FW 190 worth it?

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

There are lots of valid complaints about the Fw. Dive characteristics are not one of them. The 190 dives better and handles at high speed better than anything in game. This is indisputable.

Sorry Murf, but I absolutely disagree with that. Dive characteristics is one of the BIGGEST flaws right now. You cannot out-dive a yak - and only marginnly an LA5 - in the current state of the FM in terms of dive acceleration (not max dive speed).

 

 

 

Exactly. I'm sure when it does get fixed, the same names will be crying about how it wasn't. If you can't handle it the way it is now then you'll still suck when it gets fixed. The people who actually use it now will be that much more effective when the fix comes but I think the majority of loudest complainers will not be satisfied.

 

Now that you cannot defend the FM anymore you go and attack the people that called for a fix - on a personal level - before the fix gets released by predicting their assumed behaviour? Really shows the basis of the argumentation on your side.

I don´t know what the (in your opinion) whiners will do, but I´m pretty sure you will be there to stop them from spreading their lies!

Edited January 5, 2017 by II/JG17_SchwarzeDreizehn

[Dakpilot]

People often forget about time and distance

 

Even If you have a 40kph speed advantage you are only extending by 11.1 M/S

 

In 45 seconds (how far/long is one diving and at what rate?) you have not cleared more than 500 Metres separation, add slightly different dive profile/more/less coordinated flight etc.etc, and it gets harder

 

My maths is crap so maybe someone who is good could check the figures , but the principles are important

 

fighter pilots spend some time in school looking at blackboards/whiteboards discussing things like this

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[unreasonable]

My maths is crap too, but good enough to agree with your number. 

 

I think that the diving away tactic is fine in a furball, where the red opponent is left with the choice of leaving you alone in order to deal with other blue aircraft that are still threats - since you are now no longer a threat - or following and potentially having another blue on his tail in turn.

 

Alternately where you do a slashing/head on attack from the front and then just keep going: the target has to turn 180 degrees or split-S to follow your dive, hence you have extra time to get clear.

 

Other than that it seems mostly just a desperate attempt to get into friendly territory to make bailing out less dangerous.....

[JtD]

According to Luftwaffe test centre Rechlin, the Fw190A-2 at Kampfleistung achieved about the same level speeds as the Bf109F-4. In a dive, it gained "several hundred meters at all altitudes" while diving 2000m at a 20% slope.

While we have a more powerful Fw190A-3 which would be faster than an A-2 both in level flight and in a dive, the results are completely different in game.

Edited January 5, 2017 by JtD

[RAY-EU]

What happens ? I have told Me 262 a2 was the most formidable fighter of WW2 ... ?

 

. I think we are triying to do the best for the writing letters of the Kings of the Orient 2017 for the FW190 A3 & A5 ... We hope no to be coal in the cilinders

Edited January 5, 2017 by RAY-EU

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Woooooh, hey stead-on WTF!!!  It's like I'm falling backwards into some crazy alternate universe where everything is all arse about face.  

 

Klaus, WTF bro??  What about your standard "crap-arse Jerry plane" argument??  What the hell be goin on dog??

I made a thread months ago about this. I get insults by both sides, so I guess that makes me unbiased in a way. 

6./ZG26_5tuka and I mad a comparison flight FW190 vs. Yak-1.127 and in a Drag Race there is no difference with 190 at 1.3, and it only gets seperation at 1.42. 

In a 400kph climb the Fw190 at 1.3ata couldn't get away, and was actually overtaken once we got above 2000m 

 

 

[Finkeren]

I know this is about the 190, but what's up with that Bf 109E7 falling like a ton of bricks!?!?

[unreasonable]

According to Luftwaffe test centre Rechlin, the Fw190A-2 at Kampfleistung achieved about the same level speeds as the Bf109F-4. In a dive, it gained "several hundred meters at all altitudes" while diving 2000m at a 20% slope.

While we have a more powerful Fw190A-3 which would be faster than an A-2 both in level flight and in a dive, the results are completely different in game.

 

That is still about a 30 second dive, depending on what speed it was done at (assuming 700kph) : if "several hundred metres" = about 500,  Dakpilot's point that it takes a while to get out of gun range is still valid, and hence the tactical implications are also valid, even if the 190 can extend at this rate relative to other planes. 

 

I am not saying that it can in game: I know I never got clear of chasing AI Yaks when playing Campaign mode -

 

Also I think that GAF pilots got away with diving away a lot in WW2 on the Eastern Front simply because for much of the time Soviet pilots were forbidden to chase them but had to stick to their assigned task.

[unreasonable]

I know this is about the 190, but what's up with that Bf 109E7 falling like a ton of bricks!?!?

 

The trouble with that test is that the dives were all done at different angles: the speed was held constant at 700 kph, not the angle of dive. (Pythagoras was a clever chap).

 

So the 109E7 number just shows that if you dive more steeply - which you have to in an E-7 compared to a 190 to achieve 700 kph - then your vertical descent is faster. The E-7 dive was at 16 degrees, the 190 at 9.9

[Finkeren]

The trouble with that test is that the dives were all done at different angles: the speed was held constant at 700 kph, not the angle of dive. (Pythagoras was a clever chap).

 

So the 109E7 number just shows that if you dive more steeply - which you have to in an E-7 compared to a 190 to achieve 700 kph - then your vertical descent is faster. The E-7 dive was at 16 degrees, the 190 at 9.9

 

So in reality, this chart tells us nothing?

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

Yes it does tell us a lot actually. Higher "time" and lower rate of sink mean better dive characteristics aerodynamically speaking. Still interesting that the Yak is aerodynamically that much better than the e7. I would really like to see how the Yak 1b performes in that match up! You don't own it by any chance Klaus, do you?

Edited January 5, 2017 by II/JG17_SchwarzeDreizehn

[unreasonable]

So in reality, this chart tells us nothing?

 

If it was reformatted and another column added it could tell you what dive angle you need to achieve 700kph in each plane, which might be easier to understand.

 

As for the  "better dive characteristics aerodynamically speaking" SchwaerzeDreizehn mentions, this is true but only for planes that have the same level top speed. A plane that can fly close to 700kph level must dive less steeply and have a lower sink rate in this test than one that has a top speed of 500kph because it has a comparatively weak engine, irrespective of the two planes aerodynamic qualities.

 

Personally I think from a piloting/tactics point of view, tests carried out at the same angle and measuring the speed/acceleration would be more instructive, but hard to do with our instrumentation I believe.

Edited January 5, 2017 by unreasonable

[Danziger]

Dunno if the shoe fits to me. Actually I don't care, I stand by my opinion. But your generalizing and stigmatizing (the whiners will always complain) is what sucks to me. The truth is imo the other way around. A couple of people continuosly try deny the obvious, even when it is proved to be wrong and furthermore disregard people which just address the subject. And the 190 FM is only one of those subjects. One could think they just fear to loose their pros, because it appears to me that they mostly fly planes of the opposite party (keyword redwhiners)

 

Now that you cannot defend the FM anymore you go and attack the people that called for a fix - on a personal level - before the fix gets released by predicting their assumed behaviour? Really shows the basis of the argumentation on your side.

I don´t know what the (in your opinion) whiners will do, but I´m pretty sure you will be there to stop them from spreading their lies!

I never called any names. You guys took offense and made it personal. I said the loudest whiners will not be satisfied. I promise you they won't just wait until the time comes and you will see. There will still be people posting childish angry rants about how it is still not correct. When people talk of Luftwhiners they aren't talking about people making legitimate complaints and providing helpful tests and information, they are talking about the crybabies who come on here posting useless garbage about how everything is all porked and nobody should buy it and it's unflyable and all of that BS.

 

Second, I never defended the old FM. I always defended the developer policy of FM complaints. If you can prove it then do it otherwise STFU. Same goes for other complaints regarding "nerfed cannons", "Stalin's flying tanks", etc. Posting useful information is useful. Going on an emotional rampage is useless. 

 

Third, I fly all of the planes available to me. I do not choose sides. 

 

Fourth, yes I hope I will be there to counter their lies. People have to. I almost didn't get into this game at all because of all the lies I read. Who knows how many customers 1c/777 loses to emotional Luftwhiner exaggerations. 

 

Fifth, I still stand by my opinion. Is the 190 FM correct? No it has been proven and will be fixed. Is it porked and nerfed and completely useless and unflyable as it is now? No. Just like any other aircraft, if you learn it's quirks you can be successful with it.

[JtD]

...Personally I think from a piloting/tactics point of view, tests carried out at the same angle and measuring the speed/acceleration would be more instructive...

I agree, it would be easier to understand, but you'd basically arrive at the same conclusions you can get from the sink rates / shortness of dive time. It's possible, but very unlikely that the worst->best order of the planes would be different than it is now.

[ZachariasX]

You guys really are a particular crowd when it comes to explaining why one should get the 190...

[Roo5ter]

So the question was simple and it has become a complex issue.

 

To address the OP, no it is not worth it to get the A3 on the information we have now.  The reason is not because the plane is too bad, too slow, too anything.   The reason is you BOK next to your name and the A5 should be much of the same but several improvements.

 

I do like the A3 and fly it as is with the intent of destroying Russian ground attackers but here are the two large Pros to getting the plane when the A5 is coming out:
1.  Some historical missions or mission makers might limit the A5 and getting the A3 will be the next best thing for Jabo and attacking bombers

2.  You need your FW 190 junkie fix and don't want to wait 2-3 months for it.

 

Hope this simplifies it a bit instead of the personal attacks, and over the top discussion that is taking place.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I believe Developer Diary #140 states the climb rate will remain the same.

 

 

 

The main performance characteristics - speed and climb rate - should remain the same.

Fair enough but with an improved AOA I wouldn't have expected that.

 

II/JG17_SchwarzeDreizehn

 

"Sorry Murf, but I absolutely disagree with that. Dive characteristics is one of the BIGGEST flaws right now. You cannot out-dive a yak - and only marginnly an LA5 - in the current state of the FM in terms of dive acceleration (not max dive speed)."

 

I was referring to speed not acceleration. I agree with your acceleration statement but stand by mine as written.

Edited January 5, 2017 by II/JG17_HerrMurf

[unreasonable]

You guys really are a particular crowd when it comes to explaining why one should get the 190...

 

We are traditionalists

 

Remember the Fw190 has a very low critical angle of attack, so it only needs a 190 thread to get a little away from straight and true for it to go spinning out of control....

[ITAF_Cymao]

Who knows how many customers 1c/777 loses to emotional Luftwhiner exaggerations.

Thats incredible, now the problem is those who criticize, not the wrong things that have been made and have not yet been resolved ...

Conitinuate to say that all is well and they will lose many more customers ... we will lose many players!

In our small group of friends flying together for over 10 years (not only ITAF), 15 people bought BoS, 4 or 5 the announcement of the project.

Then only 3 people bought BoM of which only one person the announcement of the new project.

Nobody has bought BoK, wait for the solution of some things.

We were 15 and now there are only 3 flying in IL2 (in recent days have added two new pilots)

I think this should be worth more than endless discussions if 4/5 of our small group leaves the Sim to play anything else.

Sometimes the criticism is harsh, they may seem unjust for those who work.

But I can guarantee they do much more damage who says that all is well and everything is perfect.

 

S! and sorry for my fluent English

Edited January 5, 2017 by ITAF_Cymao

[Dakpilot]

The only correct answer is how much does $9.99 mean to you right now, and what else could it buy YOU

 

with a 4K template and skins coming very soon it may be worth a couple of cups of coffee just to fly it around and enjoy that right now.. it does fly

 

In many countries and situations $9.99 is a not a big deal, or in others it could be a big part of the petrol you need to put in to go and buy food.

 

If the OP has a GTX1080 he is not saving for a new GRX card, and if recently bought a new Gladiator Pro, he is not saving for a new joystick

 

My advice to OP would be to buy it right NOW and support the Sim development ONLY if you FEEL it is heading in the right direction, the BoK A5 will be useable in less maps/instances

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Lusekofte]

 

 

I am telling the Me 262 A2 is the most formidable Fighter of WW2 .

 

Not being able to throttle up and accelerate when committed to landing was a deadly feature. Also the loss of speed while turning. Very slow acceleration and rubbish metal in the engines made it a terrible all round fighter. However the wing design revolutionised  aviation. The Jet engine was already there in US when this plane was in service. 

It was not at all formidable, but it was good at shooting down heavies once it had speed. The Arado Jet bomber was good too

 

 

You guys really are a particular crowd when it comes to explaining why one should get the 190...

 

When it comes to FW 190 it derails to this in a heartbeat  

[II/JG11_ATLAN_VR]

normaly i am calling myself an realist but some people call me an Pessimist. but i this case i am Optimist.

the devs promised to work on FM of the A3 when the work of the A5 is in full swing.

 

i believe this!

 

see what the devs under Jasons and hans Leadership have achieved till end of 2016 THEY CAN BE PROUD!

 

il2 sturmovik is growing and also the number of  pilots also when i observing the Servers and it was a good idea to open finally source Code of COD to open new theathres.

 

see you in the skies

Edited January 5, 2017 by II/JG11ATLAN

[StG2_Manfred]

I never called any names. You guys took offense and made it personal. I said the loudest whiners will not be satisfied. I promise you they won't just wait until the time comes and you will see. There will still be people posting childish angry rants about how it is still not correct. When people talk of Luftwhiners they aren't talking about people making legitimate complaints and providing helpful tests and information, they are talking about the crybabies who come on here posting useless garbage about how everything is all porked and nobody should buy it and it's unflyable and all of that BS.

 

Second, I never defended the old FM. I always defended the developer policy of FM complaints. If you can prove it then do it otherwise STFU. Same goes for other complaints regarding "nerfed cannons", "Stalin's flying tanks", etc. Posting useful information is useful. Going on an emotional rampage is useless. 

 

Third, I fly all of the planes available to me. I do not choose sides. 

 

Fourth, yes I hope I will be there to counter their lies. People have to. I almost didn't get into this game at all because of all the lies I read. Who knows how many customers 1c/777 loses to emotional Luftwhiner exaggerations. 

 

Fifth, I still stand by my opinion. Is the 190 FM correct? No it has been proven and will be fixed. Is it porked and nerfed and completely useless and unflyable as it is now? No. Just like any other aircraft, if you learn it's quirks you can be successful with it.

 

Well,

 

First, I agree with you that complaining all over the internet is not nice, counter productive and does not help our beloved hobby.

 

Second, I respect your opinion but I would appreciate if you could be less global and more specific in the future. People quickly take those general statements the wrong way and feel attacked.

 

Third, we are most probably on a good way, judging the development of the last months and also that this thread is still alive.

 

Fourth, the overhaul of the 190 is announced and additionally the general revision of the rudder, so FMs will definitely improve.

 

Fifth, maybe this helps to put some heat out of the debate (my own one included)

 

 

Cheers (as Dakpilot would say)

Manfred

[Roo5ter]

Thats incredible, now the problem is those who criticize, not the wrong things that have been made and have not yet been resolved ...

Conitinuate to say that all is well and they will lose many more customers ... we will lose many players!

In our small group of friends flying together for over 10 years (not only ITAF), 15 people bought BoS, 4 or 5 the announcement of the project.

Then only 3 people bought BoM of which only one person the announcement of the new project.

Nobody has bought BoK, wait for the solution of some things.

We were 15 and now there are only 3 flying in IL2 (in recent days have added two new pilots)

I think this should be worth more than endless discussions if 4/5 of our small group leaves the Sim to play anything else.

Sometimes the criticism is harsh, they may seem unjust for those who work.

But I can guarantee they do much more damage who says that all is well and everything is perfect.

 

S! and sorry for my fluent English

 

Honestly this is your loss.  There will ALWAYS be problems with the game, there will ALWAYS be problems with FMs and DMs.  They are always slightly changing and bugs are discovered or new information becomes available.

 

The 1CGS team has done amazing things with this sim and have garnered a lot of support helping to continue the Team Fusion project and North Africa campaign.  IL2 is where it's at when it comes to WW2 flight sims whether you guys want to buy in or not.  If you would rather play DCS and enjoy what it has to offer instead, be my guest and enjoy the damage models.

[150GCT_Veltro]

I have never liked it in Il2 (Original) was twitchy , and easy to stall.

Same in Warbirds and EAW.

 

I have seen all the complaints here too,but good thing is that it will be fixed.

 

Is it worth buying it?

 

Fixed or not, FW is not for all the pilots around here. A lot of us (not me) will prefer however the 109, as it was during WW2.

 

Now the FW price is very competitive $ 9,9, but really.......this bird has been brutally nerfed in this sim with the last patches/updates. It's very difficult for a lot of us to be positive and polite about this aircraft. It's not only a problem with its wrong stall behaviour but also with its missed diving acceleration and toughness. There is not really a way to separate yourself from the enemy because of sniping capabilities of the (overpowered) Russian weapons, and because of the poor diving acceleration itself. Secondary, but not less important, the FW is a glasses aircarft now with an insane % of "blow up" and "pilot killed". It's not exactly a "sturdy" aircraft as reported in the DLC Store..... It was, some updates ago, before the weapons and DM revolution.

 

Stall behaviour will be probably fixed but all the other problems (complains, feelings, emotions if you prefer), probably will not. In a few words: $ 9,9 is a good price for this FW? We are still here in spite of all......so, yes it worth it.

 

Incredible isn'it it? In spite of all we are still positive.

Edited January 5, 2017 by 150GCT_Veltro

[von_Tom]

It has its problems currently and there is no guarantee that any final FM revision will make it a true killer in all but the most proficient hands.  However, FM revisions moght make it more manageable for those who are not experten (and really as long as you stay fast and have company it can be very good even in its current state).

 

But, it's a mainstay aircraft for the LW.  Maybe not in a Stalingrad scenario but it is certainly prevalent on many servers.  And it's sexy as hell.

 

Yes it is worth it.

 

von Tom

[Willy__]

Fixed or not, FW is not for all the pilots around here. A lot of us (not me) will prefer however the 109, as it was during WW2.

 

Now the FW price is very competitive $ 9,9, but really.......this bird has been brutally nerfed in this sim with the last patches/updates. It's very difficult for a lot of us to be positive and polite about this aircraft. It's not only a problem with its wrong stall behaviour but also with its missed diving acceleration and toughness. There is not really a way to separate yourself from the enemy because of sniping capabilities of the (overpowered) Russian weapons, and because of the poor diving acceleration itself. Secondary, but not less important, the FW is a glasses aircarft now with an insane % of "blow up" and "pilot killed". It's not exactly a "sturdy" aircraft as reported in the DLC Store..... It was, some updates ago, before the weapons and DM revolution.

 

Stall behaviour will be probably fixed but all the other problems (complains, feelings, emotions if you prefer), probably will not. In a few words: $ 9,9 is a good price for this FW? We are still here in spite of all......so, yes it worth it.

 

Incredible isn'it it? In spite of all we are still positive.

 

+1 to Veltro words~!

[Art]

Fixed or not, FW is not for all the pilots around here. A lot of us (not me) will prefer however the 109, as it was during WW2.

 

 

Total nonsense!

Lw pilots prefer Fw 190!. Processing 109 should be terminated!.

190 dominate on the west  and east. But on the east was 80% pilots bombarders, 20% was fighters. Learn some history guys. And i will learn better english :D.

About tactics. They were two different pilots "muscles" or "brain". No matter what they were fly.

[Finkeren]

Total nonsense!

Lw pilots prefer Fw 190!. Processing 109 should be terminated!.

190 dominate on the west and east. But on the east was 80% pilots bombarders, 20% was fighters. Learn some history guys. And i will learn better english :D.

About tactics. They were two different pilots "muscles" or "brain". No matter what they were fly.

This is the wrong forum to tell people to "learn some history"...

[Turban]

The acceleration problem is much bigger than the stall problem IMO.

 

Fix the stall but ignore acceleration, and people will come back to say that the plane is porked.

 

I've tried to talk about the acceleration but all people would talk about was a stall I personally rarely experience . When that gets fixed it'll be fun to see people realise it wasn't the biggest problem.

 

And I'm not sure if it is the FW  that doesn't accelerate fast enough, or the competition that accelerates too fast and/or lose too little energy. The FW seems to produce huge amount of drag compare to other planes.

 

Anyway. 

Still. This plane is absolutely worth the buy. That was the initial question after all. My personnal experience is that I was sad I didn't get it earlier. It's hard to reach 100% efficiency in dogfights against top opponents,  BUT, at the end of the day it's a joy to fly. And it's supposed to get easier to fly. So.. yeah. Worth the buy.

[Willy__]

The acceleration problem is much bigger than the stall problem IMO.

 

- snip -

 

What happened to Turban ? Who are you ? The Turban we know would say that everything is fine with the 190     

 

 

 

 

Off course I'm joking, and I'm glad you changed your mind about my beloved FW 

 

Cheers

Dakpilot Staiger

Edited January 5, 2017 by JAGER_Staiger

[Turban]

The Turban we know would say that everything is fine with the 190     

 

 

 

No, that's just the category I was put in after not behaving hysterically and not yelling about how "porked" the FW was

 

And like I said, I'm not sure if it comes from the FW or the other planes.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Turban

[StG2_Manfred]

I throw out a 'Like' for Turban and 'Cheers Dakpilot' becoming are running gag There are signs and wonder

 

On a side note, yes Turban and Veltro you are right, I just didn't dare to.....

 

And Art, I had to smile, muscles and brain, exactly! Hartmannn didn't had muscles so he had to use his brain - nice contribution

 

 

Manfred

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

It's never been just a stall problem. It is also not just the stall getting fixed.

For 9.99 is it worth it? It's the 190, so hell yes!

 

I love how all the people that were defending the current 190 to the bone, are now just the people that didn't behave hysterically! Thank you for your efforts in keeping the 190 discussion down to earth and factual.

There were certainly some people going over the top with some accusations, but as a matter of fact many people claiming that these people were hysterical, should recall that they accused everyone - and I mean everyone, not just the over the top people - of being bad pilots, of flying the plane wrong etc. etc. etc. You guys were actually wrong, and the so called "hystericals" were closer to the truth than you in many instances. Stop trying to rectify whatever you think you need to rectify.

Edited January 5, 2017 by II/JG17_SchwarzeDreizehn

[Dr_Molem]

It is worth it because of this: https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/168-developer-diary/?p=412855

 

However, if you fly it in its current porked state and you get a bad time, just leave it aside until it gets reworked, don't force.

[II./JG77_Manu*]

To answer OP:

 

It depends.. if you wanna spend 10 or 20 bucks on Premium planes, i'd definitely take different aircraft (Macchi, La5)...just because the 190 at the current state is not really a 190, but rather a fantasy plane (not in looks, but in behavior). At the time it gets fixed, the A5 is getting out with Kuban as standard plane, so you'll have it any way when purchasing Kuban (just checked, you have it). Not too many difference between them, when the A5 is available that's always the aircraft to choose. 

I'd buy the A3 as very last premium plane from the current choices for that reason alone (+ all others bar the Yak1 don't have other versions of that very plane -->uniqueness). However if you own already everything apart the A3...go for it. There will surely be situations also after A5/Kuban release, where it has it's merrit. And it's really not that expensive

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I held my tongue on DD140 but there is some serious revisionism taking place with the way some are now presenting their previous positions and behavior.

[Gambit21]

This is the wrong forum to tell people to "learn some history"...

Yep

[StG2_Manfred]

I held my tongue on DD140 but there is some serious revisionism taking place with the way some are now presenting their previous positions and behavior.

 

Oh my god, what does that mean? Double rainbow all the way....?! ....triple rainbow??? Ohhhh, my god .... :lol: :lol:

 

Edited January 5, 2017 by StG2_Manfred

[Sunde]

It is worth it because of this: https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/168-developer-diary/?p=412855

 

However, if you fly it in its current porked state and you get a bad time, just leave it aside until it gets reworked, don't force.

Just gonna put it out there, people who currently can find NO success whatsoever in the 190 in its current state, will be disappointed if they think that the reworked model will be completely different. The 190 will still need a careful touch. It will probably just be slightly less likely to freak out the second you attempt a hard maneuver.