The IL-2 Canopy Awesome

[[TWB]80hd]

I *get* what you're trying to do here, I just don't get why it only affects the IL-2....

 

 

Okay, so my elevator got mangled... my canopy is open... (as it *often* was, even in the Yakintosh, LaGG, etc....) and... lo and behold, every... single... time... my nose is down... I can't pull up... and I can't haul my canopy open and bail out?

 

Horrific.  10/10 for the mortality realization, that's good to go... but if you're going to do the depleted uranium cockpit weight on the goose, please do it on all the ganders.

 

Many thanks!

 

[Feathered_IV]

I think the real Il-2 canopy does not have an open lock, so it slides forward in a nose-down position.

[Finkeren]

The canopy being affected by gravity was introduced a few updates back. It's a great little feature but deadly on planes that can't blow off their canopy in an emergency.

 

Most fighters with a sliding canopy has a mechanism that locks it open, the IL-2 and (I think) the MiG-3 doesn't. But even so it still creates problems in an emergency. More than a handful of times I've been caught in a Yak or MiG nosediving towards the ground and being unable to open the canopy. I really like this feature, because it creates an incentive to fly with the canopy locked open or (in many cases) simply removing the sliding part of the canopy, as a great many VVS pilots did historically.

Edited December 13, 2016 by Finkeren

[[TWB]80hd]

Okay, here's the trick, I promise you that I can reach up and make that canopy slide backward.

 

Here's how this would work:

 

1.  You are nose down, and your elevator gets thunder pummeled. Your canopy is forward.

 

2.  Much like Cypress Hill, you are NOT going out this way.

 

3.  You reach up, you apply pressure directly the canopy in a primal SWEET-BABY-JESUS-THIS-PLANE-IS-A'FAR! kind of way

 

4.  You push backward, with all your might.  The wind catches the lip and helps, because physics.

 

5.  You jump out!  You're only 18 meters off the deck, so you splatter like a ripe pumpkin, but still, it was legit.

 

 

Right now, here's how it works:

 

1.  Canopy has slid forward.  You die on impact.  The End.

[Finkeren]

Actually, that is how it has worked for me on a number of occasions. I don't know if it's modeled that way or if it's just a fluke, but when bailing out in a nose-down position, the canopy takes several seconds longer to open, but it does evetually open.

[[TWB]80hd]

To make this clear, what I believe is that the fact we were massacring bad pilots wholesale in both the 42 and (omg) the amazing 41, they hamfisted this thing...

 

This was back when, regardless of the aircraft, you could stick your head out of the open cockpit in a billion-kilomile-windstream and glance around like no bigs... now you can't... once you get over a fairly mild speed, you can't lean your head out... great...

 

What has stayed around is the whole canopy sliding thing.... I am fine with it sliding back and forth, but when I hit the bail out button, it should be able to be slid backward, no question asked.  End of story...  Nothing is holding shut other than a development decision.  It's literally defying the same physics that rip off the 109 canopy.  There is no argument here.

Actually, that is how it has worked for me on a number of occasions. I don't know if it's modeled that way or if it's just a fluke, but when bailing out in a nose-down position, the canopy takes several seconds longer to open, but it does evetually open.

 

Perhaps it's a server-side setting? Because I have gotten hit, albeit low to the ground, and I hit the bail out sequence, and it does nothing. Tombstone.  Out.

Edited December 13, 2016 by [TWB]80hd

[Aap]

4.  You push backward, with all your might.  The wind catches the lip and helps, because physics.

 

If wind helped in that situation, the open canopy would not close in the first place. I know I wondered, why the canopy would close on me, when I was accelerating downwards. The first feeling was that if the plane was accelerating with engine power, the speed of a "loose" canopy should not be greater than the rest of your plane. So I guess the plane must be way more draggy than the canopy, so the force vector on the canopy (gravity-drag) is greater than the force on the plane, which makes the canopy close automatically. Now there is the question, are you strong enough to overcome that force difference to open the canopy.

Edited December 13, 2016 by II./JG77_Kemp

[Dakpilot]

Not to say the canopy is correct..

 

But has anyone considered how much it weighs? considering it is a heavy armoured structure + armoured glass, it will be rather heavy

 

most WWII aircraft such as P-40 with comparatively large canopy, or FW-190, had crank turn wheel method of opening/closing, the IL-2 is a bit more crude , was it purely opened by sliding by hand?

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[=38=Tatarenko]

I can help there ... the IL-2 canopy weighed 50 kg. Not that easy to slide open in a dive, esp one handed and esp for a 70kg pilot.

[Hoots]

This thread is a pure example of the inability to please all the people all the time.

[Feathered_IV]

I can help there ... the IL-2 canopy weighed 50 kg. Not that easy to slide open in a dive, esp one handed and esp for a 70kg pilot.

 

Wow. 

[7.GShAP/Silas]

Not to say the canopy is correct..

 

But has anyone considered how much it weighs? considering it is a heavy armoured structure + armoured glass, it will be rather heavy

 

most WWII aircraft such as P-40 with comparatively large canopy, or FW-190, had crank turn wheel method of opening/closing, the IL-2 is a bit more crude , was it purely opened by sliding by hand?

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

 

 

As Tatarenko has so helpfully specified, it was extremely heavy.  And yes, it was opened purely via sliding by hand.  I've spent enough time opening and closing armored vehicle doors and hatches, I can't imagine I'd be able to slide that canopy back while nose down and one handed.

 

 

Who would want to bail out? You'll just get ra-ta-tatted as you dangle in your chute. You're better off taking your chances in your burning coffin and hope you crash land into a cattle-pond.

 

 

In Vasily Emelianenko's memoir of the war, I don't think he mentions men bailing from the aircraft(IL-2) in combat conditions once.  Not only did they prefer to ride the aircraft in but were practically always hedgehopping and too low to bail anyway.

Edited December 13, 2016 by Silas

[Brano]

Bailing out of diving plane is not a good idea,even when you manage to open the canopy. The best way is to:
1. Realize early enough that you won't make it in one piece to home base = dont stay in combat for all costs
2. If low,try to squeeze the last speed you have to gain as much altitude as you can.
3. Roll the plane up side down and push the stick forward.
4. Negative G will kick you out of your seat
5. You fall down and plane climbs,so little risk of being hit by tail
6. All this happens while your plane is very slow,little air resistance when compared to jump at 500km/h.
7. Canopy on Il-2 will open itself
8. If you are not able to fulfill point 1 or it is not possible to execute points 2 and 3,at least die like a man :D

Edited December 13, 2016 by Brano

[=38=Tatarenko]

Normally (for me) the plane is in an uncontrollable dive because of severe damage to the tail. No chance to manoeuvre it at all.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

This thread is a pure example of the inability to please all the people all the time.

 

80hd is a nice guy and whatever criticism he is giving is also being supplied with a healthy dose of humor.

 

Much better than incessant 190 ***ching... Guess you can't really please all the people all of the time.

Edited December 13, 2016 by Space_Ghost

[Dakpilot]

80hd is a nice guy and whatever criticism he is giving is also being supplied with a healthy dose of humor.

 

Much better than incessant 190 ***ching... Guess you can't really please all the people all of the time.

 

I don't think his humour came accross enough for many to see it as that, but as you say, at least it is a new subject 

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Finkeren]

80hd is a nice guy and whatever criticism he is giving is also being supplied with a healthy dose of humor.

 

Much better than incessant 190 ***ching... Guess you can't really please all the people all of the time.

+1

 

80hd is a cool guy and his OP was not even a complaint as much as opening a topic for discussion (and one that hasn't already been beaten to death several times over)

[Brano]

Problem with ilyusha is that it has lock only for closed canopy.No way how to lock it when open. Btw is it only me or LaGG-3 and La-5 have no visible canopy lock at all? According technical description,at least for LaGG-3 with M-105P engines,the lock should be placed on top front frame of the canopy. To open the lock,pilot would pull the leather strip downwards and pull the canopy backwards,where the lever of the lock would catch behind "bronyespinka" /armor backseat.

It is hard to believe that they removed the lock completly for later LaGGs and La-5. New type of side lock was introduced with lowered canopy of later La-5F and with new La-5FN as far as I know.

[Roo5ter]

I'm happy with the mechanic.  As others have stated above, I can't imagine pushing that thing open in a downward nose dive.  It is clearly quite heavy even if you want to argue against the 50kg number.  Considering aircraft are made to be streamlined I am not sure how anyone believes the wind is supposed to help open the cockpit either, prove me wrong if you will because I am open to the idea.

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

[Dakpilot]

 

Cheers, Dakpilot

[LukeFF]

 

 

Btw is it only me or LaGG-3 and La-5 have no visible canopy lock at all?

 

It was a feature added with v2.001:

 

Cockpit canopy moves according to physics laws (it can close during dive on IL-2 or La-5 and LaGG-3, it may be impossible to open it at high speeds, etc.); 

[Brano]

It was a feature added with v2.001:

 

Cockpit canopy moves according to physics laws (it can close during dive on IL-2 or La-5 and LaGG-3, it may be impossible to open it at high speeds, etc.); 

I mean lock system itself = lever that was fitted on sliding part of the canopy on front upper frame from inside.In closed position,it hooked with the rear windshield frame.When opened (you pulled that leather strip) and slid back,it hooked into bulkhead Nr.5 where bronyiespinka was fitted.

 What you write is effect of real life issues with the lock = it didnt lock very well 

[Potenz]

Not to say the canopy is correct..

 

But has anyone considered how much it weighs? considering it is a heavy armoured structure + armoured glass, it will be rather heavy

 

most WWII aircraft such as P-40 with comparatively large canopy, or FW-190, had crank turn wheel method of opening/closing, the IL-2 is a bit more crude , was it purely opened by sliding by hand?

 

Cheers Dakpilot

does the 190 and 109 have an explosive charge to blow the canopy off.

 

im sure about the 109 but not so sure about the 190

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

does the 190 and 109 have an explosive charge to blow the canopy off.

 

im sure about the 109 but not so sure about the 190

 

Yeah, the 190 does - that's what the warning label behind the pilot's head is explaining.

[[TWB]80hd]

Okay, so I was dronk, and yeah I thought everyone knew that I am a jackass to not be taken seriously, but thanks, sorry, etc to all amused/offended/amusedly offended or whatever....

 

When I say dive, I don't mean 90 degree lawn dart, I just mean when you're nose down and you are shot up, you should be able to slide that canopy back... I have had it happen several times where I couldn't (control surfaces gone, can't roll, can't pull back, though a few times trim tab has saved me somehow - even with no elevator)...

 

As far as the 50kg windscreen vs 70kg pilot, maybe we can throw some wax on those rails?  Maybe make it an unlock?  VVS Canopy Wax?  (Plus, I'm a 100kg pilot.  Don't judge me, I'm big boned)

 

Or maybe we could wedge a rock in there?  Or like a stick or something?  Obviously an authentic stick that was actually used at Moscowgrad.

 

I'm sorry, if I was still drunk I would have better ideas.

 

But for real though, the thing actually didn't lock IRL?  Just slid around like a dead cat in the back of a Chevy long-bed?  

 

I seriously thought it was just another thing put in the game to irritate me... you got people shooting at you, go too fast and parts rip off... now this?  Triggered.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

-snip-

 

the thing actually didn't lock IRL?  Just slid around like a dead cat in the back of a Chevy long-bed?  

 

-snip-

 

[=38=Tatarenko]

 It is clearly quite heavy even if you want to argue against the 50kg number. 

 

That's the number the developers use in the game and state in the plane specifications ... I realise I'm the only one that reads them

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

But for real though, the thing actually didn't lock IRL? Just slid around like a dead cat in the back of a Chevy long-bed?

 

It didn't lock in the open position, but you can lock it when closed. Pretty wise design if you ask me: you can go down with the aircraft voluntarily by locking it, or screaming and trying to push it open. Rated 10/10 on Amazon.

 

The MiG-3 was a similar devil, lots of pilots died because of it and plenty of the lot who didn't die locked in asked the ground crew to remove that deathtrap despite the speed penalty. Then you have the unlucky people like Lieutenant Lukashevich. He was one of the first to discover this vice when he entered a spin, recovered too low and realised he couldn't open the cockpit when he tried to bail out, but he straightened the aircraft out in the end and landed. Most MiG-3s in his squadron had the hood removed after that, and many lives were spared. One jolly day a MiG-3 came back so beaten up that it was sent to the workshop in the rear. The lads over there, away from the front line and more bureaucratic than street-savvy folks at combat regiments, followed the factory settings to the T and put the hood back. The aircraft was sent back, and Lieutenant Lukashevich was immediately tasked with taking it for a spin to see if everything was in order. Lo' and behold, the aircraft suffered a mechanical failure, Lieutenant Lukashevich tried to bail out but the hood had been installed. Down he went fighting the aircraft and the hood, trying to recover up to the last minute, another victim of not the war but of bureaucracy.

 

The LaGG-3 and La-5 also had a reputation, and pilots started flying with the cockpit open by default. This made them feel safe, but it also took a speed penalty, and if you look at later manuals for the La-5 you will find a whole page dedicated to scolding pilots and instructing them to close the damn thing in combat otherwise you can't fight properly due to the speed penalty.

Edited December 13, 2016 by 55IAP_Lucas_From_Hell

[[TWB]80hd]

It didn't lock in the open position, but you can lock it when closed. Pretty wise design if you ask me: you can go down with the aircraft voluntarily by locking it, or screaming and trying to push it open. Rated 10/10 on Amazon.

 

The MiG-3 was a similar devil, lots of pilots died because of it and plenty of the lot who didn't die locked in asked the ground crew to remove that deathtrap despite the speed penalty. Then you have the unlucky people like Lieutenant Lukashevich. He was one of the first to discover this vice when he entered a spin, recovered too low and realised he couldn't open the cockpit when he tried to bail out, but he straightened the aircraft out in the end and landed. Most MiG-3s in his squadron had the hood removed after that, and many lives were spared. One jolly day a MiG-3 came back so beaten up that it was sent to the workshop in the rear. The lads over there, away from the front line and more bureaucratic than street-savvy folks at combat regiments, followed the factory settings to the T and put the hood back. The aircraft was sent back, and Lieutenant Lukashevich was immediately tasked with taking it for a spin to see if everything was in order. Lo' and behold, the aircraft suffered a mechanical failure, Lieutenant Lukashevich tried to bail out but the hood had been installed. Down he went fighting the aircraft and the hood, trying to recover up to the last minute, another victim of not the war but of bureaucracy.

 

The LaGG-3 and La-5 also had a reputation, and pilots started flying with the cockpit open by default. This made them feel safe, but it also took a speed penalty, and if you look at later manuals for the La-5 you will find a whole page dedicated to scolding pilots and instructing them to close the damn thing in combat otherwise you can't fight properly due to the speed penalty.

 

See, something good came from this thread after all!

 

Thanks for sharing this!

[=WH=PangolinWranglin]

I will say... having a canopy lock up in a dive is absolutely terrifying. Like having a canopy blowout in Elite: Dangerous. I had an experience  on WoL where I lit an He111 on fire but as I passed his nose, his 20mm gunner put a shot across my aircraft and ripped my wing and elevator off. Before I could react I was speeding towards the ground (at the time of the attack I was already moving at around 500-550 kmh) and couldn't rip the canopy off. Watching the ground spiral towards you at 700 kmh is not fun. 5/7 most immersive game.