What is your idea for Gunnery Testing ?

[Karost]

Next Friday you'll get the previously known LaGG-3 and Bf-109 F-4, but this time they will get their firepower back. We'll setup 7.62mm and 20mm weapons with historically adequate AR and HE rounds.[ =FB=LOFT ]

 

This is a good news 

 

for me I like to test 

- 20mm. Ballistic trajectory

- 20mm. Velocity Loss (ballistic coefficient)

which I still don't know how to test about this ... I feel lucky  found Aces High Guns and trajectory data for reference.

 

http://www.google.co.th/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=11&cad=rja&ved=0CC4QFjAAOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fhomepage.ntlworld.com%2Fklem%2FVac%2FInformation%2Fguns.xls&ei=R_mYUsejEoqtiAfK1IHgCA&usg=AFQjCNF1roMyh6gpPh9uswaSQxsJJL-akw&bvm=bv.57155469,d.aGc

 

other fun test is

- machine gun rate of file change when changing Hi-Low RPM.

 

Please share me your idea

 

 

 

[HagarTheHorrible]

[Rjel]

I'm not sure if the option will be available next week to test but I like to use  AI targets set up as friendlies to try out the guns in a new sim. To me, it's far easier to set up my gun convergence and figure out how the enemy A/C look in my gunsight at differing distances and attitudes when the plane flies straight and level. Once I learn that, then I can miss maneuvering targets and not wonder why other than knowing it was my poor aim.  

Edited November 29, 2013 by Rjel

[Dutch]

You pull the trigger, he dies. Nothing new there.

 

Or more likely, you pull the trigger and I die. It's not like it's a new idea old chum.

[=RvE=Windmills]

Mostly hoping for a deep DM. The damage I've seen from crashlanding seems pretty basic, hopefully guns have a lot more dynamic effects.

[-MG-Cacti4-6]

i dont know how in the world you would be able to test loss of velocity. The only thing i can think off is bullet drop. As some of you may know, when a round is fired out of a weapon system, it has an arc to it. As it loses its velo, the arc flattens out to come in line with the muzzle barrell, then continues on a downward angle. BUT I havent seen bullet drop modeled in this way in a sim visually, perhaps because of the velo. I mean they all have bullet drop modeled, but not the full travel of the round, and if they do its indiscernible until the round starts to drop. 

 

So i would say that BD would be a good way to check loss of velocity if you could accurately gauge distance to target

[Rjel]

i dont know how in the world you would be able to test loss of velocity. The only thing i can think off is bullet drop. As some of you may know, when a round is fired out of a weapon system, it has an arc to it. As it loses its velo, the arc flattens out to come in line with the muzzle barrell, then continues on a downward angle. BUT I havent seen bullet drop modeled in this way in a sim visually, perhaps because of the velo. I mean they all have bullet drop modeled, but not the full travel of the round, and if they do its indiscernible until the round starts to drop. 

 

So i would say that BD would be a good way to check loss of velocity if you could accurately gauge distance to target

No it doesn't. Certainly not a rifle or machine gun bullet. It's on a straight line out of the barrel. If it arcs, it is simply because of the line of sight. The second a bullet leaves the barrel, it slows hence the drop in trajectory.

[-MG-Cacti4-6]

rjel, sorry but you are very much wrong on that one. every single training excercise i have done, every single live fire operation i have done, and every single engagement i have been in as an infantryman has not only proved my point, but to validate it:

 

http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/attachments/ar15-m16/20158d1238567400-very-technical-m4-vs-m16-question-trajectory.jpg

 

http://www.chuckhawks.com/bullet_trajectory2.jpg

 

edit: more info:

 

http://mg-42.net/sight_adj.htm

 

so in short, every round fired flies upon a certain trajectory based on the velocity of the weapon as well as the caliber and weight of the bullet itself. the reason there is such a thing as maximum effective range is because thats the maximum distance that a round can fly while still doing damage to the target. at a certain point the round enters whats called free fall and while it doesnt lose its velocity completely and fall out of the sky, it falls at a much more pronounced angle

Edited November 30, 2013 by -MG-Cacti4-6

[Rjel]

Line drawings? Showing the muzzle pointing up and that doesn't contribute to the arc in your opinion? Sorry, but I don't find your posts valid in the least.

[-MG-Cacti4-6]

yes clearly you have far more knowledge than i do, forgive me. If you had actually bothered to pay attention to either of the three diagrams it would have shown a reference point of aim for hitting a 300m target while employing an m4 in the first diagram. the second is a bullet drop table for your avg hunting rifle, and the third is actually how to properly sight in an assualt riffle in this day and age in order to calculate for bullet drop....

[Marrond]

It would be lovely if we had plenty of ground and air enemy units that would respawn fast. I don't know what's AI development stage at this point so let's forget dogfights and let's introduce steadily flying planes that maybe turn here and there so we can train bullet drop, shooting range, guns settings, deflection shots, etc. etc.

 

It will be no use of guns in testing if there will be not enough targets to turn into swiss cheese.

[Dutch]

P.s. We have no guns until next week, so erm, maybe we'll find out next week. I for one, can hardly wait.....

 

(No love I think that the 'Egyptian cotton' paint is much nicer than the 'weathered concrete' paint. It'll look really nice in the hall.  I'm sure that the cats won't be worried about the environment changing so much Don't worry, it'll be OK'. .

[DD_Squawk]

Rjel, Cactai. I think you are both arguing the same point, but are at odds over semantics.

 

I.E.

 

Once fired, a bullet has no lift coefficient ( unless deformed, but I dont want to go there ), therefore the only forces acting on it are its initial velocity, gravity, and drag.

 

A bullet will travel upwards in an arc only if the muzzle is elevated above the horizon, if not, and it is fired horizontaly or on a downward angle, the bullet more accurately follows a decreasing radius curve until the point where the acceleration of gravity equals and then exceeds its horizontal velocity. Looked side on, both could be described as 'arcs' dependant on how technical you wanted to be.

[Rjel]

=69.GIAP=GRACH - Well put and to the point.

[Karost]

- 20mm. Ballistic trajectory  will make the gun solution not look like laser gun while chase target at speed + 500 km/h.

in IL2 old day I testing by use quick mission with 1 Aces AI  and  start with Head on shoot.

I set gun sigh hair cross above AI cockpit  about  1 - 2 meter high and I open fire  when icon range show .6 - .5  ( 600 - 500 meter )

and if I miss AI will break or  AI will open fire at me at icon  range about  .3  ( sorry if my memory is not correct ).

 

- 20mm. Velocity Loss (ballistic coefficient)  if very important for setting deflection shooting

long time ago I found this table but not remember website or owner name.

 

then I upgrade my Deflection shooting table  ( 1 unit = 9 meter [ fighter fuselage range])

 

 

with this table will have me 50% time of practices for the deflection shooting fun.  like this.:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh btw : 

- you see FW-190 gear down that is not a trick  I just taking off and have no time to close it 

- for a table calculation mission4today still keep all material for you all

http://mission4today.com/index.php?name=Knowledge_Base&op=show&kid=291

that is why I need test data 

[-MG-Cacti4-6]

=69.GIAP=GRACH - Well put and to the point.

yeah pretty much

[III/JG11_Tiger]

Mostly hoping for a deep DM. The damage I've seen from crashlanding seems pretty basic, hopefully guns have a lot more dynamic effects.

Id say there is a long way to go before the best of that is added, check out ROF (it's free for the basics)  if your worried, has as good a damage model as any sim I've played.

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 For me the gunnery testing is seeing if damage will afeect and how. For example shooting the LagG-3 or Bf109F radiator etc. Everything is not in place yet propably, but getting an idea of gunnery in general too. It will be interesting for sure.

[pixelshader]

I'm sure the ballistics will be realistic.

 

I want to see the visual effects. Will bullets kick up snow visible from 1km away? Will the mine shells make a fake looking orange explosion when fired into the runway? Will the tracers glow like crazy, like in rof? etc.

[Zoring]

I'll have to dig up that shooting guide I wrote all those years ago. We have very different approaches Karost, haha. Shooting is 100% instinct, mathmatics are meaningless to me in combat! 

[-MG-Cacti4-6]

I'll have to dig up that shooting guide I wrote all those years ago. We have very different approaches Karost, haha. Shooting is 100% instinct, mathmatics are meaningless to me in combat! 

i hate maths....and im a programmer lol

[Karost]

After I read  Russian forum and  I  learned that  Dev.Team and Russian community work very hard for gunnery modeling.

 

and I found data what I looking for ....

 

That you to Dev.Team

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/uploads/monthly_11_2013/post-12-0-89271100-1384335346.jpg

http://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/uploads/monthly_10_2013/post-297-0-21184600-1382853500.png

http://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/uploads/monthly_11_2013/post-12-0-70755500-1384893379.jpg

Edited December 4, 2013 by Karost

[FlatSpinMan]

It'd be handy to have a gunnery range set up on the ground. I know it'd not be used much after an initial period, but it'd really help us work out what goes on. Newer players would find it especially helpful.

[-MG-Cacti4-6]

After I read  Russian forum and  I  learned that  Dev.Team and Russian community work very hard for gunnery modeling.

 

and I found data what I looking for ....

 

That you to Dev.Team

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/uploads/monthly_11_2013/post-12-0-89271100-1384335346.jpg

http://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/uploads/monthly_10_2013/post-297-0-21184600-1382853500.png

http://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/uploads/monthly_11_2013/post-12-0-70755500-1384893379.jpg

this makes me VERY happy to see... i just wish i could read the language the cards are in...

[J4SCrisZeri]

Shooting is 100% instinct, mathmatics are meaningless to me in combat! 

Same here. In my case it's just that magic mix between instinct and noobness.

[401_TiGGer]

...... someone to sacrifice as a Tug & Tow ;-)

[ST_ami7b5]

I'll do the same I do in all CFSs as a first step:

1. take off

2. destroy everything at my home base.

 

[Karost]

Hi Scriszeri and Zoring  I respect your  idea for shoot skill is 100% instinct.

 

but for me it is more fun if I can use "math" to transfer my knowledge to my team mate which 2 of 10  become a master DF shooting which firs time they have same idea like you guys.

 

in flight sim like IL2 they use "Math" for programming gunnery modeling.

or event in modern fighter jet also use "Math" to programming in computer to help pilot to line the gun sigh.

 

you can see my team mate and me have a lot of fun for the old combat report  

http://www.thaiflight.com/mach/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=268680#268680

 

here is my DF shooting collection 

http://www.thaiflight.com/mach/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=269333#269333

 

oh btw just skip thai language.

Edited December 4, 2013 by Karost

[-MG-Cacti4-6]

I'll do the same I do in all CFSs as a first step:

1. take off

2. destroy everything at my home base.

 

note to self: 

 

dont take off at this guys base...or be within 100mi of it....ever 

[ST_ami7b5]

note to self: 

 

dont take off at this guys base...or be within 100mi of it....ever