Cannon demage model

[MatSK]

i want to ask since i never really was interest in how good russian cannos were

but you shoot over 70 rounds of  Minengeschoß into plane and barely make his engine smoke

but you take ShVak shoot 3 rounds into german and boom his plane rips apart or take out his engine and elevator control

 

as i said i dont really know much about how much ShVak was reliable but i know 151 was not that some italian crap...

i really feel like im in warthunder when my german cannons just sparkle and when i take yak i rip everything in 1 shot....

[Custard]

but you shoot over 70 rounds of  Minengeschoß into plane and barely make his engine smoke

 

No need to be facetious.

 

tbh I don't tend to have much luck with either side's cannons, though I find the ShKAS to be absolutely fantastic.

[E69_geramos109]

They have different names for the problem:

 

Luck, net code, feelings... 

 

There are a huge discussion about that. Im recording some tracks to make other video about that. 

[SvAF/F19_Tomten]

I usually find that the German cannons has very low effect against most targets.. Except for when hitting the MiG-3, the pilot is very easily killed I've found, both from flying it myself and shooting it down.

[Danziger]

No need to be facetious.

 

tbh I don't tend to have much luck with either side's cannons, though I find the ShKAS to be absolutely fantastic.

I love the ShKAS as well. Yes it may be smaller rifle bullets but it sprays a lot of them very fast. While it may not explode a plane or rip it apart you can put a couple of short bursts near the engines and be almost guaranteed that plane will have to go down. I honestly prefer the 1xUBS+2xShKAS over the 2xShVak when I'm in the MiG-3.

[216th_Jordan]

Problem with the Mineshell is how it worked IRL, as this is almost impossible to model accurately.

 

So you make those big puffs of smoke and think: why the hell is he not going down when I hit him with 3 or 5 or 7 of  my cannonbombs!? (he normally does go way down with 7)

 

The problem is indeed that a Mineshell will have less fragments and those are likely to be less dangerous as their velocity will be lower due to the thinner walls. What made the Mineshell so deadly in real life was the moment it exploded inside a structure. So If you attack and enemy plane one Mineshell would rip open quite a part of the structure of the part hit and now, with far more deadliness a second round travels through the hole and explodes inside the structure. (Were at some point delayed fuzes in use? Not sure about that) Now the additional explosive material in the round will make the structure around it rip apart much like an explosive decompression.

 

But now try to model that in a simulator.. thats a tough job.

Btw: I think if those explosion animations of the Mineshell were smaller I actually think there would be less feeling that they are underpowered, but thats just a guess.

 

Edit: Just fund out mineshells were delayed to not lose most of their power outside of a part hit.

Edited December 4, 2016 by 216th_Jordan

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I know "demage," is just a spelling error but it does make cannon explosions sound rather French and pleasant.

[Irgendjemand]

i can say only one thing to that.

if it was deadly in rl and it isnt here then its simply not well simulated.

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

 

 

I love the ShKAS as well. Yes it may be smaller rifle bullets but it sprays a lot of them very fast. While it may not explode a plane or rip it apart

 

Indeed it will rip a plane apart. Mr X demonstrating a long range ShKAS kill on TAW.

 

[CisTer-dB-]

was not that some italian crap

Hey Italian make some good things Ferrari, food, women.....

Edited December 5, 2016 by ATAG_dB

[II./JG77_Manu*]

Hey Italian make some good think Ferrari, food, women.....

 

Cut the women, Germanic-Slavic-Ugric mixtures (Poland, Czech, Hungary) rule this department

Agree on the cars and food though   they also make some good landscapes, i heard 

Edited December 5, 2016 by II./JG77_Manu*

[=EXPEND=CG_Justin]

Hey Italian make some good think Ferrari, food, women.....

 

I was married to an Italian woman for ten years....I beg to differ.

[IRRE_Centx]

Funny thing with this kind of topic is that we never see the Russian point of view.

 

You know, the point of view of all Yak/Lagg/Mig which are one shoted by 109s and their "unefficient" canons...

[150GCT_Veltro]

Indeed it will rip a plane apart. Mr X demonstrating a long range ShKAS kill on TAW.

 

 

.....................

 

Give it up, and just hope for a 20mm fix.

[Asgar]

Funny thing with this kind of topic is that we never see the Russian point of view.

 

You know, the point of view of all Yak/Lagg/Mig which are one shoted by 109s and their "unefficient" canons...

because they don't exist

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

because they don't exist

[IRRE_Centx]

because they don't exist

 

Funny, I get one shoted myself a lot in my Yak.

I guess I'm just dreaming then...

[Trinkof]

From my recent experience with 109,

 

IN GAME : the efficiency of the german 20mm seem to be ditectly linked to the difference of speed between targets.

 

I find that in high speed BnZ pass versus a slow target, I often one shot the enemy with a few rounds. Cuting wings or litteraly disintegrating the opponent.

 

When turning at medium speed versus an opponent as fast as me, regardless of how many shot I fire, the explosion happens behind or around the enemy and do not do much damage, beside fuel or coolant hit.

 

From my past experience with red plane, gun seem efficient regardless of the speed difference.

 

Might be placebo.... But I really feel that high speed attack seem to demultiply efficiency of german guns .

Edited December 5, 2016 by LAL_Trinkof

[216th_Jordan]

Definately Trinkof, Impact speed seems to play an important role even with HE in this game and seeing that german rounds are rather slow this has quite an impact. When I dive in on a traget with a 109 and hit the enemy with high speed difference it is definately going down a lot faster.

[150GCT_Veltro]

Just a question about stat, but it could be indicative about AP/HE problem.

 

How many times do you see Yak (or others) "blow up" compared to 109/190? The same for pilot killed.

[Trinkof]

Funny, I get one shoted myself a lot in my Yak.

I guess I'm just dreaming then...

This is why it is important to play both sides in this game .... To be able to see the complete picture.

 

Now that I invested more deeply in german plane I can agree with SOME of the complains of the exclusive german players... (23mm HE .... German 20mm... Etc... Yak being so incredibly easy to fly, pe2 insane durability)

 

And having countless hours on the red side I am also highly dubitative about some claims.

 

Yet I do not owe the truth...

 

Nothing is black or white, flying every plane is the only way to have a non biased judgement.

[IRRE_Centx]

This is why it is important to play both sides in this game .... To be able to see the complete picture.

 

Now that I invested more deeply in german plane I can agree with SOME of the complains of the exclusive german players... (23mm HE .... German 20mm... Etc... Yak being so incredibly easy to fly, pe2 insane durability)

 

And having countless hours on the red side I am also highly dubitative about some claims.

 

Yet I do not owe the truth...

 

Nothing is black or white, flying every plane is the only way to have a non biased judgement.

 

 

Note that I didn't say that everything was completely fine with the German 20mms, maybe there is indeed something wrong with them.

 

But some people on the forum have the tendency to exagerate the situation... if you listen to them the German 20mms are potato launchers unable to shoot down a plane... and THAT is wrong.

[Danziger]

The main problem I have when using German weapons is getting the rounds on target to begin with. German rounds have smaller cartridge cases so less powder to drive them which makes them fly in a big arc. This makes shooting at distances other than set convergence a guessing game. I usually wind up with mineshells exploding all around my target and very rarely on my target.

[ShamrockOneFive]

Getting used to my new stick and decided to fly a bunch of sorties in a Bf109 offline. I flew against Yaks, MiGs, LaGGs and La-5s mostly and I had no real troubles bringing down the enemy. It seems like dead 6 hits are the worst shots you can make while an off axis 20-30 degree deflection angle seems to be more effective. Why this is I'm not sure but its how it works for me.

 

I one shotted a bunch of Yaks. LaGGs are heavier and take a few more shots.

 

I tend to take more shots in the Bf109 and I'll start firing from further out than I do in the Yak/LaGG. I'm not sure why I approach this differently. With a Yak or a LaGG I usually approach to point blank while in the 109 I feel like I can squeeze off a shot accurately at range. And usually I'm able to get in a few shots that kill the plane but sometimes they don't seem to count quite as much. Quirk of the Mine round in-game maybe?

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

-snip-

 

I usually wind up with mineshells exploding all around my target and very rarely on my target.

 

MGeschoss doesn't self detonate like it should.

[Gunsmith86]

MGeschoss doesn't self detonate like it should.

 

Thats wrong there were two diffrent versions one that explode after 1200m and one that did only explode if it hit something.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Thats wrong there were two diffrent versions one that explode after 1200m and one that did only explode if it hit something.

 

I'm still waiting for the writeup you said you'd do in March, 2015.

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/15281-german-20mm/?p=243845

[Gunsmith86]

I'm still waiting for the writeup you said you'd do in March, 2015.

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/15281-german-20mm/?p=243845

 

Yes thats very difficult to do:

 

Here is a list of most german shells that i made so far its the best i could do.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1sX8ZB27l94Dy7DXSG6dbhXqbVKdvJ78MDlmnUMD4Q3M/edit#gid=1465002216

Edited December 5, 2016 by Gunsmith86

[II./JG77_Manu*]

It seems like dead 6 hits are the worst shots you can make while an off axis 20-30 degree deflection angle seems to be more effective.

One Minengeschoss hit from dead 6 should severly hinder the manouverability of the target, either elevator, aileron or rudder. A few of them, and those inceptors should be unusuable which pretty much kills an aircraft. Apart from the "oneshot-rudderloss" which i guess simulates a destroyed cable, i have never felt that partial destruction of those inceptors is modeled in the game. Probably another reason why Minengeschoss isn't as effective as it should. 

Edited December 5, 2016 by II./JG77_Manu*

[216th_Jordan]

One Minengeschoss hit from dead 6 should severly hinder the manouverability of the target, either elevator, aileron or rudder. A few of them, and those inceptors should be unusuable which pretty much kills an aircraft. Apart from the "oneshot-rudderloss" which i guess simulates a destroyed cable, i have never felt that partial destruction of those inceptors is modeled in the game. Probably another reason why Minengeschoss isn't as effective as it should. 

 

Wow! Was that 20 or 30mm?

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

 

 

But some people on the forum have the tendency to exagerate the situation

 

 

This times 1,000,000...................uh,

 

But seriously, this is a major problem in pretty much all internet communication nowadays. From both amateur forum posts all the way to "professional" news reports. The other problem is at the receiving end where no one actually checks for facts either.

[II./JG77_Manu*]

Wow! Was that 20 or 30mm?

 

I guess it's 30mm. But a few 20mm would have the same effect. Doesn't even have to be that huge, just wanted to demonstrate what i mean with "hinder manouverability due to hitting control surfaces". In game aircraft tend to happily keep twisting and turning after being hit multiple times. There is "completely fine" or "destroyed", apart from a few exceptions (engine related), there doesn't seem to be a noticable "damaged".

[Willy__]

I guess it's 30mm. But a few 20mm would have the same effect. Doesn't even have to be that huge, just wanted to demonstrate what i mean with "hinder manouverability due to hitting control surfaces". In game aircraft tend to happily keep twisting and turning after being hit multiple times. There is "completely fine" or "destroyed", apart from a few exceptions (engine related), there doesn't seem to be a noticable "damaged".

 

I dont know about you, but when I get hit/damaged while flying the german planes they become a bitch to fly. I can feel the plane slower and doing weird stuff because of the damage.

 

With that said, I dont know about the russian planes, but it seems they dont suffer maneuverability loss from damage like the germans ones and continue to fly and doing loops and tight turns at will; but they do get slower a tiny bit.

[II./JG77_Manu*]

I dont know about you, but when I get hit/damaged while flying the german planes they become a bitch to fly. I can feel the plane slower and doing weird stuff because of the damage.

 

With that said, I dont know about the russian planes, but it seems they dont suffer maneuverability loss from damage like the germans ones and continue to fly and doing loops and tight turns at will; but they do get slower a tiny bit.

 

Lately i flew mostly Russians, and i didn't really mind all the hits i got. Until i got one in the engine "engine damaged", which means i am doomed in a few minutes. But apart those engine hits, i don't really care about being hit in Russian aircraft, surely not at the control surfaces. I didn't feel any less confident to pull hard manouvers and stuff.

[Willy__]

 

 

Lately i flew mostly Russians, and i didn't really mind all the hits i got. Until i got one in the engine "engine damaged", which means i am doomed in a few minutes. But apart those engine hits, i don't really care about being hit in Russian aircraft, surely not at the control surfaces. I didn't feel any less confident to pull hard manouvers and stuff.

 

Thats what I feel aswell. Usually what happens in german planes is either you get insta killed/removed surface controls(rudder and elevator) or you dont receive damage at all. Losing an aileron/elevator/rudder also happens but they're less often. 

[StG2_Manfred]

Indeed it will rip a plane apart. Mr X demonstrating a long range ShKAS kill on TAW.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8K-CqhQLGQ

Interesting!

 

Look at this. How far is it, 1000m or more?

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=ihy3ZPvjQ2k&t=270

[150GCT_Veltro]

Actually i'm "suffering" something new, the BF-110 blow up..... Before there was the glass wing problem, now the blow up (Yak-1b 12,7 i think).

 

I don't know what's going on here with VVS weapons, but it's getting really boring, if not irritating and frustating.

 

http://72ag-ded.ru/en/sortie/log/48652/?tour=4

 

...109, 190 and now also 110 are the ballons blow up festival.

 

....exaggerated, really.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 5, 2016 by 150GCT_Veltro

[Gunsmith86]

Its difficult to attempt to find out which weapon did which damage and what ammunition was loaded:

 

 

Ju 88 or ME 110 Nightfighter 20mm MG-FFM or MG 151 made the larger holes and 7,92 mm MG 17 or splinters from explosiv rounds and Flak made the smaller holes.

 

 

most likely .50 AP ammo

 

20mm Flak:

 

Flak splinters 88mm and 37mm:

[Willy__]

Actually i'm "suffering" something new, the BF-110 blow up..... Before there was the glass wing problem, now the blow up (Yak-1b 12,7 i think).   I don't know what's going on here with VVS weapons, but it's getting really boring, if not irritating and frustating.   http://72ag-ded.ru/e...g/48652/?tour=4   ...109, 190 and now also 110 are the ballons blow up festival.   ....exaggerated, really.  

 

 

I've been blown up while flying the mc202 and the stuka aswell, but it was against a rata, which has 2 mgs and 2 cannons..... so... I guess the common factor here is indeed the VVS weapons   

 

And I mean blown up, not in the figurative way. In the first burst my pilot died and the game went to the third person camera and I saw the plane blown up.

 

I really dont mind getting shot, but I really dont see much axis planes being able to go back to base damaged while I always see lots and lots of russian planes landing back to base full of holes.

Edited December 5, 2016 by JAGER_Staiger

[IRRE_Centx]

Actually i'm "suffering" something new, the BF-110 blow up..... Before there was the glass wing problem, now the blow up (Yak-1b 12,7 i think).

 

I don't know what's going on here with VVS weapons, but it's getting really boring, if not irritating and frustating.

 

http://72ag-ded.ru/en/sortie/log/48652/?tour=4

 

...109, 190 and now also 110 are the ballons blow up festival.

 

....exaggerated, really.

 

Well, there is clearly something wrong here, can't deny it. 

 

 

 

 

But when I said "exagerated", it was concerning the "109 can't one shot" statement...

Let's check the best example I have in mind of a "one shoter" in 109, that I met multiple times on 72AG:

http://72ag-ded.ru/en/sortie/46624/?tour=4

http://72ag-ded.ru/en/sortie/log/46624/?tour=4

 

6 planes shot down in a 109 without gunpods.

 

4 of them were shot down with burst duration of 1 second... these are not targets who flied away heavily damaged and crashed later, no. It was "shotdown" status in 1 second...

And in the 4 shot down in 1 sec, there were 2 il-2s which are supposed to be tough targets to destroy...

 

So yes, the "109 can't one shot" statement seems a bit exagerated...

 

Maybe there is something wrong with German 20mm, yes.

But stop exagerating, 109s are very capable of destroying planes with a short burst...