 is absolutely not at fault. In a good team with good people... now that would be nice to see..."

 

"Even if the FW's FM wasn't 100% accurate , at least it's very coherent and the plane definitely isn't porked."

 

 

Guess who said it! :D

 

 

Well, guess what, I'll stand behind every single one of those statements.

 

The FM is very coherent, the stall isn't a big deal and was a known occurence anyway. And that stall isn't a death sentence unless you're really low, unlike what many people have claimed.

 

If I'm in a 190 doing a shallow climb at full emergency power with best climbing parameters but I always see russians catching up and outclimbing me by doing yoyos (shallow dive to gain speed then zoom climb gaining altitude and losing almost zero speed), then I will raise an eyebrow. But again I'm not sure it's the FW 190's fault there.

 

If people tell me they can't shoot a novice AI P40  and that it must be the FM's fault, again, I'll raise an eyebrow. Because obviously there is no question the pilot's abilities are more problematic than the FM.

 

If people come and say that the stall is a myth born in the USSR, I'll also raise an eyebrow, since it is not a myth at all.

 

If people tell me then can't frag in a turn and turn more furball, I'll also raise an eyebrow.

 

I've never claimed the FM was 100% accurate, I've claim that people assertions were definitely not.

 

It's great you provided data and you get credits for that,but  if you really look back at my posts you'll see that it's all I was asking for. Many people like to see themselves "on the right side" simply because they "claimed something was wrong, obviously", but claiming something is wrong is the easiest thing to do these days, nothing to brag about. 

 

In the end I think people like me did you all a favor by insisting to get some damn data rather than changing the FM to match people's feelings.

[Tomsk]

Personally I think people's feelings are actually quite useful. No you can't build a FM based on feelings, but they can sometimes tell you that something may not be right. That was what actually happened with the 190 it seems. Many people felt it wasn't right, this prompted people to go and get data, which eventually proved there was a mistake. Feelings and data working hand in hand

 

Back to the topic at hand: should people buy the 190? As you can see it seems to provoke quite a lot of controversy in the community ... it seems to do this in every flight sim community. Some love it and think it's the best thing ever. Some think it's totally overrated. Either way, it does suggest that it's one of the most iconic and interesting planes of WWII

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

-snip-

 

[Edited]

Edited January 7, 2017 by Bearcat

[curiousGamblerr]

To the topic at hand, I say YES, the 190 is worth it.

 

Evidence has suggested there are inaccuracies with the flight model, as admitted by the devs in their plans to adjust it when they develop the A5 later this year. So, it isn't perfect. But it sure as heck is still deadly when used correctly. And I find it very pleasant to fly.

 

I've always loved the 190 for it's history and mean look, and I am glad I bought it. It will only get better with the coming adjustments.

Edited January 6, 2017 by 19.GIAP//curiousGamblerr

[Turban]

Edit : Have a good evening   and enjoy the FW 190 is sweet 

Edited January 6, 2017 by Turban

[Cpt_Cool]

Turban's comments are far more accurate than people who claim that FW is broken/porked/nerfed/should out-turn yaks/unplayable/unflyable/deathtrap/worst plane in the game.

 

And I think that is the main point.

[Willy__]

 

 

Turban's comments are far more accurate than people who claim that FW is broken/porked/nerfed/should out-turn yaks/unplayable/unflyable/deathtrap/worst plane in the game.   And I think that is the main point.

 

... Nah

 

 

 

        

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Turban's comments are far more accurate than people who claim that FW is broken/porked/nerfed/should out-turn yaks/unplayable/unflyable/deathtrap/worst plane in the game.

 

And I think that is the main point.

Can't say I agree. His posts are just as much hardcore trolling as those guys. Calculating and just as far to the left as those Lufites are to the right. Most of the conversation without either extreme would have had the same result with less heartache. I could use less of both frankly.

 

Oh, yeah.........................190 still worth it.

Edited January 6, 2017 by II/JG17_HerrMurf

[Lusekofte]

If the real thing stalled like that the Luftwaffe would have lost most of their pilots to accidents rather than the enemy.

Remember - it was designed to be flown by 19 year old kids with only a few hours stick time.

 

Not far from truth, they did loose a fair share in accidents. In Norway over 50% of the losses was due to all sorts of accidents. Lost at sea, landing (many) Takeoff ( quite a few) and Engine trouble. And it was hard fighting in North front and west coast, and sorties over to England. I shall see if I can find the facts. And  I am sure many confirmed kills really was planes stalling out too. Not that I in any way say any FM here is historical

Edited January 6, 2017 by 216th_LuseKofte

[Lusekofte]

Turban's comments are far more accurate than people who claim that FW is broken/porked/nerfed/should out-turn yaks/unplayable/unflyable/deathtrap/worst plane in the game.

 

He contribute to a polarised debate where no grey zones exist, But in my point of view he is right , if you look at the possibilities there is much to desire in the FW 

Edited January 6, 2017 by 216th_LuseKofte

[Turban]

I think we can all just look forward to the FM reworked. It will be interesting.

[Yakdriver]

Guys...

Paradigm shift.
The question is a different one alltogether.

It isnt

"is the FW good enough for my Bling."

 

its more like
"am i skilled enough for the FW"

and at the risk of grossly over-generalising, i would say GET IT AND FIND OUT.
people spend more money on tobacco, hookers and booze every week than the 190 costs.

so get the Piece and give it an honest shot - some 5-10 hours flying time.
You got nothing to loose but some booze you can not pay for.
and some STD´s you might dodge.

just sayin'

[JtD]

Not far from truth, they did loose a fair share in accidents. In Norway over 50% of the losses was due to all sorts of accidents. Lost at sea, landing (many) Takeoff ( quite a few) and Engine trouble.

According to the USAAF statistical digest,

 

15.000 people and 14.000 aircraft were lost to flying accidents in the continental US between 1941 and 1945 (just as an intro to the following).

 

25.000 USAAF 1st line aircraft were lost over Europe, combat and accidents, 18.000 of those on combat missions, 14.000 of those attributed to AAA and enemy fighters.

Leaves near 4.000 losses to other causes on combat missions, 7.000 non-combat losses of first line aircraft. Add to that more than 2.000 second line aircraft.

10.000 USAAF 1st line aircraft were lost over the Pacific and Asia, combat and accidents, 4.000 of those on combat missions, 2.000 of those attributed to AAA and enemy fighters.

Leaves near 2.000 losses to other causes on combat missions, 6.000 non-combat losses of first line aircraft. Add to that more than 2.000 second line aircraft.

 

Assuming that all losses not further specified were non-combat and all fighter/AAA losses were due to combat, the USAAF ends up with 14.000 out of 39.000 lost to combat, and 25.000 lost to other causes.

 

Obviously, flying was a dangerous business back then, even when the enemy was not shooting at you. In fact, it still is today. True for the Fw190, and any other plane. No point in pointing the finger in the 'lol, look, a Fw190 stalled&crashed' way. That happened thousands of times back then, not just to the Fw190. And most often, someone died. Arguments like that are ignorant and irritating in many ways, even if they are "not far from truth".

[Turban]

 

people spend more money on tobacco, hookers and booze every week than the 190 costs.

just sayin'

 

Stop spying on me plz  

Edited January 6, 2017 by Turban

[StG2_Manfred]

Thats incredible, now the problem is those who criticize, not the wrong things that have been made and have not yet been resolved ...

Conitinuate to say that all is well and they will lose many more customers ... we will lose many players!

In our small group of friends flying together for over 10 years (not only ITAF), 15 people bought BoS, 4 or 5 the announcement of the project.

Then only 3 people bought BoM of which only one person the announcement of the new project.

Nobody has bought BoK, wait for the solution of some things.

We were 15 and now there are only 3 flying in IL2 (in recent days have added two new pilots)

I think this should be worth more than endless discussions if 4/5 of our small group leaves the Sim to play anything else.

Sometimes the criticism is harsh, they may seem unjust for those who work.

But I can guarantee they do much more damage who says that all is well and everything is perfect.

 

S! and sorry for my fluent English

 

 

What proofs you right is that none of the hardcore defenders provide a video where they demonstrate the fighter capabilities of the 190. All knowledge come from singleplayer or QMB

 

What you write about ITAF is similar to what Blitzpig_EL said about his squadron and in StG2 squadron there is almost the same situation.

 

I totally agree with you Cymao! Let's wait and see, now we've got Jason and soon we know more.

[Turban]

Arguments like that are ignorant and irritating in many ways, even if they are "not far from truth".

 

 

Do you think those arguments are as irritating as the fake track you produced claiming the FW had an unrecoverable spin?

 

 

It's funny, no one ever said anything to you but me, and you never took it like a man, but just disappeared from the thread.

 

You guys are a funny bunch !

 

What proofs you right is that none of the hardcore defenders provide a video where they demonstrate the fighter capabilities of the 190. All knowledge come from singleplayer or QMB

 

What you write about ITAF is similar to what Blitzpig_EL said about his squadron and in StG2 squadron there is almost the same situation.

 

I totally agree with you Cymao! Let's wait and see, now we've got Jason and soon we know more.

 

 

Maybe build yourself a reputation that gives you the creds to call people out 

 

Right now I just don't see why anyone would bother.

I'm looking forward to the FM change. If it comes as advertised, people will realise it doesn't change anything. They won't stall as much maybe but they'll get merced. Then they'll see they miss the point the whole time.

 

 

Edited January 6, 2017 by Turban

[Lusekofte]

What proofs you right is that none of the hardcore defenders provide a video where they demonstrate the fighter capabilities of the 190. All knowledge come from singleplayer or QMB

I have seen none hardcore defenders to the FM of FW 190 here , I personally reject to the fact that so many is so helpless that they claim in one

Edited January 6, 2017 by 216th_LuseKofte

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

-snip-

 

Then they'll see they miss the point the whole time.

 

-snip-

 

I think there is a large percentage of us hoping that you come to this conclusion yourself.

 

[Turban]

I think there is a large percentage of us hoping that you come to this conclusion yourself.

 

 

 

mk?