VR support

[D_Konig]

Sorry if this has been covered somewhere but I cant find any recent info.

 

Whats the status on VR support for this and BOM?

[Saurer]

Sorry if this has been covered somewhere but I cant find any recent info.

 

Whats the status on VR support for this and BOM?

 

Dx 11 should be available at in the next patch, that befor chrismas I think. 

If it will already contain full VR support I don't know

[Dakpilot]

Waiting for DX11 engine upgrade for BoS/BoM/BoK, which is in testing now and due to be released relatively soon, VR support will then be much easier to implement

 

See Dev Diary #139

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/168-developer-diary/?p=408276

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[D_Konig]

Perfect! Can't wait, thanks guys

[ShamrockOneFive]

Keep in mind... DX11 upgrade is probably just the first (big) step towards enhanced VR support. We'll likely get the engine update before the end of the year but expect VR support to gradually get better through the first half of 2017 is my honest guess. Still, its very exciting!

[Scarface1]

i'm going to wait a few years for vr.

[LLv24_Zami]

i'm going to wait a few years for vr.

 

Same here. Not enough resolution to play without icons is a no go for me.

[Jade_Monkey]

Keep in mind... DX11 upgrade is probably just the first (big) step towards enhanced VR support. We'll likely get the engine update before the end of the year but expect VR support to gradually get better through the first half of 2017 is my honest guess. Still, its very exciting!

I agree. I'm sure the first DX patch may include basic support for all devices and then they will tweak some things to improve the VR experience.

 

Im waiting for the VR 2.0 for better resolution and (hopefully) better prices for VR devices.

[Tomsk]

Same here. Not enough resolution to play without icons is a no go for me.

 

I don't have any issues playing War Thunder in VR without icons ... but War Thunder is good for VR (not so good for other things ...).

[Gambit21]

How will we hit the right keys when blinded by VR?

I can memorize the keys on my stick, but there's plenty of times I need the keyboard.

[kissklas]

How will we hit the right keys when blinded by VR?

I can memorize the keys on my stick, but there's plenty of times I need the keyboard.

I got a throttle full of hatswitches and buttons just for that purpose. With the rift you can sort of see the keyboard through the nose gap, but the best is to have all controls mapped to left and right hand.

[II./JG77_Manu*]

 

 

Im waiting for the VR 2.0 for better resolution and (hopefully) better prices for VR devices.

I seriously doubt that the first 2k/4k VR headsets will have lower prices at launch then first generation. They have to amortize their R&D costs, that's surely not done with first gen, on top of that they will have (even) higher production costs. 

[Jade_Monkey]

I managed to bind all the keys (that I use at least) in the X55 HOTAS without using a shift key.

 

I have mapped all the oil and water rads to the same keys but that's because im lazy, not for a lack of keys.

[Brano]

Laziness is the mother of progress!

[ZnarF]

Don't worry for the keys, VR+HOTAS is fine. Concerning the resolution, the SuperSampling (increasing of res.) gives incredible results on VR head sets, really increasing the rendering: easily readable gauge, overall quality....but requiring brutal GPU power.

[D_Konig]

I recall someone bringing up this keyboard visibility issue before and it was either vive or oculus that said you can tilt your head down slightly and see through a slot in the bottom of the mask easy enough.

 

I dont know though ive never seen one in person.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Don't worry for the keys, VR+HOTAS is fine. Concerning the resolution, the SuperSampling (increasing of res.) gives incredible results on VR head sets, really increasing the rendering: easily readable gauge, overall quality....but requiring brutal GPU power.

Do you tested it yourself regards easily readable guages ect? I did and there is no magic just little bit better, i can say that today's vr are not good enough to play games with complicated objects and shapes because all that looks mesy. You have few minutes of wow scale effect but that's it. Games with simple geometric shapes and not very detailed objects are enjoyable in vr . Those games are made specific for VR. Edited December 1, 2016 by 307_Tomcat

[Gambit21]

I recall someone bringing up this keyboard visibility issue before and it was either vive or oculus that said you can tilt your head down slightly and see through a slot in the bottom of the mask easy enough.

 

I dont know though ive never seen one in person.

 

I would need that.

I've always preferred a simple twist stick, and I only have so many buttons...even then I need the Ctrl and Shift keys on the keyboard, and still

use the keyboard for brakes and a few other things.

[ZnarF]

Do you tested it yourself regards easily readable guages ect? I did and there is no magic just little bit better, i can say that today's vr are not good enough to play games with complicated objects and shapes because all that looks mesy. You have few minutes of wow scale effect but that's it. Games with simple geometric shapes and not very detailed objects are enjoyable in vr . Those games are made specific for VR.

(yes, I tested a bit, approx. 300h partaged among Dk2, Vive, then mostly CV1, at the point I can't sim today without VR!!) That's curious you didn't have a nice experience with SuperSampling, wich headset did you try? Some Aerofly FS2 planes have an incredible render in VR (but the soft lacks actually other important aspects) - the res. and screen door effects were no problem at all....still praying for such a quality in BoX!

 

(and, there is already a 4k headset, named "Pimax 4k", but is only 3DoF)

Edited December 2, 2016 by ZnarF

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

I can't understand how easily you interchange physical properties of HDMs and software.

 

(yes, I tested a bit, approx. 300h partaged among Dk2, Vive, then mostly CV1, at the point I can't sim today without VR!!) That's curious you didn't have a nice experience with SuperSampling, wich headset did you try? Some Aerofly FS2 planes have an incredible render in VR (but the soft lacks actually other important aspects) - the res. and screen door effects were no problem at all....still praying for such a quality in BoX!

 

(and, there is already a 4k headset, named "Pimax 4k", but is only 3DoF)

I can't understand how easily you interchange physical properties of HDMs and software.

 

Firstly "SuperSampling" as you named it  can't produce higher resolution. Games usually use one render to draw scene so it can't be true that  "Some Aerofly FS2 planes have an incredible render in VR". Many ppl loudly are saying that resolution and screen door effect are the are the greatest weak points of today VR tech,  i agre with them.

IMHO for online fighting (DSC,WT) VR is not yet good because you can't judge properly position of enemy plane when he is in some distance from you. Well as a team we have ppl with CV1 and Vive and other vr tech and i recently asked them about thiers HMDs - they said that they are gaterring the dust after first weeks of wow.....

Any way i gonna try BoS with ground attack planes - it could be fun. If  yout primary job is not spotting contacts and fighting against enemy's planes it should be ok. 

 

BTW 4K with ~100Hz refresh rate and God knows how powerfull PC  could be diffrent story :-)

Edited December 2, 2016 by 307_Tomcat

[II./JG77_Manu*]

 

 

BTW 4K with ~100Hz refresh rate and God knows how powerfull PC  could be diffrent story

 

You don't need 100Hz refresh rate. 45 is fine with the Oculus Tech. You still need a powerful PC, but at the time those 4k VR systems get available for a reasonable prize, i guess the hardware will be fleshed out and optimized in that direction..just wait a few more years, this Tech is not running away  

[ZnarF]

@Tomcat: Yes, supersampling can produce higher perceived res., maybe that comes from "temporal AA" that Palmer Luckey spoke about (90Hz = far more than the retinian 25 Hz refresh). But beside pure technical consideration lies the mater of immersion, the sens of "being there" that doesn't exists on the flat screen - I'm sorry you didn't have a good experience - again, what was your headset? And finally, maybe VR gives a more authentic experience, ie: no superhuman zoom, no "check six by moving your head a few degrees.... more comptetitive than screen + mouse look, but maybe less competitive than screen + TrackIR, but just more authentic!! (when we ask relentlessly for realistic FM, what's the point with having unnatural seeing capabilities????????)

 

Rem: spotting is mostly a matter of an algorythm in the game, the "minimum pixel" etc

[Gambit21]

the f and j keyboard keys have some mark to type without looking at the keyboard

 

its commom to ype without looking at the keyboard, well have to get used to it

 

I've been typing without looking at the keyboard since high school.

Landing a finger off of the joystick down to the keyboard without looking is another thing altogether.

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

 

 

when we ask relentlessly for realistic FM, what's the point with having unnatural seeing capabilities????????

 

Agree completely with this statement!

 

Nothing annoys me more than watching other pilots videos on youtube and seeing ridiculous snap views for checking 6 in the perfect top rear corner of the cockpit. Wait till you get in VR and see how much harder it is to lift your butt out of the chair and turn your whole head/upper body while maneuvering.

 

With snap views like the above, you may as well have had a rear view camera setup installed in your cockpit.

[coconut]

I've been typing without looking at the keyboard since high school.

Landing a finger off of the joystick down to the keyboard without looking is another thing altogether.

 

Get one of these:

 

I have one which I use for trimming.

Edited December 3, 2016 by coconut

[No601_Swallow]

Get one of these:

 

I have one which I use for trimming.

 

And if you're one of the downtrodden left-handers? We need periferals too!   

[Gambit21]

yeah youre right landing your hand on the keyboard blindfolded is dificult to hit the right key

 

but just try to hit f1 without looking, its easy

 

some keys are easier than others

 

Yep, you're right.

A bit of practice I guess.

[marklar]

You don't need 100Hz refresh rate. 45 is fine with the Oculus Tech. You still need a powerful PC, but at the time those 4k VR systems get available for a reasonable prize, i guess the hardware will be fleshed out and optimized in that direction..just wait a few more years, this Tech is not running away

 

Have you tried flying with ASW and 45fps? I have (DCS Worlds) and it's not very pleasant experience. You get sick after 5min. It's fine when you are sitting still on a ramp or a runway but once you start rolling you can see that the animation is far from smooth. Now imagine when you are in dogfight and your head constantly going left, right, up and down. Vomiting guaranteed in 60 seconds.

[216th_Jordan]

Smoothness however has less to do with FPS. You can have a very smooth experience with 45 FPS and a rather bad one with 60 FPS. There are a lot of factors that have an effect on this. (eg. Frametime, different texture mapping speeds etc) Take a movie, it runs at 24 fps mostly and you will not be able to detect a stutter and it will feel smooth most of the time with just 24 fps.

Edited December 6, 2016 by 216th_Jordan

[marklar]

I am talking about my experience, not some theories. Turning off ASW and going back to 90fps improves smoothness significantly.

You will need about 200fps in single monitor mode if you want to have smooth experience in VR mode with the same level of details. I doubt that the current graphics engine will be able to achieve this, even after switching to dx11. But we will see.

[ram0506]

Have you tried flying with ASW and 45fps? I have (DCS Worlds) and it's not very pleasant experience. You get sick after 5min. It's fine when you are sitting still on a ramp or a runway but once you start rolling you can see that the animation is far from smooth. Now imagine when you are in dogfight and your head constantly going left, right, up and down. Vomiting guaranteed in 60 seconds.

 

I can`t confirm that. With constant 45 FPS and ASW animation and head movement is absolutely smooth in DCS. Since there is ASW I can fly whole missions of 1,5 hours without having any issues of sickness. The problem on the ground is, that frames are sometimes dropping below 45, depending on the settings. Then you get a kind of floating animation (can`t describe it better) and some jumping in animations. That surely could cause problems. But if you can maintain 45 FPS,  I can`t see any differences to 90 FPS without ASW.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Smoothness however has less to do with FPS. You can have a very smooth experience with 45 FPS and a rather bad one with 60 FPS. There are a lot of factors that have an effect on this. (eg. Frametime, different texture mapping speeds etc) Take a movie, it runs at 24 fps mostly and you will not be able to detect a stutter and it will feel smooth most of the time with just 24 fps.

Try to move at 24 fps or even at 45 and feel smooth motion in the same time. When you try sampling yours analog input - head movment, mouse input etc at that low rates you gona feel that word is falling apart. So yours argument about smooth tv or bad implemeted graphics effects are not revelant in vr or competing gamming.

Personaly i feel big diffrence going from 60 to 120hz. 60 is playable with low inputlag in most scenarios but going to 120 improves alot.

Edited December 6, 2016 by 307_Tomcat

[216th_Jordan]

Try to move at 24 fps or even at 45 and feel smooth motion in the same time. When you try sampling yours analog input - head movment, mouse input etc at that low rates you gona feel that word is falling apart. So yours argument about smooth tv or bad implemeted graphics effects are not revelant in vr or competing gamming.

Personaly i feel big diffrence going from 60 to 120hz. 60 is playable with low inputlag in most scenarios but going to 120 improves alot.

 

But that is due to other effects. Anyway if you feel it is better for you, then thats fine, there might be reasons why it looks and feels smother with double the refreshrate, but the cause is likely less from the higher picture rate. As I said, you can have a high framerate where it still stutters and a lower framerate that is absolutely smooth. Hardware might play a role here of course. (e.g. Gtx1070 produces way more fluid visuals for me than my old Gtx770 does on the same fps while moving) 

Edited December 6, 2016 by 216th_Jordan

[Jade_Monkey]

Some of the "smoothness" comes from having stable fps regardless of the number. Consistency has a big impact in all this. High volatility in the fps will destroy the immersion.

 

Obviously the higher the more fluid it will feel.

[Jade_Monkey]

... (90Hz = far more than the retinian 25 Hz refresh)...

I hope you are not implying our eyes see at 25 Hz

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

But that is due to other effects. Anyway if you feel it is better for you, then thats fine, there might be reasons why it looks and feels smother with double the refreshrate, but the cause is likely less from the higher picture rate. As I said, you can have a high framerate where it still stutters and a lower framerate that is absolutely smooth. Hardware might play a role here of course. (e.g. Gtx1070 produces way more fluid visuals for me than my old Gtx770 does on the same fps while moving) 

No do other effect, if something is broken or inefficient - and have stutters or high fluctuation of fps without any reason and if there will be 1000 fps or 45 that doesn't matter you perceive it as nonlinear and broken experience. But without anything broken 45 fps still feel worse to average player than 60 during same game play. This is fact.

 

You can make your own experiment if you have g-sync monitor and force it to 45 fps and 45 hz then switch to 60, 90 etc

Edited December 6, 2016 by 307_Tomcat

[ram0506]

I recall someone bringing up this keyboard visibility issue before and it was either vive or oculus that said you can tilt your head down slightly and see through a slot in the bottom of the mask easy enough.

 

I dont know though ive never seen one in person.

 

I can`t speak for the Vive, but with the Rift it is possible in fact. Not very comfortable, but you can use the keyboard if needed.

But when using a good HOTAS system and Voice Attack (and in the case of DCS a clickpit) you have to use the keyboard only in exceptional cases.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

I hope you are not implying our eyes see at 25 Hz

There are two distinct realm how our eyes see and what our brain feeds our conscious. Without brain postprocessing we have up to 200ms lag from left to right and jumpy image.

[ZnarF]

Of course, saying that the human eye-brain system "works" at 25 fps is a horrible simplification (we can spot a dot in a single frame at 250Hz but in the same time we merge into one continuous point a visual intermittent signal at 15Hz) - but finaly, as a 24-25Hz movie seems fluid, that's an acceptable reduction. So, the point is to send 3-4 "low-def" visual frames into one "eye-frame" to artificially increase the perceived res. ...and that works!

Edited December 7, 2016 by ZnarF

[gnomechompsky]

You rationale for saying the eye works at a maximum of 25Hz is that this is what films work at?