How Much Do Developers Value A Forum Like This? And Why?

[MB_AVRO_UK]

Hi all,

 

(This is my first post here  ).

 

There is obviously 'a' value, but how much? There have been those who have asked if the forum critics of Cliffs of Dover were a negative as regards the game's survival. I'm all for objective criticism, but at what point and how can malicious comments be countered?

 

Best Regards,

MB_Avro

[Krupi]

They ban people in this forum, maybe that's the right way to go only time will tell... I don't think anybody wants a repeat of the banana forums here and have BoS ruined by a few bad apples.

 

Forums are good place to generate new ideas if the developer is listening, currently we don't know enough about BoS to really give any credible ideas. 

Edited December 20, 2012 by JG52Krupi

[wiseblood]

Do you think that kind of thing is being put up with so far?  I don't think 777 or the mods mind constructive criticism but there seems to be this streak of relentless, implacable bloo-bloo-blooing you get in the sim community, which they seem to be shutting down pretty fast.  You know what I mean -

 

 

[slm]

There have been those who have asked if the forum critics of Cliffs of Dover were a negative as regards the game's survival. I'm all for objective criticism, but at what point and how can malicious comments be countered?

 

Best Regards,

MB_Avro

 

They have made rules for this forum

http://forum.il2sturmovik.net/index.php?showtopic=3

[Krupi]

They have made rules for this forum

http://forum.il2sturmovik.net/index.php?showtopic=3

 

To be fair they had rules on the banana forum the problem was that the banned members just made a new ID and came back.

 

In fact one member (who I will not name) made several accounts and was caught arguing with himself   ... really creepy stuff.

[Bearcat]

Avro.. Good to see ya man.. ~!S!~

 

I think these forums can be a great help to developers.. but I think it hinges on how they are run. When you ave a place where people can engage in open and frank discussion and they are mature enough to agree to disagree instead of having to get that last word in ... it can be a great help. Believe it or not what drew me to UBI initially was the PL.. but even back then there were hats around. After the Gulf War broke out the place took a nose dive and eventually was shut down, but I think that every developer forum needs an OT room because you can't discuss sim and only sim all the time.. but that OT forum can't be an anything goes place or else it sets a bad tone for the whole site.. Likewise a page or thread  that is targeted to the devs communicating with the public doesn't need to be cluttered with multiple pages of banter back and forth between disagreeing forumites.. Believe me .. the degvs will skip right past that because they don't have the time to deal with that kind of stuff..

 

To answer Avro's comments.. The best way to counter malicious comments is to have an active moderator staff .. that avoids being sucked in to the madness and treats everyone the same.. even friends and squadmates.. I never had to an a squaddie because for one thing most of my squaddies don't carry themselves that way ..  and the many of them are just not forum hounds. The XO of my squad has been simming longer than me and he has been on a forum probably 5 times in all those years .. but he flies every day. The way to counter this kind of stuff is to be forceful and present and vigilant. But there will always be some who would rather argue than talk..

 

To be fair they had rules on the banana forum the problem was that the banned members just made a new ID and came back.

 

In fact one member (who I will not name) made several accounts and was caught arguing with himself   ... really creepy stuff.

 

Now see... That ain't right man!

 

But seriously .. that is that $hit stirrer mentality that some folks just have.. We have all seen it.. Some guys sole purpose on a given forum is to stir up controversy. We had guys at UBI.. and probably on 1C that didn't even fly the sim.. They didn't even own it..it wasn't on their PC.. They just had a thing for history and like to see what they wrote ,, but they knew little about the sim because they didn't even have it.

[LG1.Farber]

Hi all,

 

(This is my first post here  ).

 

There is obviously 'a' value, but how much? There have been those who have asked if the forum critics of Cliffs of Dover were a negative as regards the game's survival. I'm all for objective criticism, but at what point and how can malicious comments be countered?

 

Best Regards,

MB_Avro

Don't beat about the bush, clod was assassinated by the terrible forums and the users that perpetuated their campaign of hate.  Not to mention those "fans" that sat idle and dint help in the hour of need because they would not or could not upgrade their ancient rigs.  The world revolves around business and the brown stuff sticks...

 

Not what we need here.  Ive got my fingers crossed for this, early days yet.

 

I hope this does well but I really hope its a step forward not a step sideways and backwards! - After all the great name of combat flight simulations is flying high above the forum, that of IL2 not some washed up cash cow!

 

Great question, tight rope walk for the devs though! 

Edited December 20, 2012 by 5JG27Farber

[CrashMoses]

In addition to Bearcat's thoughtful suggestions I think the best way to counter malicious comments is to NOT try and counter them.  I can be a bit of a smart arse myself and sometimes people take things the wrong way but when someone is being deliberately inciteful the best thing to do is just turn around and fly away...so to speak.

[exhausted]

Good advice Crash.

[ShamrockOneFive]

Forums are a great place to exchange ideas and for a fan base to become a kind of self fulfilling and self advocating group. It's nearly free marketing. With a group such as this you can also count on the community to have access to rare and varied resources for possible research in areas that the developers have had difficulty finding. Someone always has some old book, log, website, etc. that no-one else has ever heard of.

[Bearcat]

Don't beat about the bush, clod was assassinated by the terrible forums and the users that perpetuated their campaign of hate.  Not to mention those "fans" that sat idle and dint help in the hour of need because they would not or could not upgrade their ancient rigs.  The world revolves around business and the brown stuff sticks...

 

Not what we need here.  Ive got my fingers crossed for this, early days yet.

 

I hope this does well but I really hope its a step forward not a step sideways and backwards! - After all the great name of combat flight simulations is flying high above the forum, that of IL2 not some washed up cash cow!

 

Great question, tight rope walk for the devs though! 

 

Lets just not go there at all.. That of course is debatable.. just not debatable here. Definitely not what we need here and if the team here has anything to say about it we won't have that here. I don't think it's a tightrope for the devs really ..  The devs don't have to deal with it .. the moderators do.

[machoo]

I ended up getting my IP address banned on the banana forum , no idea why either.  Either way , the mods over there had too big an ego and just banned anybody that had a differing opinion. This created the anger , and created more trolling. Think I got banned for mentioning that one too. TBH though , I see forums dying out , social media is much more important and damaging. You can mod all you like on a forum but on youtube , twitter ect it's all open slather. Only a tiny fraction of the community ever use forums and they will be the diehard fans so you will always have a biased view. COD forums only turned to crap once the game come out and ran like poo and looked worse.

 

Most people will get information from a game by typing in in youtube and watching a review or gameplay video , reading the comments and then deciding.

Edited December 21, 2012 by machoo

[Bearcat]

I think forums will remain viable because of moderation. Forums are not just about making your opinions know on line. They are also about community and that is something that YT will never be able to give you because it is too wide. On YT you can have several posts between your statement and a reply to the point where there is no continuity no sense of discussion.. but on forums it is more intimate.. more one on one or at least the possibilities of that exist. You can have 6 or 7 people in a thread and tye all are there.. I have made psots on YT and had the next 7 or 8 responses be to posts that were made 5 minutes ago.

[theOden]

Have a look at first post here [ http://forum.il2sturmovik.net/index.php?showtopic=249 ] to see how important we/forums are.

Edited December 21, 2012 by theOden

[mazex]

Well, a good friend of mine started a game studio (way larger than 777 or MG with 200+ employees) and ran it for many years... He's tried to recruit me a number of times and I sometime regret not joining the trip - but It's considered a privilege to work with games so wages are half and hours are double

 

We've have had quite a few discussions about the use of game forums like this as I like them to meet fellow flight sim nerds that I have very few IRL and initially he was very positive and they used it a lot for their first games. As they got bigger and more experienced the need for a forum dropped as they get so many resources in their own network of "advisors" so the need for ideas and market input from forums go down...

 

I remember one time when he was tired that he said "There are mostly the nut cases in the forums anyway - that don't represent the average gamer in any way... It's actually more interesting knowing what average Joe thinks about our ideas as we have 200 "game nerds" in house that have already done crazy brain storms with all the ideas that are discussed over and over again in the forums. They are at the very start of the scale of customers types that we already know - we need to know what makes customer #1.000.000 buy and like the game"...

 

But OK - they don't do technical sims where the need for "free" researchers exist that I think is a good use of these forums. Why not put more technical research questions in the forums? There are people here that knows more about a Bf 109 than Willy himself Why let an employee write a technical summary of the aircraft in the game? Why not ask the forum members if they want to participate writing a good manual? You get to join the beta and have to write a good chapter about starting and flying the 109 with references to historical documents in an appendix etc. Many here would do that for free to get the beta and their name in the credits - and no pay...

Edited December 21, 2012 by mazex

[falstaff]

As has been said, the devs need a good idea of summary points, they can't be expected to wade through everything to get the best or most practical ideas.

 

Part of this means that the mods also have to deal with 'backdoor' posting. Already we've seen a fair bit of 'Clod' discussion by other means.

 

JG52Krupi said:

 

They ban people in this forum, maybe that's the right way to go only time will tell... I don't think anybody wants a repeat of the banana forums here and have BoS ruined by a few bad apples.

 

They ban people in other forums, too. It is a small world, there are only 3 main forums.

 

People can be bad apples on one forum, according to the mods, and ok elsewhere. It depends on the forum, the members, the mods. They vary. Lots of opinions can co-exist if handled sensibly. If they're not, then things go to the wall.

 

SImilarly, if someone were to start a thread, for example, that BoS is only going to be War Thunder by another name, then it's a fair bet some of the readers here might see it. I think if some of us can hold off doing that, we stand a chance.

 

Forums are good place to generate new ideas if the developer is listening, currently we don't know enough about BoS to really give any credible ideas.

 

We know quite a lot. We know the theatre, the basic engine, the degree of fidelity expected, a fair part of the business model, the team doing it, the proposed time-scale for release, and quite a lot else.

 

And the devs will do better if they dont have to wade through the carry-over noise from before i.e. Clod.

Edited December 21, 2012 by falstaff

[AdlerAngriff]

I think a forum is a good idea. The simming community will never be as big as Assassins Creed or Skyrim and such. But flight sims as well as other sims require a special atmosphere to exchange opinions, knowledge, screenshots, files and such. The devs would have to have a big budget to have something like a social media teaser campaign. Because without any footage and things like that all you can have is a teaser.

 

The key in my opinion is to make a game that will generate positive reviews accross Amazon, Ebay, Gamespot, Ign, at some conventions and so on.

 

There's no way a Mass Effect type campaign would be profitable for this company.

 

I really like polls. As long as they are made accurately they can provide a lot of infor to the devs. I like the ROF polls. So when the New Year kicks in I am hoping to see a more active dev presence on the forum and a lovely cooperation to take place

 

In a nutshell.....yes.....communication is a key factor. Not the ONLY factor. But one of the key factors of a successful product. The narrower the customer segment......the greater potential of and need for communication

[Krupi]

As has been said, the devs need a good idea of summary points, they can't be expected to wade through everything to get the best or most practical ideas.

 

Part of this means that the mods also have to deal with 'backdoor' posting. Already we've seen a fair bit of 'Clod' discussion by other means.

 

JG52Krupi said:

 

 

They ban people in other forums, too. It is a small world, there are only 3 main forums.

 

People can be bad apples on one forum, according to the mods, and ok elsewhere. It depends on the forum, the members, the mods. They vary. Lots of opinions can co-exist if handled sensibly. If they're not, then things go to the wall.

 

SImilarly, if someone were to start a thread, for example, that BoS is only going to be War Thunder by another name, then it's a fair bet some of the readers here might see it. I think if some of us can hold off doing that, we stand a chance.

 

 

We know quite a lot. We know the theatre, the basic engine, the degree of fidelity expected, a fair part of the business model, the team doing it, the proposed time-scale for release, and quite a lot else.

 

And the devs will do better if they dont have to wade through the carry-over noise from before i.e. Clod.

 

Yes it would have been nice if everyone that moaned about COD had actually bought the game...  <_<

 

And where do we know that info, unless I missed the post we don't half of what you just mentioned 

[=IRFC=Jorri]

As I said in the other topic....the forums are not just mportant for feedback to the developers. The forums are where the community resides, and this community, made of diehard nerds and geeks, is a powerful tool.

 

They are the ones who build the missions, run the servers, help the newcomers with questions, make the acreenshots and the videos, share them with the rest of the world (Dont expect the devs to have money for actual advertisement), represent the product at public events, lay the connections with other communities or important people (warbird pilots, museums), etcetera etcetera.

 

So while their wishes for the game might not be representativemof the customer base, and they are a very small minority of the customers, their work is vital and without them the product would not be alive.

[Mac_Messer]

And the devs will do better if they dont have to wade through the carry-over noise from before i.e. Clod.

I strongly disagree. Good examples are needed and some of the features of the mentioned game should be promoted regardless of its ultimate fate.

[Bearcat]

As has been said, the devs need a good idea of summary points, they can't be expected to wade through everything to get the best or most practical ideas.

 

Part of this means that the mods also have to deal with 'backdoor' posting. Already we've seen a fair bit of 'Clod' discussion by other means.

 

JG52Krupi said:

 

 

They ban people in other forums, too. It is a small world, there are only 3 main forums.

 

People can be bad apples on one forum, according to the mods, and ok elsewhere. It depends on the forum, the members, the mods. They vary. Lots of opinions can co-exist if handled sensibly. If they're not, then things go to the wall.

 

SImilarly, if someone were to start a thread, for example, that BoS is only going to be War Thunder by another name, then it's a fair bet some of the readers here might see it. I think if some of us can hold off doing that, we stand a chance.

 

 

We know quite a lot. We know the theatre, the basic engine, the degree of fidelity expected, a fair part of the business model, the team doing it, the proposed time-scale for release, and quite a lot else.

 

And the devs will do better if they dont have to wade through the carry-over noise from before i.e. Clod.

KNOCK IT OFF.................. You too Krupi

[Revvin]

I'm sorry but your telling me to play nice, well I am just get a bit fed up when I see the hypocrisy of the banana forum whiners here.

 

BTW Thanks for confirming that you didn't have the game, couldn't give feedback on patches yet still moaned bitterly every single chance you got...

 

So your labelling the whole of JG52 for doing what? LOL grow up.

 

And your the one who came in this thread and mentioned me, no one else so please dont bring the banana forum mentality in here as well... see your hypocrisy again?

 

He wouldn't be the only one to find a few JG52 members seeming to revel in finding disappointment in information coming out about this game or some of the irony apparently passing some people by or you willingness to find offence at comments regarding CloD. Well I did buy CloD, I pre-ordered the collectors edition as soon as it was available to order. I was very disappointed by what was released, I'm still disappointed by it now but I didn't take part in the silly arguments on the old forums and I was disappointed to see the forums spiral into anarchy with the same few posters ruining the atmosphere there. Despite quietly reporting posts instead of feeding the arguments it was a shame to see those members being allowed to return again and again with the same combative attitude. I stopped visiting the forums in the end, dropping by only occasionally to check on development. I hope for more from this forum.

[Krupi]

Yes, us JG52 guys a bad bunch...   the fact is Falstaff was banned for trolling by a JG52 mod and is now trying to have a go at me as well...

 

And JG52 are not all "bad"...

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.net/index.php?showtopic=211&page=4&do=findComment&comment=4657

Edited December 21, 2012 by JG52Krupi

[Bearcat]

He wouldn't be the only one to find a few JG52 members seeming to revel in finding disappointment in information coming out about this game or some of the irony apparently passing some people by or you willingness to find offence at comments regarding CloD. Well I did buy CloD, I pre-ordered the collectors edition as soon as it was available to order. I was very disappointed by what was released, I'm still disappointed by it now but I didn't take part in the silly arguments on the old forums and I was disappointed to see the forums spiral into anarchy with the same few posters ruining the atmosphere there. Despite quietly reporting posts instead of feeding the arguments it was a shame to see those members being allowed to return again and again with the same combative attitude. I stopped visiting the forums in the end, dropping by only occasionally to check on development. I hope for more from this forum.

Well rest assured that won't happen here.. You can count on it..   

 

So lets get this thread back on track shall we...

[Krupi]

Bearcat please lock this thread.

[Bearcat]

No I will not lock this thread but I will ban some of the posters in it if they don't compose themselves. Two people have been warned.. and it is the only warning they will get on this matter. Let go .. or go.. the choice is theirs.

 

I told you .. I don't know about the yellowboard drama because I really didn't start going there till I got CoD to work on my upgraded system .. and really don't care.. Whatever it was take it back there. It will not flow here. Don't feed it and it wont grow.

[falstaff]

No need to lock the thread. We're adults, we can keep it civil (on here)

 

Apologies, the JG52 comment came off as more generalised than intended. No need for it anyway.

Edited December 21, 2012 by falstaff

[Bearcat]

Back on topic..

 

I think a sense of community is good and necessary for the success of something like this. I am certain that for a lot of people  a sense of community is  a draw in addition to a good product. When I came to IL2 in 02 I didn't know how to use photoshop or anything..  I never really paid attention to skins in CFS.. but with the way that IL2 handled skins and when I saw all those sig pics with custom skins I wanted one of my own and I also wanted to start the squad over here  but I had no clue how to do it and there were no YT tutorials back the. I saw a post by a guy named Painter and I sent him a PM telling him I wanted to start a Redtail squad and asking him if he would be willing to make me a Redtail skin. He asked me what planes I liked to fly and I told him Las & P-39s and I showed him a picture of a Redtail mustang.. He said he would see what he could do.. Well about a week later I got a PM pointing me to a link.. This man didn't just make me skins for the La5 & P-39.. He made me skins in olive and aluminum .. and he did it for each squad of the 332nd. So I had skins with the markings of all four 332nd squads in olive and aluminum .. for the P-39 and the La5. That's 16 skins... for a total stranger.. I had only been on the forum for about a week or two.. I was impressed and endeared to the IL2 community ever since. I haven't seen Painter in a while .. but that kind of kindness is something you cant get on anything but a forum ... that establishes a sense of community and comaraderie..

 

I hyave since learned how to use photoshop and many other things that I learned largely from being exposed to stuff through my simming and the community that I became a part of.

[Revvin]

Developers could do mail shots but there's no feedback. They could set up a site with a poll but how many of you fill those in? A forum does have some problems like nuisance posters but in the early days of development having a forum where potential customers can post feature requests or more importantly idea's surely outweigh's some of the problems of having a forum. Even the best developers may pick up an idea from a customer posting on their forum and running a forum really doesn't cost much in the grand scheme of things.

[79_vRAF_Friendly_flyer]

When I came to IL2 in 02 I didn't know how to use photoshop or anything..  I never really paid attention to skins in CFS.. but with the way that IL2 handled skins and when I saw all those sig pics with custom skins I wanted one of my own

 

I can largely thank the IL2 forum for my current proficiency in Photoshop too. It is a skill that I have had a lot of use for, not at least at work!

[310thWillyVic]

The value of a forum like this:

 

1. Can be instumental in producing a product that has mass appeal to flight simmers of all genres.

2. Allows end users and production crews a chance to communicate ideas.

3. Promotes comraderie among like minded gamers.

4. Keeps the project at the forefront of discussion.

 

Looking forward to the coming years.

WV  

[MB_AVRO_UK]

Hi all,

 

Would there be any value in having all posts 'vetted' by a mod before they appear on the forum? A harmful post could otherwise sit on a forum gathering carnage before it could be dealt with by a moderator.

 

This of course sounds like censorship, but in the real world we can't say anything we choose to say if it harms others.

 

Just a thought. And it's probably been considered before, I suspect...

 

Best Regards,

MB_Avro

[Walrus1]

Hi all,Would there be any value in having all posts 'vetted' by a mod before they appear on the forum? A harmful post could otherwise sit on a forum gathering carnage before it could be dealt with by a moderator.

That seems drastic and hard to implement.

 

All that is required is when someone is repeatedly behaving very badly in the forum, especially when they are intent on undermining and bringing down the whole enterprise, that they should be banned. Forever. No reinstatement in 2 weeks/30 days/2 months. And their obvious aliases that arise should be shut down quickly as well. No tolerance of highly destructive and toxic critiques of the game and its developers in the misguided support of 'free speech', because that does not apply on a forum like this.

Edited December 21, 2012 by Walrus1

[FlatSpinMan]

Given the volume of posts, per approval would be in feasible. A little self restraint goes a long way though. Anyway, Walrus has the essential thrust of it, I think.

[Bearcat]

That seems drastic and hard to implement.

 

All that is required is when someone is repeatedly behaving very badly in the forum, especially when they are intent on undermining and bringing down the whole enterprise, that they should be banned. Forever. No reinstatement in 2 weeks/30 days/2 months. And their obvious aliases that arise should be shut down quickly as well. No tolerance of highly destructive and toxic critiques of the game and its developers in the misguided support of 'free speech', because that does not apply on a forum like this.

 

 

Given the volume of posts, per approval would be in feasible. A little self restraint goes a long way though. Anyway, Walrus has the essential thrust of it, I think.

 

Yeah that would never work..

[Crump]

Just ban the guys that cannot keep a civil and intelligent conversation going.

[FlatSpinMan]

This is the plan.

Anyway, back on topic: What do developers etc etc?

[Rjel]

I like the idea of the polls but I'd prefer if the developers would do them to gain an idea what the consumer wants. Maybe not in the strictest sense but a general direction for future development.

 

I'm not sure the forums have the "star" power they once had. I agree with points Bearcat mentioned as his experiences. I had similar. But we are in a much broader world in regards to information sharing than we were when the original IL2 came out. I'd love to know how many people downloaded the first demo the day it hit the internet. And that was simple word of mouth. Imagine if it happened today with all the social media we have available now. Might be just enough to push KimK off the front page of my browser. PLEASE let that happen. 

[addman]

Short answer to OP's question, forums are valued to a certain degree but not as much as some here may think. Certainly not when the devs/publishers are making major, long-term decisions.