After switching side, after 2 years as a red .... I must agree with some claim

[Trinkof]

Well the pe2 ...

 

I never realized how tough it was .... I had several in my visor, unloading all my 20mm ammos on it ... with 10-20% accuracy, aiming specifically at a wing ... and they never falled .... well almost never.

 

The damage model seems especially "strong" .... If you compare to the 88 or 110 DM, who fall apart quite quickly ... well it feels off. I am not sure, but I have somewhere in my head the fact that German needed 20-30 20mm hits to take down a b17... it seems more is needed for a peshka.

 

The gunner now... I was one the people saying to the guys complaing : you are doing it wrong .... well please accept my apologies ... I have been litteraly one shoted quite a number of time WHILE not being in the 6 of the peshka .... AND being something like 200-300 km/h fatser than my target .... Those gunners really need to be all promoted to hero of the soviet union

 

I do not claim there is a bias, and never did, but on a simple gameplay basis something could really use a look at. For the gunners, I guess the problem is for all AI gunner to be incredibly reactive .... but more noticeable on Pe2 because of the 12.7 caliber of the guns.

 

PS : I know I will be trashed by the guy I previously opposed on those topics ... and those who like me before, still claim everything is right Well I am ready ! But I really feel that topic need to be looked at IN A CONSTRUCTIVE WAY !

 

S!

Edited December 9, 2016 by LAL_Trinkof

[Sunde]

I agree, to me the PE-2 seems significantly harder to kill / be killed in, compared to the JU88 and BF110. If its realistic or not, i dont know.  

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

I know it's just a "feeling" but it is a "feeling" that a lot of us share - myself included.

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

It's not a feeling. It has some substance, although I do not agree that 88 is easy to bring down. He 111 is, but Ju 88 is quite robust. 

From my experience Pe-2 is robust and that in combination with Berezin used by gunner and high speed makes it much harder opponent to effectively bring down. 

[Danziger]

I honestly haven't found it any more difficult to bring down a Pe-2 in a 190 than it is to bring down a Ju-88 in a MiG.

 

The only real difference I feel is wasting more ammo trying to get my rounds on target due to the different performance of the guns and bullets. Also wing guns vs. nose guns with the different convergence angles.

 

Once I do get myself adjusted to gunnery in German planes I really don't find it any more difficult to bring down the Russian planes.

 

I sometimes load up the MiG-3 with 2x20mm in the nose and 2x12.7mm gun pods and many times I've had the same experience others report when fighting red planes. I've fired burst after burst into a 190 watching puffs of smoke and pieces of stuff falling off and he keeps going right on until I waste all my ammo on one plane. Then sometimes I get really lucky with a pk from a single short burst.

[JG13_opcode]

It's definitely a tough nut to crack, but even a lone 109 with the single 20mm and the liquid-cooled glass jaw can do it in a couple of passes. Definitely not easy, though.

[Y29.Layin_Scunion]

I think it has something to do with 20mm in general.

Fighter wise I fly the La-5 more than anything and I have peppered 109s with 4-5 hits and he just flies away with a fuel leak.  To no ending of his flight, he lands and is fine.

Anecdotal evidence is just that....anecdotal.

If someone thinks the MG151s are that bad, then test them in a controlled environment.  

Then test the ShVAK and see how they compare.

I fly both Germans and Soviets and, in my opinion, 20mm are borked across the board.

Definitely not as bad as some are making it out to be though.  I think a lot of these problems stem from ping issues more than anything.

[ShamrockOneFive]

I agree, to me the PE-2 seems significantly harder to kill / be killed in, compared to the JU88 and BF110. If its realistic or not, i dont know.  

 

It does seem hard to kill at times and then sometimes they go down in a single shot. I got a half second burst of 20mm fire off of a MC.202 last night and he lost control and crashed almost immediately. Sometimes they can take a beating but I sometimes think that its not as much as people think.

 

I know it's just a "feeling" but it is a "feeling" that a lot of us share - myself included.

 

Feelings are useful for establishing that something might be wrong. But if you stop there and keep relying on your feeling then its not very helpful.

 

Test your feeling and assumptions and see if they are correct or if they are wrong.

 

It's not a feeling. It has some substance, although I do not agree that 88 is easy to bring down. He 111 is, but Ju 88 is quite robust. 

From my experience Pe-2 is robust and that in combination with Berezin used by gunner and high speed makes it much harder opponent to effectively bring down. 

 

Its combat reputation was very good for those reasons for sure. A fast bomber with good defensive capability (especially compared to other Russian bombers like the SB series) and being fairly well built, made them difficult to bring down. Pe-2s had a fairly low loss rate. Especially for a combat aircraft on the Eastern Front.

 

Right now its still a feeling that many of us have. It only has substance when its tested.

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

I'd not say it that way. Pe-2 is fast and capable but a single hand operated machine gun is far from good defensive capability. It's about on a level of many single engine machines, its not bad and rightfully as you mention, better than SB-2 but still its a limited capability. I'm worried how with average gunner effectiveness will A-20 perform. It's also fast but also very well armed and should definitely be more robust. 

 

Well, I tested it couple of months ago using my favorite 23 mm VYa cannon - same mission in QB and same settings when comparing Junkers, Heinkel and Peshka ... the last one was hardest to bring by far. However it would be also necessary to find how exactly did Pe-2 respond to damage, how often would then return with what kind of damage, etc. And for that I had no time. 

[=WH=PangolinWranglin]

I'll chime in as a (personally considered half decent  ) pilot of the Pe-2. I do think that it is a tough nut to crack. When I am on target and running into the ground attack target of the hour and a 109 starts shooting at me, I generally will continue in and take out a decent chunk of the target. I have done this in MP on many occasions and succeeded. That doesn't mean I made it home but I did damage to the objective. I do think it is a bit to tanky. I feel like I shouldn't be able to pull a B-17 and keep flying on towards my target while waiting for my gunner to get rid of the pesky little mosquito of a fighter. Then again, I'm no history buff. I don't know how it actually was. I just know how it feels. 

[Danziger]

I also play offline sp only so ping and lag are not a factor for me.

[Dakpilot]

I'd not say it that way. Pe-2 is  fast and capable but a single hand operated machine gun is far from good defensive capability. It's about on a level of many single engine machines, its not bad and rightfully as you mention, better than SB-2 but still its a limited capability. I'm worried how with average gunner effectiveness will A-20 perform. It's also fast but also very well armed and should definitely be more robust. 

 

Well, I tested it couple of months ago using my favorite 23 mm VYa cannon - same mission in QB and same settings when comparing Junkers, Heinkel and Peshka ... the last one was hardest to bring by far. However it would be also necessary to find how exactly did Pe-2 respond to damage, how often would then return with what kind of damage, etc. And for that I had no time. 

 

Does the Pe-2 not have 2 rear .50 cal and one side 7.62 (3 crew) both guns having superior ballistics and RoF compared to many others, not saying everything is right but people sometimes forget that

 

I also have a feeling that I now survive more easily in Pe-2 than previous times, had not flown it for quite a few patches, but this can be for many reasons, repeatable tests are needed

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Edited December 10, 2016 by Dakpilot

[216th_Jordan]

In recent patches all the planes tail sections got a lot thougher IIRC this could have a big effect on this. Obviously there is something off, but it is probably a complex problem that is also connected to the relative HE inefficiency. I have so far not seen good replicable tests though. (Didn't look closely neither) What I found was that in some parts of plane where it does NOT intersect with another part it can take tremendeous damage and nothing happens (but systems around it get damaged due to blast). I could shoot a He111 5 times into the cockpit with the T-34 HE ammo and it was still intact, structure wise. (this happend on all other planes too if hit at the wrong spots)

[MadisonV44]

My feeling is that all the 2 engines bombers structure should be stronger in the game, just like the PE-2 (whatever the side they belong)

Bringing down a bomber with very few rounds is not realistic to me.

 

The Aces of the Aces gunners of the PE-2 is another story, hope this will be fixed someday

[Dakpilot]

The 'super ace' gunner immune to airsickness is an annoyance in very many instances

 

The Russian rear UB gun in IL-2 and 2 X in Pe-2 though IS very good compared to German MG15 and MG81

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/26453-cannon-demage-model/?p=417833

 

according to that table, 5 times as effective as MG17, not sure how to interpret that data really though or how accepted it is

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[wtornado]

Well the pe2 ...

 

I never realized how tough it was .... I had several in my visor, unloading all my 20mm ammos on it ... with 10-20% accuracy, aiming specifically at a wing ... and they never falled .... well almost never.

 

The damage model seems especially "strong" .... If you compare to the 88 or 110 DM, who fall apart quite quickly ... well it feels off. I am not sure, but I have somewhere in my head the fact that German needed 20-30 20mm hits to take down a b17... it seems more is needed for a peshka.

 

The gunner now... I was one the people saying to the guys complaing : you are doing it wrong .... well please accept my apologies ... I have been litteraly one shoted quite a number of time WHILE not being in the 6 of the peshka .... AND being something like 200-300 km/h fatser than my target .... Those gunners really need to be all promoted to hero of the soviet union

 

I do not claim there is a bias, and never did, but on a simple gameplay basis something could really use a look at. For the gunners, I guess the problem is for all AI gunner to be incredibly reactive .... but more noticeable on Pe2 because of the 12.7 caliber of the guns.

 

PS : I know I will be trashed by the guy I previously opposed on those topics ... and those who like me before, still claim everything is right Well I am ready ! But I really feel that topic need to be looked at IN A CONSTRUCTIVE WAY !

 

S!

I agree I have always flown all the aircraft I had in IL-2.

 

I don't fair much better in a HE-111.

 

My PE-2 is made out of titanium.

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

 

 

Does the Pe-2 not have 2 rear .50 cal and one side 7.62 (3 crew) both guns having superior ballistics and RoF compared to many others, not saying everything is right but people sometimes forget that

Ehh, it was so late that I guess I could have made myself more clear. What i meant was that what attacker is facing is a single machine gun at any time, since the one below the fuselage and one at the top do not cover any common area. Basically at most attacker faces only one of those.

 

 

 

Bringing down a bomber with very few rounds is not realistic to me.

Objectively speaking light bombers were flying coffins. Relatively fast, but fast enough to avoid interceptors. Lacking defensive firepower. Pe-2 is not a B-25, Ki-67 or similar, its qualities are in speed, ability to dive and versatility.  

[Danziger]

Wasn't the Pe-2 also supposed to have a fixed rear firing gun in the very tip of the tail? I forget was it controlled by the pilot or gunner.

[Dakpilot]

Ehh, it was so late that I guess I could have made myself more clear. What i meant was that what attacker is facing is a single machine gun at any time, since the one below the fuselage and one at the top do not cover any common area. Basically at most attacker faces only one of those.

 

 

 

Understand 

 

Many people DO however forget that Pe-2 can have two manned .50 cal UB's and will attack from rear in such a way that both guns can track and shoot them, although not necessarily at the same instance, then brake to the side and get hits from the 7.62 ShKas

 

It Can give the impression of being a bit 'uber' even more than reality with gunner aces

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

The Pe-2 is a High Speed Dive Bomber, so I guess the structure would have been strong accordingly. 

But anyways, I have never had my Wings Cut off by any enemy Fighter in any Bomber so far, except for Peshkas. The reasons I loose Bomber Aircraft normally are Fires, Engine Damage, Elevator Shot Off and Pilot Kills. 

The Wings very rarely fail on any of these. 

[Sgt_Joch]

Actually, I only picked up BoM recently and have been flying a lot of QB missions. Did many 109F2 vs AI PE fights. I find the PEs are relativily easy to take down, especially if you aim at the engines.

 

Regarding taking out bombers, one mistake a lot of players make is to plant themselves on the tail and pepper away (not saying anyone here does it ). That makes it easy for the gunners since there is zero deflection.

 

If you attack the way pilots usually did in RL, i.e. high speed pass at an angle, using deflection shooting and quickly rolling away, never staying more than a few seconds on target, the gunners will have a very hard time hitting you.

Edited December 10, 2016 by Sgt_Joch

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

This video shows bluntly difference between strength of Pe2 and Bf110.

 

[ShamrockOneFive]

This video shows bluntly difference between strength of Pe2 and Bf110.

 

 

Was that recorded before or after the Bf110 wing was strengthened?

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Was that recorded before or after the Bf110 wing was strengthened?

Long before. 

[ShamrockOneFive]

Long before. 

 

That's what I thought.

[Lusekofte]

Wasn't the Pe-2 also supposed to have a fixed rear firing gun in the very tip of the tail? I forget was it controlled by the pilot or gunner.

 

Never heard of it before, but the HE 111 did have it, scuba dived on one and saw it personally.

 

Personally I must bail out 50% of the times I get attacked when flying a PE 2, only 20 % of the times I manage to return after a committed attack . I have personally shot down 3 enemy fighters myself in the turret and 1 head on. 100% of the time pilots chat Sniper gunner. I think my AI gunners have damage a attacking plane about 50% of the attacks and only 10% of them have been credited me. I personally do not think it is anything wrong with the PE 2, but I think it is with the BF 110, it do loose wing in COD too, but not that easily as we have in this game. Like the PE 2, once one engine is damage it is a lame duck, witch in my pow is correct. So when attacking PE 2, aim for the engines, when you see black smoke on both , leave it. If I got two damage engines, I commit to turret and try hard to get a shot of the attacker. I know I will not return anyway those doing it to me are success ful 100% of the time. Be happy for the bombers you encounter. There are not that many of them

Edited December 10, 2016 by 216th_LuseKofte

[Wulf]

The 'super ace' gunner immune to airsickness is an annoyance in very many instances

 

The Russian rear UB gun in IL-2 and 2 X in Pe-2 though IS very good compared to German MG15 and MG81

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/26453-cannon-demage-model/?p=417833

 

according to that table, 5 times as effective as MG17, not sure how to interpret that data really though or how accepted it is

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

 

That may well be, but the whole notion of bomber defense is based on mutually supporting fire from the whole formation.  A single air gunner attempting to defend a lone aircraft against a high speed diving attack from a fighter would be doing extremely well to hit the E/A at all, let alone bring it down.   

[Dakpilot]

That may well be, but the whole notion of bomber defense is based on mutually supporting fire from the whole formation.  A single air gunner attempting to defend a lone aircraft against a high speed diving attack from a fighter would be doing extremely well to hit the E/A at all, let alone bring it down.   

 

Not disagreeing at all.

 

My only point is only that many people forget that Pe-2 has two manned .50 cal UB's covering the rear and side 7.62 ShKas, and they are very effective weapons compared to most other defensive guns people come up against in BoS

 

quite simply it is better defended than most aircraft and a lot do not take that into account

 

The rear gunner in IL-2 was taken fairly seriously by Luftwaffe pilots, this is well documented

 

Sniper gunners have been a bane in many flight sim and also can be irritating in BoS, to program a balance while also giving bombers some kind of survivability is obviously not that easy 

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Danziger]

I also am not chasing them down emptying my guns making sure everyone in the plane is dead or it falls to pieces. I aim for engines and when I see black smoke or fire I move on and let nature take it's course.

 

If I hang around trying to make my target explode, I'm a lot more likely to be taken out myself.

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

Was that recorded before or after the Bf110 wing was strengthened?

Ignore the 110, that was a LOT of flak hits the Peshka soaked up.

[ShamrockOneFive]

Ignore the 110, that was a LOT of flak hits the Peshka soaked up.

 

I guess I was getting hung up on the comparison but the comparison point has changed.

 

True that it did soak up quite a bit.

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

See, they can be shot down...

 

 

If only the bomb timer was a few seconds,

 

Another Mr X video

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

The question is - did he drop the ordinance to reduce drag, or just to overcome being too overweight to fly anymore after stealing kilograms of Luftwaffe ammunition?

[Monostripezebra]

you gotta be aware of the fact, that in BoS the aspect from where a plane is shot matters a lot. The pe2 can soak up widespread damage if shot at frombehind, but it is a few shells only if hit right in the side or from the front..  but from behind, the outer wings and tail assembly are also quite vulnerable. You only get those "adamantium Pe2" vids if you splash a lot over it from behind..... the directional aspect in BoS is also something that other planes do have, too.. for instance the E7, which can soak up a lot of frontal damage

 

If you know where to shoot, it´s over fairly quickly for unescorted pe2s without space to dive, and no wings-of-derpity-gaggle-of-109s-wasting-ammo vid should fool any pe2 pilot into thinking that his ride is not inferior to a skilled fighter pilot in a 109.

Edited December 11, 2016 by Monostripezebra

[Livai]

See, they can be shot down...

 

 

If only the bomb timer was a few seconds,

 

Another Mr X video

 

OMG, best aim ever.............  

Not sure why they need a lot ammo for a single plane? Wrong aim? Unlucky? Not sure why I need much less ammo to take down a single plane look my screenshots how much ammo I need for a single plane to compare the results from others just for fun because it is funny to see what can go wrong if.....................

 

[MadisonV44]

Is there something wrong with this video Superghostboy ? 109 aim and hit the target not enough to prove something ... ?

 

Anyway, thank you for the static demonstration but i'm afraid you won't convince anyone. Each thread has hi Mr. Ego : "Check this out guys, you don't know anything at aiming, look I can do it".  Real aiming is not being alone on a quick mission and firing at will on a poor PE-2 to demonstrate performance, between 2 pause stroke.

 

I would be more than happy if you could post online and live tracks instead ...

[ShamrockOneFive]

Best way to do it is to setup targets and start testing. I'm about halfway through an initial test and but it looks like the Pe-2 is somewhat more damage resistant from both MG151/20 and ShVAK than the He111H-6 is.

 

If some others want to do some testing too I'd love that.

 

Here's my methodology:

 

- 1 v 1 versus novice Pe-2 and He111H-6

- Using a Bf109G-2 or Yak-1B (really doesn't matter too much here - just pick a type with a single cannon of either MG151/20 or ShVAK type)

- Fire from 300-50m and count the number of hits

- Focus your fire on specific parts of the plane if you can (firing at wingtips is fairly useless)

 

My initial results to be posted later.

[Monostripezebra]

So, just for contrast, here is a typical one-burst damage, online TAW, that I just used to explain the engine fire dynamics:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXnqONwc1pc&feature=youtu.be

 

 

the same damage type, also online but with ejection:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YrnVCNuabk

[Livai]

Is there something wrong with this video Superghostboy ? 109 aim and hit the target not enough to prove something ... ?

 

Hit detection issues! Prove =BLW= Phoenix uncontrolled nose down crash to the ground and didn't exploded just watch from 14:36 to 14:44

Next Prove is: "From that many rounds that they put into this plane the horizontal stabilizer should break apart. No he didn't. Even there was no fire for example engine fire or fuel fire. Just nothing! Even the turret gunner don't die but after after a lot bullets and time he died finally!"

 

Anyway, thank you for the static demonstration but i'm afraid you won't convince anyone. Each thread has hi Mr. Ego : "Check this out guys, you don't know anything at aiming, look I can do it". Real aiming is not being alone on a quick mission and firing at will on a poor PE-2 to demonstrate performance, between 2 pause stroke.

The point is what my static screenshots clearly show is --> How many ammo it takes to take down the plane! I can repeat this everytime how many times I want it is everytime the same ammo that I need to take down the plane. If I need more ammo than my screenshots show then my aiming + convergence was really wrong set. How you aim need to go along with the convergence range. Some I say some convergence ranges are really ineffective even with deadly aiming!!!!!

 

I would be more than happy if you could post online and live tracks instead ...

If I open a youtube channel to post there live tracks you can be prepared to see something what you never ever expected. This is something what I can do really good. I think I will do this next time where I start to post here something!

[Danziger]

I don't see how videos of online multiplayer could be used to prove anything other than connection issues.

 

If you want a real test do it offline where it is 100% certain your rounds are hitting (provided you aim correctly).