Cannon demage model

[EAF19_Marsh]

Gunsmith, I believe your second Spitfire photo is actually damage from a 109 E-3's MG-17s and MG-FF on 18th August 1940 - it is in Alfred Price's book The Hardest Day

 

Spitfire Mk I X4110 holds the record of having the shortest service life of any Supermarine fighter flown operationally during the war. Within 2 hours of its delivery to No 602 Squadron RAF at RAF Westhampnett on 18 August 1940 and without its guns being harmonized it was flown by F/L John D Urie of A Flight and survived just 25 minutes in combat, being shot up by fighters and landing with such damage that it was written off.

[Irgendjemand]

Interesting!

 

Look at this. How far is it, 1000m or more?

 

I love how the gunner doesnt even matter. LOL

Edited December 5, 2016 by Irgendjemand

[Willy__]

 

 

I love how the gunner doesnt even matter. LOL

 

I think at that point the gunner was long dead   

[Y29.Layin_Scunion]

Well, there is clearly something wrong here, can't deny it. 

 

 

 

 

But when I said "exagerated", it was concerning the "109 can't one shot" statement...

Let's check the best example I have in mind of a "one shoter" in 109, that I met multiple times on 72AG:

http://72ag-ded.ru/en/sortie/46624/?tour=4

http://72ag-ded.ru/en/sortie/log/46624/?tour=4

 

6 planes shot down in a 109 without gunpods.

 

4 of them were shot down with burst duration of 1 second... these are not targets who flied away heavily damaged and crashed later, no. It was "shotdown" status in 1 second...

And in the 4 shot down in 1 sec, there were 2 il-2s which are supposed to be tough targets to destroy...

 

So yes, the "109 can't one shot" statement seems a bit exagerated...

 

Maybe there is something wrong with German 20mm, yes.

But stop exagerating, 109s are very capable of destroying planes with a short burst...

But you're ruining the circle jerk....

[Gunsmith86]

Gunsmith, I believe your second Spitfire photo is actually damage from a 109 E-3's MG-17s and MG-FF on 18th August 1940 - it is in Alfred Price's book The Hardest Day

 

Spitfire Mk I X4110 holds the record of having the shortest service life of any Supermarine fighter flown operationally during the war. Within 2 hours of its delivery to No 602 Squadron RAF at RAF Westhampnett on 18 August 1940 and without its guns being harmonized it was flown by F/L John D Urie of A Flight and survived just 25 minutes in combat, being shot up by fighters and landing with such damage that it was written off.

 

Thats possible the 20mm flak and the MG-FF of the E3 have the same typ of projectile.

Thanks

[Feathered_IV]

i want to ask since i never really was interest in how good russian cannos were

but you shoot over 70 rounds of Minengeschoß into plane and barely make his engine smoke...

Wow, that many?

[ShamrockOneFive]

One Minengeschoss hit from dead 6 should severly hinder the manouverability of the target, either elevator, aileron or rudder. A few of them, and those inceptors should be unusuable which pretty much kills an aircraft. Apart from the "oneshot-rudderloss" which i guess simulates a destroyed cable, i have never felt that partial destruction of those inceptors is modeled in the game. Probably another reason why Minengeschoss isn't as effective as it should. 

 

That is definitely a 30mm hit.

 

I'd expect a few 20mm hits would be required to ensure that things would be very unpleasant for the hit aircraft. A single 20mm may not do a whole bunch depending on the where. The where it hits is very important both virtually and in real life.

 

I'm not saying that dead 6 shots being ineffective is right or wrong. Just that its what I noticed so my method of making it easier to score a kill is to try and hit the cannon shell overtop of my target in an angled shot. Seems to result in one shot kills more frequently. I see video of guys performing this beautiful bounce but their aim is not the best and they get a glancing shot off a wingtip or on the top of the tail and sometimes that will do some damage but other times its just that... a glancing hit and most of the explosive power is not hitting the plane. THEN they come to the forum and complain about it.

 

Sometimes the gunnery really is the problem.

 

But I also think the MG151 needs a good looking over. The other machine guns and weapons seem to be ok. Its probably something to do with the mine round and it may also have to do with netcode but I don't know.

 

I dont know about you, but when I get hit/damaged while flying the german planes they become a bitch to fly. I can feel the plane slower and doing weird stuff because of the damage.

 

With that said, I dont know about the russian planes, but it seems they dont suffer maneuverability loss from damage like the germans ones and continue to fly and doing loops and tight turns at will; but they do get slower a tiny bit.

 

You get hit in a Russian plane and its a disaster just as much as it is for the German ones. It all depends on what was damaged but if you get hit in a wing... doesn't matter what it is... MiG, LaGG, I-16 ... they become really difficult to fly. The 109 is a bit more sensitive with its lighter construction but it doesn't matter too much. If you get hit hard it gets difficult or impossible to fly and trying to pull a loop in a damaged Yak is just as futile as in a 109.

 

Again, I think sometimes (from the video I watch) that people overestimate the kind of hit they landed and it doesn't take much to cause some light fuel leaks in a Russian fighter with the fuel tanks in the wing and that gives the appearance of a badly damaged plane when they are just fine with a slight peppering in a fuel tank.

 

Fly for both sides equally and things don't feel so different.

[LittleJP]

Dead 6 hits on the tail or the wing really don't seem to do much. I get my half second burst kills flying either side with an angled attack on the engines or cockpit. I'll need to check the Russian guns against Russian planes in dead six shots, but I feel that part of it is that the 109s have more fragile wings, so these hits to the wingtips/tail do more damage, comparatively speaking.

[Wulf]

One Minengeschoss hit from dead 6 should severly hinder the manouverability of the target, either elevator, aileron or rudder. A few of them, and those inceptors should be unusuable which pretty much kills an aircraft. Apart from the "oneshot-rudderloss" which i guess simulates a destroyed cable, i have never felt that partial destruction of those inceptors is modeled in the game. Probably another reason why Minengeschoss isn't as effective as it should. 

 

 

Do we know for a fact this is the result of a fighter attack?  The photo caption just says "battle damage".  Is there more info about this somewhere to confirm it's air to air?  Given the extent of the damage I'd have thought it was far more likely to be flak, maybe clipped by a 37mm or in close proximity to an air burst (37 or 88mm).  That's a hell of a lot of damage for a 30mm I'd have thought.

[ShamrockOneFive]

One thing I've been thinking about... the ShVAK seems to be fine from dead 6 whereas the MG151/20 seems to be a little less effective from that spot. But I haven't spent a lot of time firing the MG151/15 which doesn't have the large mine shells and I presume has smaller HE and AP rounds fired at a higher rate (a bit more like the ShVAK).

 

Is there the possibility that the MG151/15 is more effective than the MG151/20 at from this trajectory? Talking purely from a game engine perspective.

Edited December 6, 2016 by ShamrockOneFive

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

Do we know for a fact this is the result of a fighter attack?  The photo caption just says "battle damage".  Is there more info about this somewhere to confirm it's air to air?  Given the extent of the damage I'd have thought it was far more likely to be flak, maybe clipped by a 37mm or in close proximity to an air burst (37 or 88mm).  That's a hell of a lot of damage for a 30mm I'd have thought.

 

It could very well be a 30mm Mine shell. These rounds had either 85 or 72 (!) g of explosives, this is more than ten times the explosive filling of the ShVAK. I don't know how much HE did a FlaK 37mm round carry, but for comparison the HE shells of the P-39's 37mm cannon had 45g of HE and Soviet 37mm had 34g of HE.  These fillers were of different compositions and had different TNT equivalent, but from what I could find the equivalencies were 1.66 TNT equivalent for the Mine filling, then 1.6 for Soviet filling, and finally 1.25 for the P-39's filling.

 

There is this video of a Spitfire wing being shot by a single MK 108 mine shell, and the results are quite similar (devastating).

 

[LLv34_Wmaker]

Looking at the banana-pealing of the wing skin of that P-47, I think two separate hits next to each other can be seen.

 

Based on the date of the photograph it is IMO most likely that the damage has been sustained in air combat.

 

Two explosive MG151/20 shells is my guess what caused the damage.

[150GCT_Veltro]

One thing I've been thinking about... the ShVAK seems to be fine from dead 6 whereas the MG151/20 seems to be a little less effective from that spot. But I haven't spent a lot of time firing the MG151/15 which doesn't have the large mine shells and I presume has smaller HE and AP rounds fired at a higher rate (a bit more like the ShVAK).

 

Is there the possibility that the MG151/15 is more effective than the MG151/20 at from this trajectory? Talking purely from a game engine perspective.

 

Yes, i think you're right.

 

The same problem is for the Berezin 12,7 MG, probably a bit "overmodelled" compared to the 20mm.

[Wulf]

It could very well be a 30mm Mine shell. These rounds had either 85 or 72 (!) g of explosives, this is more than ten times the explosive filling of the ShVAK. I don't know how much HE did a FlaK 37mm round carry, but for comparison the HE shells of the P-39's 37mm cannon had 45g of HE and Soviet 37mm had 34g of HE.  These fillers were of different compositions and had different TNT equivalent, but from what I could find the equivalencies were 1.66 TNT equivalent for the Mine filling, then 1.6 for Soviet filling, and finally 1.25 for the P-39's filling.

 

There is this video of a Spitfire wing being shot by a single MK 108 mine shell, and the results are quite similar (devastating).

 

 

 

You may well be right.  That's a hell of a big hole.

[ITAF_Cymao]

I only saw german aircraft explode just hit by russian guns, but never a russian aircraft explode just hit by german guns! Never!
I dont know if it depends on the efficiency of the guns or damage model, but often there is a feeling that with only a few shots the Germans aircrafts quickly become inefficient and inoffensive, while russian aircraft, although heavily hit seem that continue to maintain intact their performance and their attacking potential ...
Maybe they are just feelings...

Edited December 6, 2016 by ITAF_Cymao

[Danziger]

So I guess this is the new "190 FM"?

[216th_Jordan]

I only saw german aircraft explode just hit by russian guns, but never a russian aircraft explode just hit by german guns! Never!

I dont know if it depends on the efficiency of the guns or damage model, but often there is a feeling that with only a few shots the Germans aircrafts quickly become inefficient and inoffensive, while russian aircraft, although heavily hit seem that continue to maintain intact their performance and their attacking potential ...

Maybe they are just feelings...

 

I don't fly german a lot but I really don't know what you are doing as quite some Allied planes blew up in front of me when I am flying Axis. It might indeed be less, I'm not sure about that and didn't do a statistic analysis, but it definately does happen.

[novicebutdeadly]

Definately Trinkof, Impact speed seems to play an important role even with HE in this game and seeing that german rounds are rather slow this has quite an impact. When I dive in on a traget with a 109 and hit the enemy with high speed difference it is definately going down a lot faster.

 

Define slow?? When a M-Geschoss round was fired out of a MG151 (20mm) it's velocity was 805 m/s which is greater than the  Russian 20mm , but lower than the Russian 23mm.

[216th_Jordan]

Define slow?? When a M-Geschoss round was fired out of a MG151 (20mm) it's velocity was 805 m/s which is greater than the  Russian 20mm , but lower than the Russian 23mm.

 

I must have mixed it up with something else then, sorry about that. Not sure whats the cause then. 

[novicebutdeadly]

Problem with the Mineshell is how it worked IRL, as this is almost impossible to model accurately.

 

So you make those big puffs of smoke and think: why the hell is he not going down when I hit him with 3 or 5 or 7 of  my cannonbombs!? (he normally does go way down with 7)

 

The problem is indeed that a Mineshell will have less fragments and those are likely to be less dangerous as their velocity will be lower due to the thinner walls. What made the Mineshell so deadly in real life was the moment it exploded inside a structure. So If you attack and enemy plane one Mineshell would rip open quite a part of the structure of the part hit and now, with far more deadliness a second round travels through the hole and explodes inside the structure. (Were at some point delayed fuzes in use? Not sure about that) Now the additional explosive material in the round will make the structure around it rip apart much like an explosive decompression.

 

But now try to model that in a simulator.. thats a tough job.

Btw: I think if those explosion animations of the Mineshell were smaller I actually think there would be less feeling that they are underpowered, but thats just a guess.

 

Edit: Just fund out mineshells were delayed to not lose most of their power outside of a part hit.

When a HE shell goes off you have the fragments plus also the explosive force itself (shock wave)

 

The mine round had thinner side walls, but were of a strong construction (so not aluminium foil to use a hyperbole), so while the there would be less material to be propelled during the larger explosion (of even the Russian 23mm round) the combination of the 2 would be devastating against a fighter.

Edited December 6, 2016 by novicebutdeadly

[ITAF_Rani]

I Fly Axis since 1 year....VVS plane are really strong to be shot down....if you are luky to destroy engine or rip a wing you have made yor job quickly and often it happens but not so much.....I see often VVS plane ( expaecially La 5 or LaGG) suffer many hits and still flying like nothing has happened with holes in wings and smoking black, flying and turning and continuing  to fight untill his engine is definitivelly dead....

Instead usually few hits on a Bf109 destroy his contols or kill engine in a matter of seconds...

[216th_Jordan]

 

so while the there would be less material to be propelled during the larger explosion (of even the Russian 23mm round) the combination of the 2 would be devastating against a fighter.

 

May I ask where you got that from as it does not seem plausible to me. (Happy to learn something new though)

Commonly thinner walls will have less resistance and burst earlier than thicker walls thus resulting in lower velocity for thin wall fragments. 

Edited December 6, 2016 by 216th_Jordan

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

I only saw german aircraft explode just hit by russian guns, but never a russian aircraft explode just hit by german guns! Never!

I dont know if it depends on the efficiency of the guns or damage model, but often there is a feeling that with only a few shots the Germans aircrafts quickly become inefficient and inoffensive, while russian aircraft, although heavily hit seem that continue to maintain intact their performance and their attacking potential ...

Maybe they are just feelings...

 

In SP I've blown many-a-wing off of P40s and IL-2s due to detonating their ammunition/rockets.

 

With that being said, I understand the concept of "just feelings" but I do have a lot more success with VVS fighters in SP... Tremendous firing rate and decent ballistics aside, it just seems like their shells cause more damage.

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

So I guess this is the new "190 FM"?

If it were, all the claims would be justified. Is that what you are hinting at :D?

[E69_geramos109]

Well, there is clearly something wrong here, can't deny it. 

 

 

 

 

But when I said "exagerated", it was concerning the "109 can't one shot" statement...

Let's check the best example I have in mind of a "one shoter" in 109, that I met multiple times on 72AG:

http://72ag-ded.ru/en/sortie/46624/?tour=4

http://72ag-ded.ru/en/sortie/log/46624/?tour=4

 

6 planes shot down in a 109 without gunpods.

 

4 of them were shot down with burst duration of 1 second... these are not targets who flied away heavily damaged and crashed later, no. It was "shotdown" status in 1 second...

And in the 4 shot down in 1 sec, there were 2 il-2s which are supposed to be tough targets to destroy...

 

So yes, the "109 can't one shot" statement seems a bit exagerated...

 

Maybe there is something wrong with German 20mm, yes.

But stop exagerating, 109s are very capable of destroying planes with a short burst...

You took an example maybe with one of the best german players. 1stCL Werner. He of corse is so skilled aiming so in a fast brust is able to put all the hits on the target and also to aim weak spots as i do. Also, a one second brust with a single canon with 750 rounds per minute has  12 rounds so if you put two more guns you have a potencial to hit the enemy with 36 rounds. Pilots like that can put most of the rounds on the targuet so yes, a one second brust is a lot to shot down a fighter.

 

That is the problem with the germans. Of corse a skilled pilot with great gunnery can make a lot of kills and also the 109 has a lot of ammo but only the aces can do that, not an average pilot who can only hit some round. With a russian you take the kill because the german plane turns unflyable but in oposite situation the red plane can still defeding himself and back home only with some leak or painted holes on the wing. 

[Dakpilot]

If it were, all the claims would be justified. Is that what you are hinting at :D?

 

Except many of the claims about FW 190 FM were not at all justified, people seem to forget or gloss over that

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[E69_geramos109]

I don't fly german a lot but I really don't know what you are doing as quite some Allied planes blew up in front of me when I am flying Axis. It might indeed be less, I'm not sure about that and didn't do a statistic analysis, but it definately does happen.

You should take more often the german planes to realise how frustrating is. 

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

 

 

Except many of the claims about FW 190 FM were not at all justified, people seem to forget or gloss over that

 

Sorry mate, but the opposite is true.

 

Cheers SD!

[II./JG77_Manu*]

Except many of the claims about FW 190 FM were not at all justified, people seem to forget or gloss over that

 

Cheers Dakpilot

That's wrong. The vast majority were arguing about the issue, that showed to be true -->wrong CLmax, wrong critical angle -->too harsh stalling characteristics. A tiny minority was arguing about different things (dive acceleration for example, which is far from "not at all justified"). Don't twist reality again.

Edited December 6, 2016 by II./JG77_Manu*

[Dakpilot]

Sorry mate, but the opposite is true.

 

Cheers SD!

 

Every single claim about FM? Speeds, climb performance, energy retention ETC. ETC. was true? go re-read some of the threads answered by devs about FW 190 FM

 

I am very happy the FW 190 FM is being revisited, but sorry mate, you are being revisionist

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[216th_Jordan]

You should take more often the german planes to realise how frustrating is. 

 

Its not really frustrating most of the time, atleast not more than flying russian planes, rather less. Anyways, I also 'feel' that Mineshells don't do the damage I do expect them to do. However if I want to rack up kills on berloga I take a 109, but that should not be a matter of discussion here. 

[II./JG77_Manu*]

 

 

Speeds, climb performance, energy retention ETC.

Speed and climb performance both was fixed in different updates. Energy retention still to be debatable, let's wait for the update. Nothing at all "not justified". 

[Willy__]

Aaaaaand FM/DM police is all over the place already. 

Edited December 24, 2016 by JAGER_Staiger

[LukeFF]

Aaaaaand the FM/DM police is all over the place already. 

 

And as usual, you resort to name-calling.

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

Every single claim about FM? Speeds, climb performance, energy retention ETC. ETC. was true? go re-read some of the threads answered by devs about FW 190 FM

 

I am very happy the FW 190 FM is being revisited, but sorry mate, you are being revisionist

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Speed - was corrected after ppl claimed it was wrong

Climb performance - see above

Energy retention - now being changed due to new lift/drag ratio (less drag)

 

So yeah pretty much everything you said was wrong and got/ will be fixed. Got some more?

 

Cheers SD

Edited December 6, 2016 by II/JG17_SchwarzeDreizehn

[Dakpilot]

Speed and climb performance both was fixed in different updates. Energy retention still to be debatable, let's wait for the update. Nothing at all "not justified". 

 

My dear Manu* I am sorry I am obviously mistaken, every claim made about what was wrong with the FW 190 was correct, the Dev's were wrong on every single point

 

seems it must be quite easy to get an accurate FM just ask the viewers what they want 

 

I am sorry but Schwarze' comment was not accurate

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[LukeFF]

Well, the answer is easy enough to find

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

actually you are right. There are quite a lot of claims about the 190 that were wrong. Almost all of them were in support of the current state though

[IRRE_Centx]

You took an example maybe with one of the best german players. 1stCL Werner. He of corse is so skilled aiming so in a fast brust is able to put all the hits on the target and also to aim weak spots as i do. Also, a one second brust with a single canon with 750 rounds per minute has  12 rounds so if you put two more guns you have a potencial to hit the enemy with 36 rounds. Pilots like that can put most of the rounds on the targuet so yes, a one second brust is a lot to shot down a fighter.

 

That is the problem with the germans. Of corse a skilled pilot with great gunnery can make a lot of kills and also the 109 has a lot of ammo but only the aces can do that, not an average pilot who can only hit some round. With a russian you take the kill because the german plane turns unflyable but in oposite situation the red plane can still defeding himself and back home only with some leak or painted holes on the wing. 

 

I know that I took the example of one of the best 109 pilots, I'm clearly aware of this since I met him multiple times... and it never ended well for me <_<

 

But your answer prove my point here, people should stop saying "109s can't one shot" but "I'm not skilled enough with 109s to one shot".

 

 

I have no idea if the current German 20mms are correctly modeled or not.

But if we listen to some players here the German 20mms are potato launchers... no, they're not. They're efficient... well at least in my Yaks they're efficient, half of the time when I'm shot down I just hear "bang" and my Yak is not flyable anymore...

Maybe they're not 100% correctly efficient, I don't know. It's just boring to see exagerated statements all the time...

Edited December 6, 2016 by -IRRE-Centx

[Dakpilot]

actually you are right. There are quite a lot of claims about the 190 that were wrong. Almost all of them were in support of the current state though

 

People should steer clear of making absolute statements as facts, it makes for a much easier forum 

 

 

 

Aaaaaand the FM/DM police is all over the place already. 

 

 

Seriously , grow up,  you only make Luftwaffe and all aircraft fans look foolish, cloud legitimate argument and add to forum strife

 

Cheers Dakpilot