VR support

[ZnarF]

(In fact, the inverse: we can't really say that "Our eyes work at X fps" -because fps is irrelevant for judging that system-; but as the Hollywood's specialists chose 25Hz for the entire film industry for decades, that's maybe for a reason. Empiricaly probably, but satisfaisant...  but these consideration should not loose the thread! ^^)

[SharpeXB]

There's nothing magic about 24fps. It's simply the slowest frame rate where we perceive a moving picture. It's more economical for film.

Nowadays we associate that look with fiction and video fps with reality. Personally I can't stand the "soap opera" effect that HDTV can add. It just looks terrible for movies.

Games are a different matter. The higher fps the better. 24fps is too slow for gaming. Generally 30-60 is good. A solid 60 is very nice.

Edited December 8, 2016 by SharpeXB

[ZnarF]

The great question: will we have at least a basic VR in the upcoming Dx11 release? According to the last DD, the "VR enhancement" is anew postponed -

[216th_Jordan]

The great question: will we have at least a basic VR in the upcoming Dx11 release? According to the last DD, the "VR enhancement" is anew postponed -

 

It will not come together with Dx11, that would be asking to much from them. Give them 2 or 3 more months and it should be there.

[Beazil]

I still haven't read of anyone getting vr to work in its current iteration.

I have a vive and can't get it to work at all with box following the instructions to the letter.

 

I look forward to vr working as intended.

[Rolling_Thunder]

I had BoS working with the vive up until yesterday. Now even if I have "or Enabled 0" and steam VR on the game wont load. If I have steam VR off the game loads. Oh well, it was fun while it lasted. I cant go back to a flat monitor and trackir. I guess i'll shelf BoS until the support for VR returns

Edited December 9, 2016 by Rolling_Thunder

[JG4_Sputnik]

I can't understand how easily you interchange physical properties of HDMs and software.

 

I can't understand how easily you interchange physical properties of HDMs and software.

 

Firstly "SuperSampling" as you named it  can't produce higher resolution. Games usually use one render to draw scene so it can't be true that  "Some Aerofly FS2 planes have an incredible render in VR". Many ppl loudly are saying that resolution and screen door effect are the are the greatest weak points of today VR tech,  i agre with them.

IMHO for online fighting (DSC,WT) VR is not yet good because you can't judge properly position of enemy plane when he is in some distance from you. Well as a team we have ppl with CV1 and Vive and other vr tech and i recently asked them about thiers HMDs - they said that they are gaterring the dust after first weeks of wow.....

Any way i gonna try BoS with ground attack planes - it could be fun. If  yout primary job is not spotting contacts and fighting against enemy's planes it should be ok. 

 

BTW 4K with ~100Hz refresh rate and God knows how powerfull PC  could be diffrent story :-)

 

Well then I might be some oddity - since I play DCS only in VR and have a blast. For long distant spotting I use labels on and when they are near enough I have a button set up that disables labels and then I shot the bastard.

 

I simply can't go back to a 2D monitor. It's just too good. Since I have my rift I only play DCS and never ever touched BoS again. And I will only go back when VR is enabled. Think about flying the Ju52 or the Me110! 8)

It's so crazy to fly in formation with other planes and actually "be" there. It is certainly no "wow" effect and that's it- it's a revolution. 

 

I flew the "Museum Relic" Campaign in DCS (20hours) and it's the most fun I had on PC since the old Il2, hands down!

 

But for online play it's true, you can't play competitively which I don't mind because immersion is far more important for me.

Bomber play and ground attack planes are much more fun for me anyway

[ZnarF]

Still no VR news from early triers of the Dx11 hot release??

[216th_Jordan]

Still no VR news from early triers of the Dx11 hot release??

VR will probably be supported by the end of winter.

[kissklas]

Edit: the vr support will come after the update to dx11. Most likely before the end of January.

 

And if you really want to try it as soon as possible, the side-by-side extended mode might be more fluid when dx11 comes:) will most likely be very clunky and with low framerates, but still.

Edited December 16, 2016 by kissklas

[Sim]

My Rift arrived two days ago and my first impressions were on a DCS Bf 109. The experience blew me away. I knew the cockpit was cramped in theory.. but I guess you need to sit in either a real 109 or a VR one to understand the idea of cramped. And the feeling of depth and altitude is incredible.

 

What I noticed immediately is that if you have a HOTAS system and have a pilot body enabled in the cockpit - your brain is completely fooled. Moving your stick and throttle and seeing it represented in the game with perfect tracking feels very natural, as if you are an extension of the plane. Then disable the pilot - and it feels way off. I have bound a quick access key to disable the pilot where I need to adjust some hard to access knobs with my mouse. But I guess in BoX the need to hide the pilot will be even less of an issue (due to lack of click pits). Devs should really look into adding pilot body during VR implementation.

 

One take away from early Rift tweaking is that you can increase the fidelity by using a super-sampling techniques. Basically rendering at a larger resolution and then down-sampling to native VR display resolution. DCS has this implemented as a "VR pixel density" option. You can basically run at 4K resolution and then only hit 45 fps that is required for Oculus Asynchronous Spacewarp feature (which will run at 90 fps using frame sampling). The tracking feels smooth and I don't feel nauseous or anything from ASW. This is actually what I am most worried about our upcoming VR implementation and its already announced choice of OpenVR. AFAIK you can't use Asynchronous Spacewarp with OpenVR - only with native Oculus SDK.

 

As for display clarity - from my initial tests with DCS I can tell you that with the VR pixel density setting in DCS I have no problem whatsoever reading Bf 109 instruments (maybe only some obscure instructional labels you can find in the cockpit). The long distance spotting might not be on the same level as your monitor - but there are workarounds for this as well (using larger LOD levels for example).

 

Super happy with my Rift so far and can't wait for Il-2 Sturmovik official VR support,

 

 

Edit: the vr support will come after the update to dx11. Most likely before the end of January.

 

AFAIK there was an update where the VR support was pushed back to "end of winter" as they want to implement some graphical features for Kuban map first. I doubt the end of January date still stands.

[ZnarF]

Sim, you've well resumed the VR feeling, a revolution - I check regularly this forum since 3 years with the hope of a VR support, and I've bought each BoX in this goal, but don't play them due to monitor-only [VR addiction since DK2]. Although adding a 109 G4 is nice, an enhancement of 3d sea for Battle of Kuban too, the VR support is constantly delayed... with that umpteenth delay, I feel the >200e I gave are lost. I'm guessing what would be the reaction of simmers here if the devs would tell "Yeeeah, the TrackIR is not supported yet, but in 3 years -maybe- we'll begin to look at this issue...before the end of a winter season". Maybe I'm worried because I feel BoX in VR would be an ultimate journey in the past... Even a basic stereo side-by-side should be initially ok (for every devs in car racing sims even with few-people-crew, it tooks less than one week to do a proper implementation): we could fiddle with BigScreen to send that to our VR headset...

Edited December 17, 2016 by ZnarF

[sinned]

Will Galaxy VR be supported? I am wondering if I should spend 2 k for vr.

[ZnarF]

As most VR major actors have decided to use a common VR API (Khronos API, including Valve, Samsung and Oculus), we could think that most VR devices -portable or not- could work. Of course, the quality of the experience could vary depending in the device used!

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Will Galaxy VR be supported? I am wondering if I should spend 2 k for vr.

Do you mean Samsung Gear VR for Galaxy phones series?

Sim, you've well resumed the VR feeling, a revolution - I check regularly this forum since 3 years with the hope of a VR support, and I've bought each BoX in this goal, but don't play them due to monitor-only [VR addiction since DK2]. Although adding a 109 G4 is nice, an enhancement of 3d sea for Battle of Kuban too, the VR support is constantly delayed... with that umpteenth delay, I feel the >200e I gave are lost. I'm guessing what would be the reaction of simmers here if the devs would tell "Yeeeah, the TrackIR is not supported yet, but in 3 years -maybe- we'll begin to look at this issue...before the end of a winter season". Maybe I'm worried because I feel BoX in VR would be an ultimate journey in the past... Even a basic stereo side-by-side should be initially ok (for every devs in car racing sims even with few-people-crew, it tooks less than one week to do a proper implementation): we could fiddle with BigScreen to send that to our VR headset...

LOL. To me it's waste of good time fun to not play this game in traditional monitor. 

[Jade_Monkey]

Sim, you've well resumed the VR feeling, a revolution - I check regularly this forum since 3 years with the hope of a VR support, and I've bought each BoX in this goal, but don't play them due to monitor-only [VR addiction since DK2]. Although adding a 109 G4 is nice, an enhancement of 3d sea for Battle of Kuban too, the VR support is constantly delayed... with that umpteenth delay, I feel the >200e I gave are lost. I'm guessing what would be the reaction of simmers here if the devs would tell "Yeeeah, the TrackIR is not supported yet, but in 3 years -maybe- we'll begin to look at this issue...before the end of a winter season". Maybe I'm worried because I feel BoX in VR would be an ultimate journey in the past... Even a basic stereo side-by-side should be initially ok (for every devs in car racing sims even with few-people-crew, it tooks less than one week to do a proper implementation): we could fiddle with BigScreen to send that to our VR headset...

 

Implementing VR was not a matter of adding some VR code to the game. In order to implement VR they explained that they had to upgrade THE ENTIRE GAME ENGINE to DX11 first. You dont do that in less than a week.

[Rolling_Thunder]

For me, going back to trackir and my monitor, after BoS stopped working with my vive lasted all of 2 minutes. It's just not the same. It really isn't. I'm not a poet, I'm not capable of waxing lyrical all I can say is until you try it you don't really know. For me, on a traditional monitor this is a game, with VR this is a simulation. It is night an day, Apple's and oranges. I hope VR support is a high priority, I hope VR prices drops so all can experience it.

[MadisonV44]

You will never be able to map the key on your sticks and throttle.

Easy access to the keyboard remains the only obstacle to me.

 

Best would be to have a cheap camera on it with a toggle button to superimposition of the 2 images, just the time to find your way.

Does anyone knows if this workaround exist ?   

Edited December 17, 2016 by MadisonV44

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

How many keys do you need during flight?

 

Critical ones on the throttle and stick (combat) - the rest, you learn where the key is on the keyboard without looking.

If you are short on joystick buttons, then use some additional software that will give you the equivalent of a shift button (doubling the button count) on your stick if it lacks one.

Best would be to have a cheap camera on it with a toggle button to superimposition of the 2 images, just the time to find your way.

Does anyone knows if this workaround exist ?   

 

 

Like this?

 

[Rolling_Thunder]

You will never be able to map the key on your sticks and throttle.

Easy access to the keyboard remains the only obstacle to me.

 

Best would be to have a cheap camera on it with a toggle button to superimposition of the 2 images, just the time to find your way.

Does anyone knows if this workaround exist ?   

 

The vive has a built in camera. I use it to spy on my wife while she spies on me

[Jade_Monkey]

You will never be able to map the key on your sticks and throttle.

Easy access to the keyboard remains the only obstacle to me.

 

Best would be to have a cheap camera on it with a toggle button to superimposition of the 2 images, just the time to find your way.

Does anyone knows if this workaround exist ?   

 

 

100% of the keys I need are bound to my hotas. I dont use the keyboard for anything and i dont use Shift for different functions on the same button on the HOTAS.

What stick do you have?

[ZnarF]

Do you mean Samsung Gear VR for Galaxy phones series?

LOL. To me it's waste of good time fun to not play this game in traditional monitor. 

@Tomcat: Glad to see you're happy with your monitor. You didn't answered to me, which VR headset did you try?

 

 

 

Implementing VR was not a matter of adding some VR code to the game. In order to implement VR they explained that they had to upgrade THE ENTIRE GAME ENGINE to DX11 first. You dont do that in less than a week.

 

@Jade Monkey: True, of course. But a bit sad that now that Dx11 is nearly done, VR support isn't really a priority, and is anew postponed. That reminds me 2013...  

Edited December 17, 2016 by ZnarF

[Urra]

@Tomcat: Glad to see you're happy with your monitor. You didn't answered to me, which VR headset did you try?

 

 

 

 

@Jade Monkey: True, of course. But a bit sad that now that Dx11 is nearly done, VR support isn't really a priority, and is anew postponed. That reminds me 2013...

Not sure why you said it's not priority, the team wants to provide it. Jason has repeated several times that it will be coming sooner rather then later after dx11. Where did he say it was postponed for three years from today?

[ZnarF]

Because initialy (since 2013, in fact), VR was said to be a priority [that was why I bought the game... "VR support is coming"], but in last DD, it was said that finally, some other things have to be studied before: enhancement of 3d sea for Kuban, etc etc etc... so "maybe at the end of winter" [confer to the DD]. Ok, the exact modelisation of the left suspension of a MIG 3 produced the week after 2nd may 1941 is extremely important, but..... some simers here simply don't play any longer because their device/VR is not supported. So, yes, I complain because we don't want to be forgot. And it's the futur. Anew, what would be the reaction here if the TrackIR would not longer be supported? That maybe helps to understand our feeling...

 

We should add that VR is a totaly new market, with still mostly more short demos than AAA games at this moment (but that comes! Fallout 4 VR.... ^^). Many VR early adopters are searching for wonderful experience with their wallet, and BoX could precisely be one. Don't forget that a part of that market (I'm one of them) should be ok to pay and help to sustain....your favorite sim.

Edited December 18, 2016 by ZnarF

[216th_Jordan]

The guys working on Dx11 are also working hardcore on implementing VR. You are being quite rude here. MiG-3 suspension does not interfere with VR development.

 

VR would have come a lot earlier if Oculus would not have made their API dx11 only (the said it would be compatible to dx9 before)

Edited December 18, 2016 by 216th_Jordan

[sinned]

Though I concur on ur point - relatively longer time for a commercial dev delivers a promised feature to consumers, I disagree the view on VR support not being a priority.

 

Jason and his team have been giving continous and frequent updates on VR support as well as DX11 upgrade. DX11 upgrade (a very big project) was driven to primarily to support VR. It is going to be released tomorrow. Jason also has a permanent post in this forum regarding their commitment on VR support explaining what happens when a feature like VR is developed in haste and that they will work on this more prudently with proper development of backbone platform (dx 11).

 

I can see ur frustration. I bot bos on back of 3 monitor support feature confirmation. It is not truly 3 support. I cannot use bomb sights and stats in multi (tab) doesnt work. That said, i am still glad i have a committed and talented dev delivering a high quality sim that no other commercial dev is doing. Hopefully dx 11 provides a good ground base to support many of these features.

[Habu]

For me, going back to trackir and my monitor, after BoS stopped working with my vive lasted all of 2 minutes. It's just not the same. It really isn't. I'm not a poet, I'm not capable of waxing lyrical all I can say is until you try it you don't really know. For me, on a traditional monitor this is a game, with VR this is a simulation. It is night an day, Apple's and oranges. I hope VR support is a high priority, I hope VR prices drops so all can experience it.

Hi,

after reading many post about vive and Rift in simulator, it seems that rift is better for reading the cockpit instrument. But rift doesn't have a camera allowing to see the keyboard. What's your feeling about reading cockpit instrument with the vive ?

 

For those who complain about VR not support, if you have that technologie, you should know the limitation, that without DX11 engine the rift can't work because the rift drivers are locked to DX11. Only Vive can work with none DX11 game (and not all), but the VR will be better in DX11. So Suporting VR without a DX11 engine has non sens because it can't work. The first step to support VR is to change the engine to a DX11 engine. Making a new engine take many time and ressource. So once the DX11 is done, you can work on how works VR in game and search bug and correct them. I invite you to listen the TS interview from Jason and Han, where they talk about VR, and you see that VR in the to do list.

Edited December 18, 2016 by Habu

[ZnarF]

Concerning your choice, having both Rift(+Touch) and Vive: actually Vive has a slightly larger roomscale tracking zone and is almost impossible to get faulty (good for roomscale experience), Rift has slightly better controllers. The Rift gave me a slightly better experience in VR in War Thunder with the same config (more lag), but that was subjective and is maybe corrected today. So, the 2 VR headset are very similar and excellent products. Don't worry with the keyboard, as other said, HOTAS is the key (and if you still need more keys, Razer Orbweaver or similar could do the job). A new today possibility for siming is the Pimax 4K, but it has only 3DOF - that could be fiddled with adding a sort of trackIR with 1:1 move - maybe someone tried it here?

 

Yes Habu, I wish VR support is not forgot as a priority!

Edited December 18, 2016 by ZnarF

[ZnarF]

Oh, I forgot: Rift have earphones included in the set that automatically goes on your ear once you wear the headset. That's great!!

[MadisonV44]

How many keys do you need during flight?

 

 

Not so much keys ...  the problem not necessarily happens in combat it can happens during the whole flight, so there are potentially a lot of combinations 

 

The global idea is not having to remove the headset which represents a long interruption while you are not anymore in the game.

This could be to find a keystroke, come back quickly to the Desktop to re-lauch TrackIR, check whos is calling on the phone, grab my cup of coffee ...    

 

The vive has a built in camera. I use it to spy on my wife while she spies on me

 

How do you toggle game & camera views ? Is it a built in function in the Vive ? 

 

100% of the keys I need are bound to my hotas. I dont use the keyboard for anything and i dont use Shift for different functions on the same button on the HOTAS.

What stick do you have?

Good news for you Jade but unfortunately I use CH Fighterstick & Pro Throttle and its almost impossible to map all my keys without programming the Shift functions through the CH control manager ... but I would like to avoid this (not really well documented, and quite tricky).

 

Anyway as explained above its not only for keystroke purpose. I just want to avoid putting the VR On and Off my head to interact with anything outside the game. 

[JG4_Sputnik]

The shame is, that 777 used an engine for BoS that was already old when they started. Now DX11 is such a big task. And for VR a cklckpit also would be nice. And if you've seen the DCS Normandie trailer you can imagine that competition is on.

If the only could have worked with the CloD engine to further support the franchise... but alas. It is how it is.

 

I hope VR support comes before the end of winter, there's so much potential there, and you have many planes here that you could fly in VR that you can't find anywhere else (especially bombers!). I also hope that DX11 will lift the engine to a contemporary standard eventually. 

[DD_Arthur]

The shame is, that 777 used an engine for BoS that was already old when they started.

 

If the only could have worked with the CloD engine to further support the franchise... but alas. It is how it is.

 

 

Lol. You mean the broken, never worked in the first place and now ten year old CLoD engine?  Uh ha.

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

 

 

How do you toggle game & camera views ? Is it a built in function in the Vive ?

 

Built-in, either button on a controller, or a button on the headset.

Usually the camera image is attached to one of your controllers.

 

There is also the wireframe camera view, but that probably only good for finding your beer or keyboard, not reading keys.

Example of this mode is below.

 

[JG4_Sputnik]

Lol. You mean the broken, never worked in the first place and now ten year old CLoD engine?  Uh ha.

 

 

Yup! Then we'd have a ten year old engine with multi layer high-res textures instead of a 16 year old DX9 engine.

 

But I don't think we need to discuss that further, about ghost trees and such, that fight has been fought a dozen times.

As I said, it is what it is but it could have been better (in a perfect world).

 

PS: The CloD engine works now ;-)

[Rolling_Thunder]

Hi,

after reading many post about vive and Rift in simulator, it seems that rift is better for reading the cockpit instrument. But rift doesn't have a camera allowing to see the keyboard. What's your feeling about reading cockpit instrument with the vive ?

 

For those who complain about VR not support, if you have that technologie, you should know the limitation, that without DX11 engine the rift can't work because the rift drivers are locked to DX11. Only Vive can work with none DX11 game (and not all), but the VR will be better in DX11. So Suporting VR without a DX11 engine has non sens because it can't work. The first step to support VR is to change the engine to a DX11 engine. Making a new engine take many time and ressource. So once the DX11 is done, you can work on how works VR in game and search bug and correct them. I invite you to listen the TS interview from Jason and Han, where they talk about VR, and you see that VR in the to do list.

I can read cockpit instruments no problem. There seems to be a view that using VR is like looking underwater without a diving mask. It's not. It's a lower resolution, that everyone knows. I would say, and I will test this today, that if one were to set BoS to the lowest resolution and make it full screen that may give you an idea of the quality of VR. I will test that today and let you know. One needs to lean forward to read some text, for sure.

I, and others, are well aware of the need for DX11 for VR support. What I was saying, I'm sorry if I wasn't clear, was that I hope VR support was a high priority once DX11 was supported. I would hope it would be a higher priority than another set of collector aircraft. VR support will produce more revenue than a couple of aircraft due to the new customers that VR will bring. In a couple of years VR headsets will improve and prices will drop. It is worth supporting the technology because it is, in my opinion, perfect for flight simulations.

[DD_Arthur]

PS: The CloD engine works now ;-)

 

Sixteen years old?  Where did you dream that one up? 

 

PS: CLOD engine still does not work as intended nor anywhere near what was intended.  As a commercial product it is as the Dodo. Thats why it was abandoned.  

I don't think we need to discuss that further, about Team Fusion and such, that fight has been fought a dozen times. 

[JG4_Sputnik]

Sixteen years old?  Where did you dream that one up? 

 

PS: CLOD engine still does not work as intended nor anywhere near what was intended.  As a commercial product it is as the Dodo. Thats why it was abandoned.  

I don't think we need to discuss that further, about Team Fusion and such, that fight has been fought a dozen times. 

 

Because it was Dx9 which was released in 2002. It's not quite accurate, I know. But it's certainly older than the other. Cause when I look at some textures... *bluach*. Also the towns in comparison to other sims *double bluach*.

 

But ok, let's wait together for DX11 and hope it will improve substantially. I'm looking forward to it, who knows what kind of improvements are possible!

 

BTW what is "3D water" and why should we care?

[Beazil]

BTW what is "3D water" and why should we care?

 

3d water - water with actual depth.  Boats float on it.  Planes crash in it.  Submarines submerge in it.  Torpedos glide through it.

 

Without depth, water is just a surface with nothing under it.  There is no depth, and it has none of the properties of water - buoyancy, etc.

 

That's my interpretation anyway.

[DD_Arthur]

 

But ok, let's wait together for DX11 and hope it will improve substantially. I'm looking forward to it, who knows what kind of improvements are possible!

 

BTW what is "3D water" and why should we care?

 

We will wait together   3D water will be a development of this;

 

 

From the RoF channel map.  It will be a major advance on what we have at present and I would imagine there will be implications for the application of VR in the game.  Hence the engineering of the new map technology will preceed by a few weeks the implimentation of VR support. 

Edited December 18, 2016 by DD_Arthur

[JG4_Sputnik]

3d water - water with actual depth.  Boats float on it.  Planes crash in it.  Submarines submerge in it.  Torpedos glide through it.

 

Without depth, water is just a surface with nothing under it.  There is no depth, and it has none of the properties of water - buoyancy, etc.

 

That's my interpretation anyway.

 

But we already have this in BoS...`? I think it will be a new feature in the future? 

 

 

We will wait together   3D water will be a development of this;

 

 

From the RoF channel map.  It will be a major advance on what we have at present and I would imagine there will be implications for the application of VR in the game.  Hence the engineering of the new map technology will preceed by a few weeks the implimentation of VR support. 

 

Thanks