Ju52 poll

[InProgress]

Let's see,

and if yes then why?

Edited January 2, 2017 by InProgress

[FTC_Etherlight]

Just a few words, because I don't really understand why this is being asked exactly and want to provide some context for my "Yes" that I voted.

 

I assume that a Ju-52 that's flying around in a MP-environment does not do so for the fun of it, but to provide a way to support it's team and help to win, be it transporting troops, gear or whatever. Otherwise it's presence would be pointless at best, or a distraction and waste of serverslots at worst. In any case - yup, I'd shoot it down faster than you could say "God, this thing is slow.".

I also don't buy into the whole "War crime!" "No honor" "Civilians!!!" line, since this is not reality, but a video game - and considering how many factories/train stations/depots in cities we bomb to hell every day in this sim, I think we have probably killed the global civilian workforce about 10 times over. :D

[InProgress]

Just curious, and if most would say no then i would not take gunner and people would not shoot at me

I think this "War crime!" "No honor" "Civilians!!!" is actually good thing, having (or not) morals adds something, you want to be evil because guy you were chasing managed to drop bombs and then you shoot at his parachute because revenge. Or just spoting red cross plane and actually let him go because you feel like it.

 

Brown's damaged bomber was spotted by Germans on the ground, including Franz Stigler, who was refueling and rearming at an airfield. He soon took off in his Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-6 and quickly caught up with Brown's plane. Through the damaged bomber's airframe Stigler was able to see the injured and incapacitated crew. To the American pilot's surprise, Stigler did not open fire on the crippled bomber. Stigler recalled the words of one of his commanding officers from Jagdgeschwader 27, Gustav Rödel, during his time fighting in North Africa, “If I ever see or hear of you shooting at a man in a parachute, I will shoot you myself." Stigler later commented, "To me, it was just like they were in a parachute. I saw them and I couldn't shoot them down."

[Nil]

I assume that a Ju-52 that's flying around in a MP-environment does not do so for the fun of it

You have a very narrow vision of what is "fun", get an update!

[Y29.Layin_Scunion]

Here's an excerpt from some German pilots who were POWs.  Not knowing they were being secretly recorded by the British in the internment camp, they talk candidly.

It is March 6, 1943, and two German soldiers are talking about the war. Fighter pilot Budde and Corporal Bartels were captured by the British a few weeks earlier. The war is over for them, and it's time to share memories.

 

Budde: "I flew two spoiling attacks. In other words, we shelled buildings."

 

Bartels: "But not destructive attacks with a specific target, like what we did?"

 

Budde: "No, just spoiling attacks. We encountered some of the nicest targets, like mansions on a mountain. When you flew at them from below and fired into them, you could see the windows rattling and then the roof going up in the air. There was the time we hit Ashford. There was an event on the market square, crowds of people, speeches being given. We really sprayed them! That was fun!"

 

Two other pilots, Bäumer and Greim, also had their share of amusing experiences, which they described in a conversation with other soldiers. 

 

Bäumer: "We had a 2-centimeter gun installed on the front (of the aircraft). Then we flew down low over the streets, and when we saw cars coming from the other direction, we put on our headlights so that they would think another car was approaching them. Then we shot them with the gun. We had a lot of successes that way. It was great, and it was a lot of fun. We attacked trains and other stuff the same way."

 

Greim: "We once flew a low-altitude attack near Eastbourne . When we got there we saw a big castle where there was apparently a ball or something like that being held. In any case, there were lots of women in nice clothes and a band. We flew past the first time, but then we attacked and really stuck it to them. Now that, my dear friend, was a lot of fun."

With every Stigler out there....there were multiple others who were not at all merciful.  Point being that chivalry died with WWI.  The common theme, especially on the Eastern Front, was everything but kind or fair.

 

I would have no issues shooting down a Red Cross Ju-52 in a video game.  If some server had consequences to such, I can only see the Red Cross being completely abused by numerous people.  For that one guy who means no ill-will, there will be 3 others who do.

Source: http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/rape-murder-and-genocide-nazi-war-crimes-as-described-by-german-soldiers-a-755385.html

Edited January 2, 2017 by Y-29.Layin_Scunion

[javelina]

Brown's damaged bomber was spotted by Germans on the ground, including Franz Stigler, who was refueling and rearming at an airfield. He soon took off in his Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-6 and quickly caught up with Brown's plane. Through the damaged bomber's airframe Stigler was able to see the injured and incapacitated crew. To the American pilot's surprise, Stigler did not open fire on the crippled bomber. Stigler recalled the words of one of his commanding officers from Jagdgeschwader 27, Gustav Rödel, during his time fighting in North Africa, “If I ever see or hear of you shooting at a man in a parachute, I will shoot you myself." Stigler later commented, "To me, it was just like they were in a parachute. I saw them and I couldn't shoot them down."

An incredible story, and humane act.  I'd recommend anyone who has not read about Stigler to do so.  Amazing after the war, a lot of German's thought ill of this act (per the book).  But I guess you could understand from the perspective they were being bombed every day.  War is H*ll...

 

@InProgress - I adjusted your signature just a tad.  :-)

 

[FTC_Etherlight]

You have a very narrow vision of what is "fun", get an update!

 

Jesus Christ, context please. Of course people fly planes, because it's fun, but a good mission design obviously incorporates planes into the actual goals of the mission and therefore the planes have an explicit purpose in the dynamics of the game - which I used as a reason to why I would consider a Red-Cross JU a target. If the JU-52 does not serve any purpose in a mission you can just as well get rid of it, because having 1/4 or 1/3 of a team flying in circles, not contributing cause "lulz", that's simply bad mission design leading to an inherent imbalance.

Edited January 2, 2017 by JG4_Ether

[curiousGamblerr]

I voted "yes" because there is currently no server where Red Cross planes are acting as anything but combat transports. If there was a server/mission that included some sort of Red Cross evacuation element, however, I would not shoot it down.

 

For example, a Stalingrad pocket scenario where transport pilots could choose either an armed Ju-52 evacuating combat troops or an unarmed Red Cross Ju-52 carrying wounded. In that case, it would be fun and immersive as a Russian fighter to leave the Red Cross ones alone.

[InProgress]

Layin_Scunion

I wonder what that guy answered in first conversation.

Tho it's war and happens, russian are well know for raping women but my grandfather told me when they came to our city group of soldiers raped few girls, then they came to their officer with their mothers and told all about it. He gathered his men and they pointed at those who did this, he took his gun and shot them all, just like that. So yeaa, there are always good people.

[Asgar]

first of all, this question was asked already, you would know if you had used the search function. 

second, there is a poll section

[Blitzen]

Maybe yes...then again ...no...

[Sunde]

I must admit i dont [edited] about the skin, If that Ju52 is going somewhere to supply some airfield, i do not care about what skin it has, red or rainbow. If whatever action it might take, will be beneficial to my opponents, i will shoot it down. I am evil like that.    

If it is a special side mission (Med evac) that does not count towards a victory, then i see no reason to engage. 

Edited January 3, 2017 by SYN_Haashashin
Lenguage

[=WH=PangolinWranglin]

I'll put it this way: I ID by shape. By the time that can see the skin it will have been my second or third pass and that aircraft may not be doing well. At that point I would put them out of their misery. I've committed and they are not getting away. 

[No601_Swallow]

For what it's worth (not much obviously), I'd let the Ju52 go (and then get shot down while admiring the skin!). Personally, I like a bit of "role-playing". Same with damaged enemy aircraft on finals at an airfield (in our squadron, when we're mucking about in a DF session, putting your landing lights on means "Please don't shoot me. I'd like to try and land."

 

But everyone has different ideas of fun. I wouldn't be surprised or annoyed by people shooting down "ambulance" transports.

[Nil]

Jesus Christ, context please. Of course people fly planes, because it's fun, but a good mission design obviously incorporates planes into the actual goals of the mission and therefore the planes have an explicit purpose in the dynamics of the game - which I used as a reason to why I would consider a Red-Cross JU a target. If the JU-52 does not serve any purpose in a mission you can just as well get rid of it, because having 1/4 or 1/3 of a team flying in circles, not contributing cause "lulz", that's simply bad mission design leading to an inherent imbalance.

Sorry Ether, I did not understand that (my english or my fatigue)

Of course In each mission we must have objectives, for every airplanes.

Luckily, this is a transport airplane, so plenty of work for them if the mission is good enough

[Lusekofte]

There are no Red cross missions here, All enemy planes are legal targets. An with the seriousness going on (sarcasm) there will be people taking advantages with it. Shot it down. However if there where neutral JU  52 flying around and not gained any point for either of the teams I would let it go. As for now, a red cross JU 52 is just another plane performing a task to win the map against my team. We are obliged to shoot it down. If I was to do it in RL in WW2 , I hope I have the situational awareness to choose the right thing. Often Red Cross was misused, by both sides, this misuse is the biggest crime

[SvAF/F19_Tomten]

Hey guys, can you please not shoot me down while I have my Hartmann-skin on? You know, he survived the war and all. I'll still do the objectives my aircraft is made to do and so on.. but muh skin is plot armour!

Edited January 2, 2017 by SvAF/F19_Tomten

[InProgress]

I'll put it this way: I ID by shape. By the time that can see the skin it will have been my second or third pass and that aircraft may not be doing well. At that point I would put them out of their misery. I've committed and they are not getting away.

Actually I think it's impossible not to notice that's red cross, this is big plane with huge red crosses on it. If you are in range you will see it and it's also hard to shoot down so even if you will shoot a bit you would notice skin anyway. Tested that today with mig 3

 

Btw I would love to see med evac missions, it would be nice if red cross skins would be locked and available only for those missions (in multi)

 

I know some people will still shoot but actually I like it, more fun but also would be nice if some would not do it so you will get nervous and think if that guy will just follow you and try to see markings or going to shoot

[javelina]

Hey guys, can you please not shoot me down while I have my Hartmann-skin on? You know, he survived the war and all. I'll still do the objectives my aircraft is made to do and so on.. but muh skin is plot armour!

 

For you buddy, we make a special case...   Next time I only give you a 2 second burst, instead of my normal 3 second! 

[Yakdriver]

if its a random thing - shoot.
If the server offers medevac missions and red cross type missions in general then this  *might* just be a medevac flight. therefor observe for a moment... and let go if i deem appropriate. to be judged on an encounter-by encounter basis.
 

[LukeFF]

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

Just like in real life (if i knew shooting that hospital plane would effect the outcome of the war , Eg a general or something on board or lots of soldier who are going to be healed then return to fight.)

Much like Japanese Soldiers in WW2 using Suicide bombings with grenade booby traps to kills Medics and Priests as did the Chinese and North Koreans in Korean War

[InProgress]

What about that picture?

 

=r4t=Sshadow14

But there was something like Geneva convention, I don't think Japanese agreed to it so that's why but if you are talking about other countries then they did not (at least they shouldn't)

It all depends on country tho, in usa medics have guns and shoot, in mine they don't, they stay back and wait until it's over or they bring them someone.

 

Btw I think russia did not sign it either, but shooting down plane with wounded soldiers that half of them probably would not even be able to come back to fight is not going to change anything.

Edited January 3, 2017 by InProgress

[No601_Swallow]

What about that picture?

 

Straight out of the Ministry for Funny Walks. A seriously legitmate target!

[216th_Peterla]

I will shoot it down unless is specified in the mission briefing that I need to respect a medical evacuation aircraft.

Regards

[BlitzPig_EL]

It's a pixel plane in a pixel world being flown by some guy in his comfy house as a ruse to spot for his fighter flying buddies.

 

It goes down.

 

It's a game, there are no war crimes in games.

 

We have covered this ground many times over the past decade and a half of the IL2 series.

[Trooper117]

I like role play when I'm flying... would I shoot one down in real life, probably not. 

However, in game, if it has a rear gunner and he starts shooting at me then I'll blow it out of the sky no problem.

 

If in a mission briefing, I am told that it is believed that the enemy are using red cross aircraft to ferry troops and ammunition to the front, and it is left to us to decide whether or not to shoot them down, I guess I would destroy it if it was heading towards the front, and maybe not if it was heading away from the front... (role play, I would assume it may be taking casualties back to the rear area)...

[LukeFF]

 

 

What about that picture?

 

My point was that medevac Ju 52s were not always defenseless, unarmed flying targets, i.e., they expected to be shot at. 

[Rolling_Thunder]

Ah this old chestnut.

Yes I would.

[Roo5ter]

Why are people trying to correlate mercy on the Western front to how actions would take place on the Eastern front historically?  Two completely different mindsets and wars within the same war.

[Rolling_Thunder]

Does the red cross actions help the team score in mp? If it does it's a legitimate target. If it doesn't then it's not helping the team in any way and the German players should shoot them down. This is a game.

[=EXPEND=CG_Justin]

I would prefer to save my ammo for an actual threat. I don't fly Russian airplanes, but if we ever get a functional Li-2 I would not shoot down a hospital bird. Let the poor bastards have a chance to at least go home to their families.   If the injured on board are being airlifted from the combat zone, they are probably so injured they wont return and pose little to no threat to the war effort anymore. On the other hand, if the Li-2 were a troop or supply ship...I'm going to pummel it with 20mm....every...single...time.    

[Gambit21]

If the mood struck me I would straf a virtual school bus if it was on the opposing side - so I guess that answers that question where I'm concerned. In real life no.

[=EXPEND=CG_Justin]

If the mood struck me I would straf a virtual school bus if it was on the opposing side - so I guess that answers that question where I'm concerned. In real life no.

 

This made me lol....hard! I guess in a virtual world morality can be thrown out the window.

 

You win the internet for today Gambit!

[Feathered_IV]

If it was unarmed, no. I'd probably fly very close formation to them, then waggle my wings and depart without firing a shot. The other player would probably remember that for a long time.

[keeno]

Yes,

 

this is war! The people on board the medivac Ju52 may just have killed your family and when back to full health may return to kill more of your family. If they're dead, they can't come back.........simple! 

 

Cheers

[InProgress]

My point was that medevac Ju 52s were not always defenseless, unarmed flying targets, i.e., they expected to be shot at. 

Well, yeaa, better safe than sorry, tho even if there was a gun it would be more about who shoot first. I don't think they would unless they were attacked first.

 

Why are people trying to correlate mercy on the Western front to how actions would take place on the Eastern front historically?  Two completely different mindsets and wars within the same war.

What do you mean? There is red cross for a reason, just because it's russia does not mean 100% of them were attacked.

 

Does the red cross actions help the team score in mp? If it does it's a legitimate target. If it doesn't then it's not helping the team in any way and the German players should shoot them down. This is a game.

Why would germans shoot their own plane?And just because it's game does not mean you have to do everything that would make you win, oh no, he has no ammo let's kill him because he is useless..

There are no med missions (yet?) but even if there were does not mean you must shoot at it (because it's a game and you must win...), some people play for immersion and fun.

I am not saying that you can't do it, your choice but because it's a game does not mean you have to kill everyone and destroy everything because score.

 

I would prefer to save my ammo for an actual threat. I don't fly Russian airplanes, but if we ever get a functional Li-2 I would not shoot down a hospital bird. Let the poor bastards have a chance to at least go home to their families.   If the injured on board are being airlifted from the combat zone, they are probably so injured they wont return and pose little to no threat to the war effort anymore. On the other hand, if the Li-2 were a troop or supply ship...I'm going to pummel it with 20mm....every...single...time.    

Agree

 

If it was unarmed, no. I'd probably fly very close formation to them, then waggle my wings and depart without firing a shot. The other player would probably remember that for a long time.

That's great too I would love to see something like that, enemy flying wing to wing, maybe even escorting so others would not attack me :D tho i hope even if it was armed but did not shoot at you first you would not either.

 

Yes,

 

this is war! The people on board the medivac Ju52 may just have killed your family and when back to full health may return to kill more of your family. If they're dead, they can't come back.........simple! 

 

Cheers

I am not sure that's how it works