Revenue Suggestion: Charge for personal skins

[=IRFC=SmokinHole]

Personal skins are great. 777 has been extremely generous in managing player skins over at Rise of Flight. Too generous IMO. The downloads got so out of hand and some of the submissions so ridiculous that many players, including myself, just got rid of personal and squadron skins entirely. For those that aren't familiar with RoF you could submit both personal and historic skins without limit. The submissions were ostensibly voted on before inclusion into the skin-pack. The result has been hundreds of skins at 5.7 MB apiece. The historic skins are great. As are some of the personal skins. But many are crap! (The worst being one I submitted for the Dr.1 [sorry]). So here is my suggestion. Allow unlimited Historical skins because their submissions really are a great community service. But only allow one free personal skin per airplane purchase. Any additional personal skins (if approved) come with a nominal fee to the submitting player. This benefits everyone: It helps the community by limiting the massive size of the skin packs. It helps 777 by providing another small revenue stream. And it helps skinners by moderating their addiction for creating psychedelic clown cars.

[Cybermat47]

WTF.

 

This won't benefit anyone! Charging for submitting skins? What about the guys who make skins for their squadron mates? 'Sorry, but I can't pay for your skin now, I just got fired and I need all the money for my six children.'

Edited November 29, 2013 by Cybermat47

[LastRightsXIII]

WOW!

[Jaws2002]

WTF.

 

X3

 

 

 

 

Go Leafs Go!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 29, 2013 by Jaws2002

[-MG-Cacti4-6]

While i cant get on board with charging for submitting skins, I can if it is downloaded. 

[Rjel]

This reminds me of the recent news article that the banking industry is considering charging a fee for deposited money. Historical skins are great. Great skinners are few. Those few who are great didn't get that way because of artistic restrictions. Certainly not because skinning was a pay to play proposition. 

[ThudThunder]

Why are you the way you are?.....

[Bearcat]

Personal skins are great. 777 has been extremely generous in managing player skins over at Rise of Flight. Too generous IMO. The downloads got so out of hand and some of the submissions so ridiculous that many players, including myself, just got rid of personal and squadron skins entirely. For those that aren't familiar with RoF you could submit both personal and historic skins without limit. The submissions were ostensibly voted on before inclusion into the skin-pack. The result has been hundreds of skins at 5.7 MB apiece. The historic skins are great. As are some of the personal skins. But many are crap! (The worst being one I submitted for the Dr.1 [sorry]). So here is my suggestion. Allow unlimited Historical skins because their submissions really are a great community service. But only allow one free personal skin per airplane purchase. Any additional personal skins (if approved) come with a nominal fee to the submitting player. This benefits everyone: It helps the community by limiting the massive size of the skin packs. It helps 777 by providing another small revenue stream. And it helps skinners by moderating their addiction for creating psychedelic clown cars.

 

That is one of the most ridiculous suggestions I have ever seen on any flight sim forum.. The best way to manage skins is the way it is done in IL2..  Short of that we will just have to see .. The WoP method was terrible so I surely hope that that is not the way this will be done .. and I doubt it.. Hopefully it will be some kind of cross between IL2 and RoF.

[=IRFC=SmokinHole]

If you are skinning for your squad then there would be no cost. Each plane would come with a free personal skin. So each member of the squad is covered regardless of who actually created the skin. But even those of you most violently opposed to this must agree that some personal skins in RoF were just...well...stupid. If you only get one then there is a better chance that you will put more care into the process. And honestly--why would that average player need more than one personal skin per plane? Do you really need to pull out the purple LaGG on Wednesday and the green one on Friday. And if you are one of those for whom a hanger of liveries for each plane type is important then paying a buck for the privilege shouldn't be such a controversy. Also, don't think that skin submissions are effort-free for the developer. Considerable labor goes into building the skin packs, beta testing skins, and moderating the skin submission thread.

[Bearcat]

Yes but if we could either just use skins or not that wouldn't be an issue. I guess it is another engine issue.. I don't know.. but all the reasosn for restricting skins that I have heard over the years IMO don't hold water.. a crappy pilot will become a lawn dart.. even when he sees it coming .. and a decent pilot would not want a victory obtained by some kind of unseen skin advantage..

[Jaws2002]

 But even those of you most violently opposed to this must agree that some personal skins in RoF were just...well...stupid.

 

 

Their skins, not yours. If you don't like it look the other way. Or better yet, remove it from your folder.

 

 

 

If you only get one then there is a better chance that you will put more care into the process.  And honestly--why would that average player need more than one personal skin per plane? Do you really need to pull out the purple LaGG on Wednesday and the green one on Friday.

 

Why would people need more than one set of clothes?   Again none of your business how many skins people want. It's a bloody game and if someone wants to have fun, flying around in a pink skin Tuesday and a blue one Friday, it's his choice, his game. Since you didn't pay for his game, you can't tell him "how to dress".  Do you go around every day and tell people that their clothes offend you?

 

 

 

And if you are one of those for whom a hanger of liveries for each plane type is important then paying a buck for the privilege shouldn't be such a controversy.

 

We already paid for the game once, then we pay for the hardware, bandwidth and other things so we can play it. If you want to pay more go play War Thunder. There they make you pay for every bolt.

 

 

 

 

Also, don't think that skin submissions are effort-free for the developer. Considerable labor goes into building the skin packs, beta testing skins, and moderating the skin submission thread.

 

That's why I think is not a good idea to even try to moderate it. We enjoyed twelve years of Il-2, with thousands of skins for each plane. No kittens were harmed, and it was trouble free for the developers. Why waste resources just because some party pooper feels offended.

 

 

God, did I get tired of all this people that get offended by every little thing this days.

Edited November 30, 2013 by Jaws2002

[SOLIDKREATE]

That is one of the most ridiculous suggestions I have ever seen on any flight sim forum.. The best way to manage skins is the way it is done in IL2..  Short of that we will just have to see .. The WoP method was terrible so I surely hope that that is not the way this will be done .. and I doubt it.. Hopefully it will be some kind of cross between IL2 and RoF.

 

+1 x infinity.

 

I'm sure the OP really meant that he doesn't want to see 'circus planes'. He should have just said that. On a serious note this game would surely die if that were ever implemented. Me a skinner, If I saw that being implemented, I'd never create a single thing. I can't deal with another War Thunder.

[=IRFC=SmokinHole]

I didn't start this thread so that I might complain about other people's skins.  I really liked the dedication that went into much that players created in RoF.  I benefited from that creative process as members of my squad made skins for me probably as insurance that I would never again make a skin myself .   Eventually, when personal skins became more of a nuisance than they were worth, I just erased the skin folder and started over by downloading historical skins only.  If IL2 uses a similar convention then I will do the same--Historical only.  I started this thread because, having once been tasked with beta testing skins, I know that there is some effort on the developer side.  Beta testing is very important because a personal skin can be used as a cheat.  The alpha layer can be changed in subtle ways to reduce visibility and markings can be used to create confusion about which country the plane belongs to.  Whether kittens are harmed or not, the developer must protect the multiplayer viability of the game or risk loosing an active element of its customer base.  Closely examining skin submissions is a small but important element of keeping it fair.  It seems to me that they have a right to extract revenue from that effort.  More revenue = A longer lifespan for the game.  That's a good thing.  Anyway, it was just a suggestion.  No need to get testy.

[LastRightsXIII]

" Anyway, it was just a suggestion"......

 

Then let it stay as such.

While i cant get on board with charging for submitting skins, I can if it is downloaded. 

 And another WOW!

This reminds me of the recent news article that the banking industry is considering charging a fee for deposited money. Historical skins are great. Great skinners are few. Those few who are great didn't get that way because of artistic restrictions. Certainly not because skinning was a pay to play proposition. 

Right on the money.

Edited November 30, 2013 by LastRights13

[Lusekofte]

What and why does this benefit anyone at all. Firstly this sim will not live long if the community cannot contribute on side of the developers. 

Skins must and should be a freeware, and the community itself should be the main producers of it. 

 

Look at IL 2 still alive and well, thanks to dedicated communities. Learn from it. And ok we have to pay for every plane update coming and this I can see it will probably make sure of a descant support in the future. But THIS NO F*ck NOOOOOO!!!

[-MG-Cacti4-6]

" Anyway, it was just a suggestion"......

 

Then let it stay as such.

 And another WOW!

Right on the money.

i dont understand what the issue would be for charging for skins to download. if we are talking about personalizning aircraft, particularly with skins that are not historically accurate, there is a decent source of untapped revnue there. I am not saying charge 5 bucks to download a skin...at most 1 buck.

[=IRFC=SmokinHole]

I sense a bit of confusion--maybe my own. My suggestion was not for 777 to sell or profit from the sale of other people's "art". Rather it was to extract revenue from players who wanted multiple skins of their own creation to be included in Stalingrad skin packs and allowed in "MODS OFF" servers. Maybe in order to fully understand the idea you have to be familiar with Rise of Flight. I have played IL2 a bunch over the years an it don't recall having ever seen any liveries that didn't appear plausible--at least in the heat of online combat. How would personal skins even get transmitted to other players in the IL2 realm without all players on the server using the same source for the database of skins? I played different servers, some using mods packaged through HSFS, others through UP, and of course there is the stock version kept alive by TD. How are all those thousands of skins standardized among online players and servers? I have to think that how things work with RoF (and likely Stalingrad) are completely different. Those who come at this solely from the perspective of their experiences with IL2 might not understand what I am talking about.

[=IRFC=SmokinHole]

In IL-2, skins were downloaded in-game if you didn't already have them installed. You could turn this feature on or off client-side.

This same system would, IMO, be the best solution to the 'problem'

That won't work for Rise of Flight (and presumably Stalingrad) because of the size of the file.

[JaMz]

Lol...Hilarious

[=IRFC=SmokinHole]

Each .dds file is 5,462 KB.  I want to be careful that I don't step across a line from proposing an idea to suggesting what is and what is not possible.  I said above that "this won't work" but I really don't know that to be true.  I don't even know if IL2v3 uses the same skinning process as RoF.  And as for limits to what can and cannot be done, I have seen these guys pull rabbits out of their hats many times.  No doubt they will do so again with Stalingrad.

Edited December 1, 2013 by SmokinHole

[usr]

This idea isn't as bad as people make it sound: if a custom skin is expected to go through some form of approvement process and get it into official distribution (making both 777 and all BoS customers pay for storage + bandwith, even if it's only a very, very small price in both cases) there might indeed be a certain handling fee. More skins are better than less skins only up to a certain point: nobody would really be happy to have to download terabyte upon terabyte of skins varying in a pixel or two, to give a radical example. Quality is as important as quantity.
 
But: in order to even get to the point where too many skins might start becoming a problem you first need hobby skinmakers who produce a certain quantity of skins and nobody would be willing to pay for their first, second or even tenth attempt at making a skin they would not be ashamed of. Thus, charging for skin distribution without adequate ways to use custom skins for free would effectively kill off a whole feature of the sim that is important to many players.
 
By adequate ways for free use i mean all three of:

• [1:] offline use, this is a no-brainer: local test runs are essential for the skinning process
• [2:] online use on servers with some form of mods=enable switch
• [3:] online use on servers where the server admin has personally approved the skin (e.g. squadron skin on the squadron's own server)

What would remain hidden behind the paywall is this last one:

• [4:] inclusion in updates so that the skin will be available on any server

Would many people give money for #4? Surely not more than e.g. for a colored scarf in RoF. Realistically, it could probably not really be considered a revenue stream, if it maybe pays for half a day of development cost over the whole lifetime of the game. But on the other hand, every half-a-day paid without resorting to pay-to-win features is a good thing in my book. Still the main benefit would be the "spam filter" effect of a handling fee that would protect the update packages from getting bogged down in a torrent of circus skins or irrelevant repetitions of the same skin with only minor variations.

 

If 777 were in a particularly generous mood they might even consider such a skin distribution fee entirely for the benefit of the "spam filter" effect and channel the money back to the community as price money for some form of skinmaker competition (which would be a good thing for the balance between quantity and quality in any scenario, with or without handling fee)

[LastRightsXIII]

Here is one.

Maybe even a small fee can be implemented for posting on this form?

Maybe you guys can come up with some kind of formula to make it work. Charge for so many characters that are used.

Maybe little $ depending on the topic.

Maybe even have to pay out depending on what your readers think, Oh and don't forget to charge per reply or maybe make it free if you agree with the OP

That's just a suggestion for a little more revenue and put a limit on certain thing's like THIS and THAT

S!

[Cybermat47]

Here is one.

Maybe even a small fee can be implemented for posting on this form?

Maybe you guys can come up with some kind of formula to make it work. Charge for so many characters that are used.

Maybe little $ depending on the topic.

Maybe even have to pay out depending on what your readers think, Oh and don't forget to charge per reply or maybe make it free if you agree with the OP

That's just a suggestion for a little more revenue and put a limit on certain thing's like THIS and THAT

S!

I absolutely agree. Some of the posts here a really bad. We should make people pay for them.

 

 

I also think we should make people pay for joining a virtual squadron. And of course, they should also pay every time they log into the game. Just more revenue!

[=IRFC=SmokinHole]

I am going to restate this simply and then go away so that the thread can live or die on its own:

 

Skins, in addition to being occasionally outrageous and eye-burning, can also be used as a cheat.  This can be done through the use of colors and layers that reduce the skin's visibility at a distance.  This can also be done through the use of colors and markings which make the plane either look like a different type, or look like it might belong to the opposing team.  (There is a potential client-side cheat too but I won't reveal that here.)  The only way to minimise the potential for cheating--and the only way to allow some control over the more "creative" submissions--is to moderate the submission process and to test the skins that make it through that process.  This ISN'T my idea.  This is how it works at Rise of Flight already.  So, we have a process that is a current reality and that inarguably requires a certain amount of labor to facilitate.  My suggestion is to monetize that.  Not because I like companies to take my money.  But because I like companies that I like to thrive so that I might continue to enjoy their products.

[FlatSpinMan]

Well, as Smokin' Hole said, it was just a suggestion, so don't flame him. Disagree if you want though.

 

Personally I really think they should open up the skinning system to encourage people to make a lot, and be able to download and install those they want. As said above, it takes time to create a good skinner, so practice is important.

 

Personally I'm against charging for usermade content. The volume of quality usermade content in IL2 helped make that game such a long-lived one. It'd be a shame to miss out on that.

[LastRightsXIII]

Well, as Smokin' Hole said, it was just a suggestion, so don't flame him. Disagree if you want though.

 

 

 

S!

[O_Smiladon]

Personally I really think they should open up the skinning system to encourage people to make a lot, and be able to download and install those they want. As said above, it takes time to create a good skinner, so practice is important.

 

The volume of quality usermade content in IL2 helped make that game such a long-lived one. It'd be a shame to miss out on that.

 

 

+ !0000000000  we should be able to make our own skins and to be put into game, maybe have a sub site where people can up load there skins for people to D/L if they like that skin..not like ROF were you have to D/L the whole pack.

 

You could also have the vote system so that skins that are voted for can then be uploaed for people to D/L

 

but I do feel not letting people to make there own skins a bit of a lark.

 

O_Smiladon

[Cybermat47]

+ !0000000000  we should be able to make our own skins and to be put into game, maybe have a sub site where people can up load there skins for people to D/L if they like that skin..not like ROF were you have to D/L the whole pack.

 

You could also have the vote system so that skins that are voted for can then be uploaed for people to D/L

 

but I do feel not letting people to make there own skins a bit of a lark.

 

O_Smiladon

No offense man, but you just unnecessarily resurrected a dead and done thread. I agree with you, but your post is unnecessary.

[O_Smiladon]

No offense man, but you just unnecessarily resurrected a dead and done thread. I agree with you, but your post is unnecessary.

 

No offense back at ya,  would not say unnecessary, I was just reading this dead and done thread and thourght i would comment as there was no other place to say this and i agreed with flatspin.

 

Did not think to start a new post on the subject ( Or should I )

 

O_Smiladon

[Cybermat47]

No offense back at ya,  would not say unnecessary, I was just reading this dead and done thread and thourght i would comment as there was no other place to say this and i agreed with flatspin.

 

Did not think to start a new post on the subject ( Or should I )

 

O_Smiladon

Well, I can't really argue with that

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I want to be paid for the time I used reading this thread.