BF 109 20mm ammo counter

[E4GLEyE]

This always bugs me, why does the 20mm ammo counter "restart" when it first runs dry? is it a bug or a feature? :D I mean it looks wrong that from 0 it just jumps up to full ammo ... when I am at half of the reserve.

[LukeFF]

It's a feature. It was designed to cycle around that way.

[Finkeren]

Completely historical. It is as it should be.

[E4GLEyE]

hmm, good to know thanks for the info! 

[Finkeren]

I suppose I could give a bit more detailed explanation: 

 

The company that manufactured the ammunition counters made three different versions: One that counted to 100, one that counted to 500 and one that counted to 1000. The Messerschmitt designers had to choose between using the one that counted to 500 to measure the 200 rounds of cannon ammunition or use a 100-counter that would run through twice. They opted for the second option, because it would make it easier for the pilot to see exactly how much ammo he had left. If the counter shows 50 rounds left, you should be able to remember if you've fired around 50 or around 150 shots.

 

You can see the difference in the Bf 109 cockpit, if you look at the ammo counters, the ones on the left and right (which count the 500 rounds of the MGs) have small notches on the side dividing into 5 segments each representing 100 rounds, the one in the middle that counts to 100 is divided into 10 segments each representing 10 rounds.

 

In the Fw 190 cockpit, you can see a different setup. It uses the 1000 round counters for the MGs and the 500-counter to count the 240 shells for the inner cannons, which is why the counters start out a little less than half full. 

[Asgar]

It's a feature. It was designed to cycle around that way.

one more thing to add to that as to not confuse people. it's designed that way in the game. in reality the counter wouldn't cycle automatically but had to be reset manually by the pilot

[Finkeren]

one more thing to add to that as to not confuse people. it's designed that way in the game. in reality the counter wouldn't cycle automatically but had to be reset manually by the pilot

Really? I actually didn't know that. That's kinda inconvenient for the pilot. He'd have to reset at exactly the right point, or the second round of counting would be practically useless.

Edited November 17, 2016 by Finkeren

[Asgar]

From what i've read yes, the counters are not made to cycle. and i don't think the second round of counting would be useless. just less precise. but it still gives you an idea of how much ammo you have left. 
 

[Finkeren]

From what i've read yes, the counters are not made to cycle. and i don't think the second round of counting would be useless. just less precise. but it still gives you an idea of how much ammo you have left. 

 

 

Ugh, that just seems to carry a huge risk of human error. Suppose the pilot has been chasing a target for a while, giving off burst after burst. Suddenly he looks at the counter and goes "Oh scheisse, the counter has reached zero" but how many rounds has he fired since then? 10? 50? The next round of counting would be useless to him.

 

I f he has been firing his MGs together with the cannon, which would normally be the case, I guess he could look at the counter for the MGs, if he had a general idea of how much ammo would be left in the MGs, when the cannon ammo was exhausted. but otherwise, he'd be screwed. 

[Aap]

That sounds really inconvenient indeed. I would definitely prefer to have a 500-counter that is 2/5 full rather than having to reset counter after 100 rounds in the middle of a fight.

[Finkeren]

It totally undercuts the whole reasoning behind choosing the 2x100 counter in the first place: To be able to track your ammo supply more accurately.

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

That sounds really inconvenient indeed. I would definitely prefer to have a 500-counter that is 2/5 full rather than having to reset counter after 100 rounds in the middle of a fight.

As would I. Incredibly inconvenient to have to reset it.

[Matt]

It resets automatically.

[Finkeren]

It resets automatically.

In the sim yes. We were talking about RL.

[Czar66]

Ugh, that just seems to carry a huge risk of human error. Suppose the pilot has been chasing a target for a while, giving off burst after burst. Suddenly he looks at the counter and goes "Oh scheisse, the counter has reached zero" but how many rounds has he fired since then? 10? 50? The next round of counting would be useless to him.

...

Maybe at the time it was usual for fighter pilots to track down remaining ammo by how much fire time he/she had shot at that flight. Just like WWI.

 

Common practice could be below 50% of the next count if the pilot certainly knew he had fired more than 2 or 3 seconds the cannon without resetting, he would consider a very low ammo left.

 

I don't believe ammo count in a analog device were >as big of a deal< as today in a digital age, where we are used to track down ammunition on jet fighters or whatever else we check displays to.

 

By the way, Russian fighters even have ammo counter? :s never came across that one.

 

Fun note: in my il-2 1946 days (also in Battle of Britain sim/game days), I had no idea where to look to know how much ammo I had left, so I made sure to get used on how many seconds of laying iron into the air my aircraft type were capable. Frequently when I ran from an engagement I would test how much time my plane had left on fire time, usually where close to 3 seconds. Of course, nothing 'professionally' done, and this would fail among too much excitement.

Edited November 17, 2016 by Czar66

[Matt]

In the sim yes. We were talking about RL.

I'm talking about RL too.

[simplyjames]

I think it resets automatically in RL but you have to set it in the first place manually. Thats how the k4 is in DCS at least.

[Gunsmith86]

I think it resets automatically in RL but you have to set it in the first place manually. Thats how the k4 is in DCS at least.

right

[Asgar]

well, the DCS K-4 doesn't reset, because it only has 65 shots (MK 108)

[9./JG27golani79]

The K-4 in DCS doesn´t count cannon ammo - only MG.

And it doesn´t reset itself if the counter reaches zero.

[Asgar]

haven't flown it in a while...does it only have 2 counters?

[Gunsmith86]

If i am not wrong than the counter starts itself again with the first move of the gun after it shows empty since we have 200 rounds and the counter is able to show 100 of them it restarts once and ends when all ammo is shot. If we would have only 150 rounds for the gun than the counter would show still 50 rounds left when oure gun is empty because it starts with 100 again which is more than we would have. To show only 50 rounds we would have to set the counter manualy to that position.

[9./JG27golani79]

haven't flown it in a while...does it only have 2 counters?

Yes - there are only 2 counters.

[Yogiflight]

Was already in old 1946 modelled this way.