Eric Winkle Brown about the Battle of Britain

[Brano]

GAF is not a translation of a proper name or title - merely an acronym of a descriptive phrase. 

Yep,but I preffer when original names are used in books,with explanation "below the line" . It also looks more professional from author. For example LVI Panzerkorps would hurt my eyes when written as 56th Armored/tank Corps...  But thats me 

[unreasonable]

I don't think they thought it would be a 'picnic'. The difficulties and challenges were clear. Nonetheless the strategic situation demanded a resolution. And therefore the best plan had to be developed and implemented.

 

etc

 

I agree with all this. As to Adolf's intentions, it is worth remembering that he was an opportunist, so he would have been trying to keep his options open for as long as possible. After the fact, if things went his way, he would claim that had been his intention all along, etc. (I am sure many of us have had the dubious pleasure of working with or for people like that).  

 

Adolf did not know that air supremacy could not be achieved - the GAF staff told him it could, because their intelligence was lousy and that is what he wanted to hear, just as the Army staff told him that Barbarossa would knock the Soviets out before winter. Does that make Barbarossa a bluff too? Clearly not.

 

The fact is that the Germans - like everyone else - made errors in the war as they did not have accurate and timely information and misread enemy intentions and capabilities.  

[unreasonable]

Yep,but I preffer when original names are used in books,with explanation "below the line" . It also looks more professional from author. For example LVI Panzerkorps would hurt my eyes when written as 56th Armored/tank Corps...  But thats me 

 

 

LVI Panzerkorps is fine because this is a title - ie a proper name. "Luftwaffe" is, GAF is not. If you look up the list of NATO abbreviations you will find AF = air force, not Air Force.

 

I agree that original titles give more flavour to a text, but it is all about context; suppose you were reading about an army whose national language does not use the Latin alphabet; then even proper names have to be transliterated. Try Chinese or Thai with alien words and sounds that do not even exist in English; even once transliterated they may make no sense.

 

Anyway, the point is that GAF is an accepted abbreviation for those who find using foreign terms in an English text a bit precious.    

Edited December 16, 2016 by unreasonable

[DD_Crash]

With regards to the LW sinking the Home Fleet as it moved to intercept the invasion fleet, I am sure that I read that there wasnt a lot of heavy Armour piercing bombs and not that many torpedo capable bombers available at the time. The KM wasnt happy about facing the RN after the losses in the Norway campaign

[TheBlackPenguin]

With regards to the LW sinking the Home Fleet as it moved to intercept the invasion fleet, I am sure that I read that there wasnt a lot of heavy Armour piercing bombs and not that many torpedo capable bombers available at the time. The KM wasnt happy about facing the RN after the losses in the Norway campaign

 

Yes I have read this too, one thing to damage and sink lighter destroyers vs much heavier cruisers and battleships, these would have caused havoc among the canal barges which they intended to use for the crossing. That's not to mention Bomber Command also taking part (actually, Bomber Command is rarely given enough credit for this period of time during the Bob). 

 

I think the real crux is that the German military was significantly built around Blitzkrieg, and they never expected or envisioned France falling as quickly as she did as the nature of the conflict in the West changed to something Germany was ill equipped to deal with, against an enemy who at the time arguably had the best air defense in the world. I honestly don't think it was luck that Britain survived, that to me is also a myth...

[Holtzauge]

"Hitler say's Britain must win!"

 

Years ago I found this quote in a 1942 edition of Flight magazine (Apparently from chapter 12 in the book that cannot be named) which is rather surprising since taking it to its conclusion it pretty much conclusively shows that Hitler had no intention on taking on the Brits. Unless he changed his mind after writing that passage of course...........

 

 

[Wulf]

I don't think they thought it would be a 'picnic'. The difficulties and challenges were clear. Nonetheless the strategic situation demanded a resolution. And therefore the best plan had to be developed and implemented.

 

And I suspect it was and they did.  You mount a bombing campaign, threaten to follow it up with an invasion and demand surrender.  It worked in Holland why wouldn't it work in the UK?  But threatening an invasion and actually being in a position to carry one out are two entirely different things. 

 

how was it going to achieve air supremacy on the other side of the Channel? By defeating the RAF through sustained attrition and attacks on infrastructure. 

 

Well, I can only repeat what I have said previously, the Luftwaffe hadn't been able to establish air supremacy over Dunkirk so realistically, how do you imagine it was going to do so on the other side of the Channel?  This wasn't Poland or Holland (which in point of fact inflicted some very serious damage on the LW) this was the UK, with one of the largest if not the largest air force in the world at that time (despite the 'little engine that could' story that was put about subsequently)

 

And without air supremacy, how was it going to successfully cover an invasion force? Without air supremacy there wasn't going to be an invasion. It was a prerequisite.

 

Exactly (see previous point)

 

how was it 'also' going to eliminate the most powerful navy in the world? Provided air supremacy could be achieved the Luftwaffe would be uncontested and would use overwhelming aerial power to destroy any RN attempt to intercept an invasion fleet.

 

Have you had a look at what the Luftwaffe lost in it's campaigns in Poland, the Low Countries and France?  From memory it was around about 2000 aircraft of all types with something like 3000 air crew killed.  Now you want it to eliminate Fighter Command (on the other side of the Channel) and then destroy the RN.  What were you expecting it to do after the lunch break?

 

Do you actually imagine that the German military wasn't fully aware of the realities of attempting to mount an invasion in such circumstances? Of course they were. But the military's role is to implement the instructions of their political masters - no matter how challenging.

 

Hitler was a gambler but not a fool.

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

Personally I dont think there is a need to argue over invasion of Britain. I dont think Wehrmacht was capable of invading Britain (even as poorly defended as it was in 1940, when most experienced British [and Polish for that matter] and equipped units were lost in France). Why ? Well, it took YEARS for Allies to practice that and learn on their mistakes how to carry an effective combined operation. Landings in Africa, Italy or Dieppe raid taught them a lot and prepared for various problems such operations would create. 1941 invasion of Crete was a prime example of how combined landing operations may go badly (even though outcome was positive for Germans). 

The only experienced force at that time was Japanese Navy that carried since the outbreak of war in China over 100 pinpoint landings and that experience they have used in rapid conquest in 1941-1942 period. 

 

Isolation of Britain and neutralization of air opposition was best that Germans could achieve in my opinion.