Cannon demage model

[II./JG77_Manu*]

My dear Manu* I am sorry I am obviously mistaken, every claim made about what was wrong with the FW 190 was correct, the Dev's were wrong on every single point

 

seems it must be quite easy to get an accurate FM just ask the viewers what they want 

 

I am sorry but Schwarze' comment was not accurate

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

Well the issues most people had were getting fixed, or are getting fixed now. So yes, the 190 FM was wrong in a lot of points, in different stages of it's development. But it's getting fixed now, so Kudos to the Devs. Most people were right in their claims, in contrary to the people defending current state, not looking at certain people in here 

 

Seriously , grow up,  you only make Luftwaffe and all aircraft fans look foolish, cloud legitimate argument and add to forum strife

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

[Edited]- including yourself - look foolish, with your constant defending of status quo, critizing people who make a true point, and afterwards playing as you agreed with them in the first place. 

 

There are no FM defense police.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Bearcat

[Dakpilot]

Well the issues most people had were getting fixed, or are getting fixed now. So yes, the 190 FM was wrong in a lot of points, in different stages of it's development. But it's getting fixed now, so Kudos to the Devs. Most people were right in their claims, in contrary to the people defending current state, not looking at certain people in here 

 

 

And you make the FM defence police - including yourself - look foolish, with your constant defending of status quo, critizing people who make a true point, and afterwards playing as you agreed with them in the first place. 

 

 

I'll just leave this page here to read as an example of how not to deal with FM discussions

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/21249-developer-diary-part-123-discussion/page-7

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[II./JG77_Manu*]

I'll just leave this page here to read as an example of how not to deal with FM discussions

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/21249-developer-diary-part-123-discussion/page-7

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

Funny thing that after this discussion, the climb rate was fixed.....

[LukeFF]

 

 

So yes, the 190 FM was wrong in a lot of points, in different stages of its development. But it's getting fixed now, so Kudos to the Devs. Most people were right in their claims

 

Let's see here:

1. False claim
2. Claim is not critical, but corrected already in updates
3. False claim
4. False claim
5. False claim (item 11)
6. False claim (item 12)

I don't claim to be a math major, but that doesn't look like a majority to me.  

[II./JG77_Manu*]

Let's see here:

1. False claim
2. Claim is not critical, but corrected already in updates
3. False claim
4. False claim
5. False claim (item 11)
6. False claim (item 12)

I don't claim to be a math major, but that doesn't look like a majority to me.

 

Funny thing, digging up some stuff from more then 2 years ago. And it isn't even up to date anymore, including answers. It's also by far not all about the 190. There are actually 2 false claims, the rest is right. However, no one made this claims the past 2 years.

 

Just look at the latest 190 threads, and you'll see that the vast majority was complaining about the wrong CLmax, or some effect this error caused. No need to downplay or ridicule all the people who made the right claims, only because you were wrong.

Edited December 6, 2016 by II./JG77_Manu*

[Dakpilot]

Funny thing, digging up some stuff from more then 2 years ago. And it isn't even up to date anymore, including answers. It's also by far not all about the 190. There are actually 2 false claims, the rest is right. However, no one made this claims the past 2 years.

 

Just look at the latest 190 threads, and you'll see that the vast majority was complaining about the wrong CLmax, or some effect this error caused. No need to downplay or ridicule all the people who made the right claims, only because you were wrong.

 

The only point that was contested, is that not EVERY claim was right, made by one person, who has already responded sensibly, without resorting to insults or ridicule

 

the discussion of that point made by Schwarze should have ended a page ago..but you do so like arguing and derailing a thread

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

No, sorry but don´t go back peddaling to details now. It was never the point, that EVERY comment ever stated in favor of the 190 is right. If that was your point, then it is so obviouse, that you didnt even have to make it. Be honest, the point you were trying to make, and the general tone you and some others struck is "here goes another whiner thread, like the 190 thread". Manu is right when he says that you are ridiculing all the people who made the right claims and continue to do so even after the matter has been settled.

 

Of course people exagerate things. The 20mm isn´t a potato launcher, the question that is really discussed here is, if it is modelled correctly or if it may underperform a little. The thing that some people compare this to the FW 190 discussion is actually quite ironic. I think these people are not interested in a discussion, but want to make this a pro/against luftwaffe thread, since these seem to be the terms that they think in.

Edited December 6, 2016 by II/JG17_SchwarzeDreizehn

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

-snip-

 

you do so like arguing and derailing a thread

 

-snip-

 

I'd say your participation in the recent arguing/derailment is becoming more common and certainly more evident.

 

Let's end it - all of us.

 

Cheers, Dakpilot.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Space_Ghost

[SvAF/F19_Tomten]

Looks like the "FW 190 FM is only feelings" crowd is derailing the thread.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

Dreary me....

 

 

[216th_Peterla]

Hi folks,

not a great pilot here but flying online mostly with IL2 I got shot down every time there are no escorts.

On FNBF, a propper and coordinated group of enemy fighters(x3 109's) can easily decimate a flight of 5 to 6 IL2's without escorts and some aircrafts with even turrets, so the weapons are effective to a certain point.

I'm not saying that your complaints about the effectiveness of the cannons/ammo are incorrect but the Soviet planes(even IL2's) got scalded most times I'm on board.

[Dakpilot]

I'd say your participation in the recent arguing/derailment is becoming more common and certainly more evident.

 

Let's end it - all of us.

 

Cheers, Dakpilot.

 

I would disagree, but you can't make a statement like that and then say lets end it "all of us"

 

When a thread starts with a claim that it takes 70 20mm mineshell hits to bring down a Russian aircraft it is not an unreasonable comment to suggest this could be the "new 190" topic

 

I only disagreed with the statement that all 190 claims were accurate

 

" If it were, all the claims would be justified. Is that what you are hinting at :D? "

 

The poster later then agreed:

 

"actually you are right. There are quite a lot of claims about the 190 that were wrong. Almost all of them were in support of the current state though"

 

which would have been fine with no derail

 

I am certainly not ridiculing anyone who made legitimate claims, let me make that absolutely clear, anything else is putting words in my mouth, something Manu does all the time

 

If something is said that is wrong  will comment on it, with or without your permission   

 

Now lets get back to legitimate subject of 20mm effectiveness without wild claims

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

Edited December 6, 2016 by Dakpilot

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

-snip-

 

If something is said that is wrong  will comment on it, with or without your permission   

-snip-

 

This is no less than sophomoric from somebody with your experience and of your age.

 

Nobody is stating any inference that you need anybody's permission for anything... But to point the finger at others for derailing a thread that you equally contributed to the derailment of is a little facetious.

 

And yes, it is up to all of us to knock it off with the constant derailment regardless of the origin in which the derailment started - mind you, I don't need your permission or grace to make that statement either.

 

Edited December 6, 2016 by Space_Ghost

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

I have no idea if the current German 20mms are correctly modeled or not.

 

I don´t know either, but my experience has been that, when shooting at german planes in general esp. HEs and Stukas (and yes I know they were more flimsy than their Russian counterpats, Im just not sure if the extent is correct), they tend to take engine damage a lot more likely than the Russian planes. This could also be due to different damage resistance modelling, which my track record in ff seems to confirm - i.e. I think that I tend to shoot down German planes with German guns a lot easier too. (I don´t know if this is historically accurate to the extent it is modelled, but it seems very pronounced to me)

Another thing I have noticed is that the AP (when I go for full AP loadout) rounds tend to do more damage than the HE rounds especially on the critical parts of the airplane. But like i said thats just my general impression and might be feelings only...

Edited December 6, 2016 by II/JG17_SchwarzeDreizehn

[Dakpilot]

Did any German aircraft have the same/similar inert gas system on fuel tanks such as used in IL-2 and which other Russian aircraft also featured this system?

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[KoN_]

Guys you know the truth just don`t play it until fixes are in place . 

[II./JG77_Manu*]

 

I am certainly not ridiculing anyone who made legitimate claims, let me make that absolutely clear, anything else is putting words in my mouth, something Manu does all the time

 

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

Come on, (even) you are better then that

[216th_Jordan]

flight sim forums   

[kendo]

Guys, do we have to go down the same route all over again? It's the same people here creating the same results. There may or may not be a real problem here. I don't know. But the lesson from the Fw experience is: produce conclusive evidence and it will get fixed.
 
EVERYTHING else is hot air.
 
As for talk about 'derailing' the thread. It was already 'derailed' from the first post which was not exactly subtle.:
 

i want to ask since i never really was interest in how good russian cannos were
but you shoot over 70 rounds of  Minengeschoß into plane and barely make his engine smoke
but you take ShVak shoot 3 rounds into german and boom his plane rips apart or take out his engine and elevator control
 
as i said i dont really know much about how much ShVak was reliable but i know 151 was not that some italian crap...
i really feel like im in warthunder when my german cannons just sparkle and when i take yak i rip everything in 1 shot....

 

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Did any German aircraft have the same/similar inert gas system on fuel tanks such as used in IL-2 and which other Russian aircraft also featured this system?

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

Out of curiosity, what purpose did it serve? Was it used for some type of self-sealing system? Fuel vapor venting?

Guys you know the truth just don`t play it until fixes are in place . 

 

 

This is taken from a 777/1CGS team meeting... You guys know the truth... It is out there! The MAN is hiding it from us! Don't play until they acknowledge UFOs!

 

 

(Is Han the one in the fancy hat..?)

Edited December 6, 2016 by Space_Ghost

[Dakpilot]

Out of curiosity, what purpose did it serve? Was it used for some type of self-sealing system? Fuel vapor venting?

 

 

In a fuel tank the air/fuel vapour can be an explosive mixture if the tank is not full

 

In IL-2 and other Russian aircraft a system of cooling and pumping inert exhaust gasses (Co2) into the fuel tanks wa used to make fuel tank inert and non explosive.

One downside was that it was (gas) corrosive to the fuel tanks, but not seen in a limited life combat aircraft as a serious issue

 

In game you can see it visually modelled on fuel tank behind pilot

 

A different inert gas system was used on early F4 Corsair models but I believe deleted due to weight issues

 

Chers Dakpilot

[Danziger]

MiG-3 uses this system as well.

[novicebutdeadly]

 

 

 

May I ask where you got that from as it does not seem plausible to me. (Happy to learn something new though)

Commonly thinner walls will have less resistance and burst earlier than thicker walls thus resulting in lower velocity for thin wall fragments. 

 

If both shells were constructed using the same method, using the same materials then the one with the thinner side walls would require less resistance (so you would be correct), 

 

but the mine shell was constructed differently using different materials (Minengeschoss used high quality steel), which is why they managed to have more explosive filler (the type of explosive also needs to be taken into consideration to determine energy at detonation).

If the thicker sidewall of the Russian shells required more force, combined with the lower amount of explosive would lead to less damage (Reminds me of the many threads I read about battleships shells though that topic was in regards to AP rounds),

 

The German shell would have less fragments (due to less material making up the shell) but much higher energy (18.6 grams of explosive v's 6.2-6.7 grams), whereas the Russian 20mm should have more fragments at lower energy (I haven't had too much time to read up on the studies of the Russian 23mm other than it's muzzle velocity and explosive filler which is 12-15 grams).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Wulf]

 

One downside was that it was (gas) corrosive to the fuel tanks, but not seen in a limited life combat aircraft as a serious issue

 

 

Chers Dakpilot

 

 

OMG, I wonder if they ever field tested that little euphemism on the aircrews.

 

" Well men, initially we shared your concerns about the gas corroding the fuel tanks but as these are 'limited life combat aircraft', we now feel entirely relaxed."

 

Hahaha... bloody hell.

[7.GShAP/Silas]

I've flown everything in the sim, but spend most of my time in the IL-2.  They're tough aircraft, tough enough that it can be hard to go back to anything else, but there's about a 40% chance that any 109 or 190 will kill you on his first pass if he connects.  You'll hear a bang, the control rods will be severed and you'll nose in and die.  In a group of 4 and an escort of 1-2, if we're detected we had better be on approach to the target because even with evasion and aggressive counterattacks we're cows in a stream of piranha. 

 

If you feel there's an issue with the German 20mm, I sympathize and hope you find out for sure if it's true or not.  But I can promise you that on the receiving end it's convincing.  And from a gameplay perspective, saying you refuse to fly online because of it is just goofy.  We already take 30 minute detours to the rear of a target, flying below the treetops and counting the roads and intersections for navigation BECAUSE those weapons are so lethal to our armored aircraft, not to roleplay.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Silas

[150GCT_Veltro]

In a fuel tank the air/fuel vapour can be an explosive mixture if the tank is not full

 

In IL-2 and other Russian aircraft a system of cooling and pumping inert exhaust gasses (Co2) into the fuel tanks wa used to make fuel tank inert and non explosive.

One downside was that it was (gas) corrosive to the fuel tanks, but not seen in a limited life combat aircraft as a serious issue

 

In game you can see it visually modelled on fuel tank behind pilot

 

A different inert gas system was used on early F4 Corsair models but I believe deleted due to weight issues

 

Chers Dakpilot

 

Ok, this is very interesting and it need to be elaboreted.

If i remember well this problem has been modelled in the game, so we should have to fly with more fuel instead of 40% - 50%, right? This is very interesting even if it does not explain the cartridge explosions, almost missed in VVS aircrafts, but in this case we should have to know how many explosions are related to the fuel empty tank iusse, and how many to the cartridges.

 

However, in my experiences there really too many explosions in % flying the Lutwaffe aircarfts, as for Macchi 202. a sort of default DM. I think we should or better they should have to verify the AP power of Berezin MG.

 

With Yak-1b deploying, the % of explosions has grown up, so i think this is related to the overpowered (a bit) Berezin 12,7 instead of 20mm.

 

***

 

 

33. Chance of ammo detonation after ammo racks hit increased for all aircraft;

 

In this case, "chances" are incredible high for the Lutfwaffe aircafts, as for Macchi, so is really important to know more about the empty fuel tanks iusse. I remember something about it, but i don't find the DD. Did they implement it in game?

Edited December 7, 2016 by 150GCT_Veltro

[Dakpilot]

Just did a small bit of googling

 

It would seem that Pe 2, Lagg 3, Mig 3, La - 5, Yak 7 and IL-2 were fitted with inert gas fuel system

 

Did not find any evidence of Yak 1 of any models, but this was not an exhaustive research on any of the aircraft, always welcome for better info and details

 

Just to say this is not trying to claim 'there are no problems'' but simply, that looking sometimes for reasons and info with an open mind is always better than immediately claiming bias or suchlike

 

Inert gas system in Soviet aircraft MAY be a reason for some to perceive Russian aircraft do not blow up as often as others

 

Much in the same way that Bf 109 being the most popular Luftwaffe ride, some thought must be given to its highly engineered lightweight construction (well documented) compared to much less sophisticated but in some cases, heavier and stronger construction Russian adversaries

 

Lagg 3's while being shot down by the boatload (for many reasons) was considered a very tough/resilient aircraft by pilots and historians alike, notwithstanding early manufacturing flaws (quickly fixed) that may have tarnished perception of all Russian aircraft strength (talking very casual audience here)

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Livai]

the weeping, lamenting is strong here

 

With a single 20mm MG151 cannon I can do this damage from distance even able to cause a plane explosion or cut the plane into half. A single 20mm MG151 Cannon is everything I need to draw epic damage into the enemy plane with a few shots!!!!!

Edited December 7, 2016 by Superghostboy

[150GCT_Veltro]

Just did a small bit of googling

 

It would seem that Pe 2, Lagg 3, Mig 3, La - 5, Yak 7 and IL-2 were fitted with inert gas fuel system

 

Did not find any evidence of Yak 1 of any models, but this was not an exhaustive research on any of the aircraft, always welcome for better info and details

 

Just to say this is not trying to claim 'there are no problems'' but simply, that looking sometimes for reasons and info with an open mind is always better than immediately claiming bias or suchlike

 

Inert gas system in Soviet aircraft MAY be a reason for some to perceive Russian aircraft do not blow up as often as others

 

Much in the same way that Bf 109 being the most popular Luftwaffe ride, some thought must be given to its highly engineered lightweight construction (well documented) compared to much less sophisticated but in some cases, heavier and stronger construction Russian adversaries

 

Lagg 3's while being shot down by the boatload (for many reasons) was considered a very tough/resilient aircraft by pilots and historians alike, notwithstanding early manufacturing flaws (quickly fixed) that may have tarnished perception of all Russian aircraft strength (talking very casual audience here)

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

I don't find the DD but it doesn't matter. I get the point but please remember also that we have the same problem ("feeling") with Macchi 202, that was not at all a lightweight construction aircraft: "pilot killed" and "blow up" have a very high % as well. So, there are still some good reasons here to have doubts about the russian weapons overpowered "behaviour".

 

However now, i'm more interested in the fuel tank iusse because this could be the prof that 20mm are underpowered. A semi-empty fuel tank would explode without any doubts with a 20mm. Really, we can't state that VVS aircafts in the game explode in the same % on the German/Italian aircrafts.

Axis explode just with 12,7

VVS doesn't with 20mm

 

Not a complain, really, i only try to understand better this important aspect of the game. Too many times we fly with semi-empty fuel tank, so this tactical behaviuor should have to be probably changed.

Edited December 7, 2016 by 150GCT_Veltro

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 SuperGhostBoy. I highly doubt this flaming wreckage was done with a single hit. Can you consistently repeat it? Was this a lucky once in a lifetime shot? People seem to put too much faith and high expectations on the inert gas system. Yes, capable of reducing risk of fire on small calibre shots or luckily even on a larger calibre one. But it could NOT do a squat against cannon shells ripping the structure open flushing out the gas to the airstream.

 

He-111 durability was mentioned. A Heinkel landed in France with hundreds of hits by Spitfires and Hurricanes. It did not catch fire, break in two or explode. It had wounded crew on board, but it landed safely at base wheels down. Photos can be found for those proficient with google, for example. I do not comment on the DM in BoX as it is a personal view of the devs how it is done now. What they base it on, who knows and not gonna argue about it. But it is a bit strange that one of the best, if not the best, HE ammo (Minengeschoss) is relatively puny compared to 12.7mm or even 7.92mm damage wise.

Edited December 7, 2016 by LLv34_Flanker

[Dakpilot]

S!

 

 SuperGhostBoy. I highly doubt this flaming wreckage was done with a single hit. Can you consistently repeat it? Was this a lucky once in a lifetime shot? 

 

 

 

I think you completely misunderstand Superghostboys attempt at Humour.....

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Yogiflight]

BTW, Superghostboy didn't write, that it was with a single hit, but with a single MG151/20. He surely had some more hits, than one.

[150GCT_Veltro]

S!

 

People seem to put too much faith and high expectations on the inert gas system. Yes, capable of reducing risk of fire on small calibre shots or luckily even on a larger calibre one. But it could NOT do a squat against cannon shells ripping the structure open flushing out the gas to the airstream.

 

 

 

+1

Exactly.

The first HE 20mm should have to brake every barrages, the others should have to make disasters inside the structure, first of all in a fighter. A fuel tank, full or not, should have to spry the fuel with 20mm shell, and make the right explosive mixture with the oxigen. The HE would be the trigger.

Edited December 7, 2016 by 150GCT_Veltro

[Dakpilot]

I think people misunderstand what the inert gas system is intended for, it is mainly for preventing explosion not as primarily a fire prevention device

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[150GCT_Veltro]

I think people misunderstand what the inert gas system is intended for, it is mainly for preventing explosion not as primarily a fire prevention device

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

Yes, but does it work also with 20mm? This is the main question, and the answer is: NO it doesn't.

 

So we return to the same question, 20mm HE and explosion of VVS aircrafts.

Edited December 7, 2016 by 150GCT_Veltro

[Gunsmith86]

Yes, but does it work also with 20mm? This is the main question, and the answer is: NO it doesn't.

 

So we return to the same question, 20mm HE and explosion of VVS aircrafts.

If you are a little bit lucky than it could help you to prevent fire from the first hit but all other projectiles that hit the same fueltank will do there job and set you on fire.

[150GCT_Veltro]

We are talking about explosion with istantaneous pilot killing, not flaming. May be, we have fuel tank explosion (literally) only on Luftwaffe aircarfts, and just only flaming for VVS.

Edited December 7, 2016 by 150GCT_Veltro

[Dakpilot]

Fuel tank inert systems are still used today in many applications  in Civil, Military aircraft, Marine applications and storage uses

 

http://www.airspacemag.com/how-things-work/safer-fuel-tanks-5883916/

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inerting_system

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[SvAF/F19_Tomten]

We are talking about explosion with istantaneous pilot killing, not flaming. May be, we have fuel tank explosion (literally) only on Luftwaffe aircarfts, and just only flaming for VVS.

 

I had a P-40 explode due to my gunfire, so no.

[StG77_Kondor]

Fuel tank inert systems are still used today in many applications  in Civil, Military aircraft, Marine applications and storage uses

 

http://www.airspacemag.com/how-things-work/safer-fuel-tanks-5883916/

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inerting_system

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

 Let's do an experiment. We can have Cheers Dakpilot stand behind an inert system while being shot by just two MG151/20 rounds. There'll be no way to reproduce mysterious 'packet loss' and warping unfortunately.  

 

We're not asking about the system's current modern day use. The question was simple. Would it deter several 20mm hits? Believe the answer is nyet.