Nice read: News article about WW2 flight simming

[JG4_DUI]

Hi everyone,

 

Last week there was a news article about playing flight sims on the popular German online magazine STERN. The article uses Cliffs of Dover as example. Of course, it is the same with BoS and any other advanced title.

 

I think it describes the fascination of our common hobby very nicely. But judge for yourself as I might be a little bit biased with this very special article:

 

English version | German version

 

Regards

DUI

Edited November 27, 2016 by DUI

[Bando]

 

Nice

[Rolling_Thunder]

Good read indeed.

[Urra]

Nice to see BOS get a mention in the side notes.

[JG4_Henry]

Nice to see BOS get a mention in the side notes.

 

Glad you noticed that! BoS is an important game in the small sim market. I bought a copy a few month ago together with the Fw 190. From time to time I'm flying the SP campaign but I don't feel well with the setting Russia/Stalingrad/Moscow. Stalingrad stands for an slaughterhouse far beyond our imagination and not for an famous air battle. The war against Russia was different. A crime against humanity from the very start to its end fought by two brutal dictators. Personally I don't like the idea to be a part of it - even not in a game. For the same reason I've never liked the second part of "Company of Heros".

[Blooddawn1942]

And the Battle of Britain was all about honor and chivalry? I find Your point of view a little bit strange to be honest.

So what decides then if You get into a scenario or not? At least it was war back then and humans were killed. That's what usually happens in a war. Sure was there the ideological thing involved at the eastern front. No doubt. But I guess that the pacific war was equal in terms of cruelty. But that won't stop me flying Hellcats and Zeros.

At least we keep the memory alive and in some way we honor the man who fought these terrible battles.

And I'm pretty sure 98% of the fellow simmers have no political bias and fly for the cause of aeronautical fascination and are interested in history in general.

[Sokol1]

 The war against Russia... Personally I don't like the idea to be a part of it - even not in a game. For the same reason I've never liked the second part of "Company of Heros".

 

I enjoy much play as Russian in Men of War - Red Tide, make me know a bit about that "forgotten battles" in Crimea.

I would have no problem playing on the German side. As gamer always find that fixation in "be hero in Normandy's" very mehhhhh.   

 

As like play as Viet Minh in the obscure (and bad done COD copy) in

. In the other side of the hill always are other guys.

 

War is war and games, games. 

Edited December 8, 2016 by Sokol1

[71st_AH_Gamecock]

Glad you noticed that! BoS is an important game in the small sim market. I bought a copy a few month ago together with the Fw 190. From time to time I'm flying the SP campaign but I don't feel well with the setting Russia/Stalingrad/Moscow. Stalingrad stands for an slaughterhouse far beyond our imagination and not for an famous air battle. The war against Russia was different. A crime against humanity from the very start to its end fought by two brutal dictators. Personally I don't like the idea to be a part of it - even not in a game. For the same reason I've never liked the second part of "Company of Heros".

 

I dont understand your comment. So you are saying this conflict is worse than any other conflict because of the sheer number of deaths both sides caused/incurred. To quote a phrase from the American Civil War "War is Hell". War in any account is horrific and not glorious, although when viewed in a historical manner like most flight sims do somewhat you can see some beauty in it i.e. aircraft, machines, skins, etc. I'm not trying to be a smart @ss but was just trying to understand your point a bit better. ~S~

Edited December 8, 2016 by 71st_AH_Gamecock

[JG4_Henry]

And the Battle of Britain was all about honor and chivalry? I find Your point of view a little bit strange to be honest.

So what decides then if You get into a scenario or not? At least it was war back then and humans were killed. That's what usually happens in a war. Sure was there the ideological thing involved at the eastern front. No doubt. But I guess that the pacific war was equal in terms of cruelty. But that won't stop me flying Hellcats and Zeros.

At least we keep the memory alive and in some way we honor the man who fought these terrible battles.

And I'm pretty sure 98% of the fellow simmers have no political bias and fly for the cause of aeronautical fascination and are interested in history in general.

 

I was talking about my personal feelings and do not want to offend anybody. The war against Russia was if course different, it was planed as an extermination war against civilians to get "Lebensraum". Hitlers insane ultimate goal. Executed with no mercy and unbelievable brutality. This is why I don't feel well in this very setting especially as a german. Maybe its my age (51) or my education, I studied History at the University of Hamburg. I can't explain it any better but it is difficult for me to see BoS/M as what it is - just a game.There has been always this bitter taste. From a Russian point of view it is a thrilling game setting for sure, Stalingrad was the turning point of the war and they fought very brave for their motherland. That does not mean I condemn anyone playing BoS! Sure not.

[Blooddawn1942]

None felt offended. I just thought that this attitude appears a little bit undifferentiated. How do You feel about Total War:Attila? Attila is surely one of the uttermost savage tyrants who plagued mankind. I guess none actually has a problem to play this rts title.

Any game with Wild West setting would be clearly prohibited.

I'm more then aware what happened back then in the East. You won't find a family in Russia or Germany who hasn't suffered losses in this tragedy. The more I see the necessity to keep the memory present.

[JG4_Henry]

I think you get me wrong. I don't have problems with war games in general. But: As a german I find it difficult to have "fun" in a game with this particular eastern front setting. And I am not happy with that. I like flying the Ju 87 Kanonenvogel or my all time favourite the Ju 88 A4. Ad of course the Fw 190 (but not in its current state).

[J2_Trupobaw]

And the Battle of Britain was all about honor and chivalry? I find Your point of view a little bit strange to be honest.

So what decides then if You get into a scenario or not? At least it was war back then and humans were killed. That's what usually happens in a war. Sure was there the ideological thing involved at the eastern front. No doubt. But I guess that the pacific war was equal in terms of cruelty. But that won't stop me flying Hellcats and Zeros.

At least we keep the memory alive and in some way we honor the man who fought these terrible battles.

And I'm pretty sure 98% of the fellow simmers have no political bias and fly for the cause of aeronautical fascination and are interested in history in general.

 

First, Battle of Britain was one of closest things IRL to air fighting for its own sake - rather than air fighting to support ground offensives or other goals. Two air forces trying to bleed each other out rather than playing supporting role. Only the later Circus operations over the same Channel got closer to having good ol' airquake IRL. What's not to romantize here if air combat is what you're interested in?

 

Second, as WW2 goes Battle of Britain was close to pre-Napoleonic idea of war (itself coming straight from chivalry) - small forces of specialists (pilots) fighting each other with minimal impact on life of civilians, rather than big forces conscripted from civilian populations deliberately used as cannon fodder. Of course, some civilians still got bombed, but any other battle fought over Kent involving ground forces would no doubt end with much greater destruction and cost in lives. Bombing of defended cities with AAA, troops, military supplies, military industry etc was actually allowed by laws and customs of war, and there was little to none deliberate targeting of civilians during BoB, especially for WW2 standards. And, compared to destruction in Stalingrad alone, bombings during BoB look like business as usual.

 

Third, as WW2 goes  there were few war crimes commited during BoB (or indeed, little potential for war crimes) and PoWs were treated fairly by both sides. Even the German treatment of occupied northern France was as fair as German occupation during WW2 could go, and British regime was outright likable and worth fighting for. 

 

Eastern Front lacks all these qualities - air combat may be the same, but everything else is much dirtier. BoB was a jousting tournament compared to Eastern Front.

Edited December 9, 2016 by Trupobaw

[Dakpilot]

I guess you can really only consider that, if you would say that the Battle of Britain lasted from 10 July 1940 to early August 1940 (May 41)

 

But to most, the 57 straight days of bombing of London are included in BoB, and there was still plenty of bombing going on prior to 7 september with 100's of large raids from August 1940 on non military targets such as tyre factories etc., at least I don't consider a Dunlop worker in Birmingham a combatant, 200 bombers 23rd Aug 1940 Dunlop Tyre factory raid, all this before the directive to attack military airfields

 

see 5.3.2

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Britain

 

With 2 million homes destroyed in UK and 60% of all houses in London, it wasn't all tea and sauerkraut over Kent  

 

but I sort of get your point  

 

Cheers Dakpilot 

[J2_Trupobaw]

Well, nothing is clearly cut here, this is WW2 we are talking about. I still think an average citizen of Stalingrad, Breslau, Leningrad or Berlin during the respective siege would gladly swap places with citizen of London in 1940. (And tyres are war materiel important for enemy logistics).

 

I wonder what was the treatment and casualties among civilians on  African Theatre; I never hear of them, but don't know whether it's because the local civilians and foreign armies fighting in their country stayed away from each other, or because no one bothers to mention civilian casualties there.

[Blooddawn1942]

First, Battle of Britain was one of closest things IRL to air fighting for its own sake - rather than air fighting to support ground offensives or other goals. Two air forces trying to bleed each other out rather than playing supporting role. Only the later Circus operations over the same Channel got closer to having good ol' airquake IRL. What's not to romantize here if air combat is what you're interested in?

 

Second, as WW2 goes Battle of Britain was close to pre-Napoleonic idea of war (itself coming straight from chivalry) - small forces of specialists (pilots) fighting each other with minimal impact on life of civilians, rather than big forces conscripted from civilian populations deliberately used as cannon fodder. Of course, some civilians still got bombed, but any other battle fought over Kent involving ground forces would no doubt end with much greater destruction and cost in lives. Bombing of defended cities with AAA, troops, military supplies, military industry etc was actually allowed by laws and customs of war, and there was little to none deliberate targeting of civilians during BoB, especially for WW2 standards. And, compared to destruction in Stalingrad alone, bombings during BoB look like business as usual.

 

Third, as WW2 goes  there were few war crimes commited during BoB (or indeed, little potential for war crimes) and PoWs were treated fairly by both sides. Even the German treatment of occupied northern France was as fair as German occupation during WW2 could go, and British regime was outright likable and worth fighting for. 

 

Eastern Front lacks all these qualities - air combat may be the same, but everything else is much dirtier. BoB was a jousting tournament compared to Eastern Front.

 

Well, You summarize nothing new to me. I really don´t need history lessons. The Point is, I find Henrys point of view a little bit off, but I have absolutely no problem to respect it. I´m sure that he is a very nice guy because I really like his posts over there on the ATAG forums.