New Yak

[Trooper117]

You just reminded me to get a glass of '19 Crimes'... cheers!

[Grancesc]

It looks beautiful and a dream to fly it. You can feel that its developer has completely identified himself with the aircraft and his task to simulate it. I would wish that other planes in this sim series would get so much love .

[216th_Jordan]

It looks beautiful and a dream to fly it. You can feel that its developer has completely identified himself with the aircraft and his task to simulate it. I would wish that other planes in this sim series would get so much love .

 

Other planes have gotten much love too, but also this model is known to behave well in reality  

[Gavrick]

In real life max speed test performed with radiator flap set 'by airflow', that corresponds ingame 50%/35% for oil/water radiators.
IRL data for Yak-1 s127 - max speed at 4km altitude - 591 kph TAS, ingame - 490kph IAS / 599kph TAS.   8 kph or 1.3% TAS mistake.
IRL data for Yak-1 s127 - max speed at 6km altitude - 572 kph TAS, ingame - 436kph IAS / 594kph TAS. 22 kph or 3.8% TAS mistake.
Where is "50-40 kph mistake"?

[303_Kwiatek]

Reported IAS for 1b is 444 kph (it is possible to fly at lower radiator settings) so maximum possible speed is much higher then should be possible irl. It give 620 kph TAS so it is about 50 kph faster

 

It also happend with Yak1 which got similar overspeed, Lagg3 which is also overspeed but with less degree and F4 (although some German data claim 670 kph TAS but probably it is without compresibility correction so probably F4 maxium speed at 1.4 Ata should be about 650 kph - still in game is only possible by 1 minut before engine broke)

Edited November 17, 2016 by 303_Kwiatek

[=FB=VikS]

Reported IAS for 1b is 444 kph (it is possible to fly at lower radiator settings) so maximum possible speed is much higher then should be possible irl. It give 620 kph TAS so it is about 50 kph faster

 

It also happend with Yak1 which got similar overspeed, Lagg3 which is also overspeed but with less degree and F4 (although some German data claim 670 kph TAS but probably it is without compresibility correction so probably F4 maxium speed at 1.4 Ata should be about 650 kph - still in game is only possible by 1 minut before engine broke)

Test data from NII VVS are taken with radiators by airflow (and most of tests as well), and as Gavrick noted - it had an error by 3,8% (+22kmh)/6km alt when taken with same (by airflow) radiator settings.

It also happend with Yak1 which got similar overspeed, Lagg3 which is also overspeed but with less degree and F4 (although some German data claim 670 kph TAS but probably it is without compresibility correction so probably F4 maxium speed at 1.4 Ata should be about 650 kph - still in game is only possible by 1 minut before engine broke)

"similar" overspeed? 50 = 22?

[Finkeren]

Reported IAS for 1b is 444 kph (it is possible to fly at lower radiator settings) so maximum possible speed is much higher then should be possible irl. It give 620 kph TAS so it is about 50 kph faster

I've tried several different IAS/CAS to TAS calculators now and not a single one of them says 444km/h = 620km/h at 6000m under normal atmospheric conditions and 15 degrees centigrade. The results I get are in the 590 - 600 range.

 

Care to share how you did that calculation?

Edited November 17, 2016 by Finkeren

[TWC_Ace]

What if one plane has +22 kmh of error in speed and the plane on the other side has -22 kmh error in the speed. Than, its not so small error.

Again, we are talking about relative performances between planes which counts in the fight.

Edited November 17, 2016 by blackram

[II./JG77_Manu*]

 

 

I've tried several different IAS/CAS to TAS calculators now and not a single one of them says 444km/h = 620km/h at 6000m under normal atmospheric conditions and 15 degrees centigrade. The results I get are in the 590 - 600 range. Care to share how you did that calculation?

Just use the grid method, and you get the true value, no need to use some calculators, that will never give the true air speed. Use map grids, fly 40km, clock the time. Should be around 0,1% error at max, when you can time your stopwatch within +/- 0,2s (which is no problem even for children in sport).

 

What if one plane has +22 kmh of error in speed and the plane on the other side has -22 kmh error in the speed. Than, its not so small error.

Again, we are talking about relative performances between planes which counts in the fight.

 

Even 22kph alone is a huge difference..imagine the forum outburst, if the 109 would fly 550 at ground level, instead of 527. 

[303_Kwiatek]

TAS depend which calculator you use. But there is no metter if you used the same calculation for all planes IAS ---- relative performacne will be the same.

 

I used these simple calculator

 

http://www.csgnetwork.com/tasinfocalc.html

 

For German planes it work good -  TAS is very accurate comparing to RL data ( example Fw 190 or G-2).

 

Back to Yak why IRL wasnt used little lower radiator settings to achive better speed? Overheating engine problem?  If in game is possible to fly lower radiator settings and achive faster speed then IRL then something is not right.

 

For remember some issue looks here about overspeed Yak-1 69 series in BOS:

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/21030-impact-radiator-setting-yak-1-speed/

 

and here

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/15231-isa-speed-testing-all-fighters-game/

[Finkeren]

What if one plane has +22 kmh of error in speed and the plane on the other side has -22 kmh error in the speed. Than, its not so small error.

Again, we are talking about relative performances between planes which counts in the fight.

If you look at the test I did, you'll see that the contemporary German fighters are between 43km/h IAS (Bf 109F4) and 21 km/h IAS (Fw 190 A3) faster than the Yak-1B at 6000m.

 

That's a speed advantage of between 29,3 and 60 km/h.

 

If there is a +22km/h error in favor of the Yak, then there is most certainly not a -22km/h on any of the German fighters also.

[303_Kwiatek]

RL relative perofmance at 6 km between Fw 190 A-3 and Yak-1B should be

 

Fw 190 A-3 at Emergency power -  650 kph TAS

 

Yak1B at full power - 570 kph TAS

 

Difference -     80 kph TAS.

 

Using reported speed and test from BOS we got:

 

FW 190 1.42 Ata :  464 kph IAS  / 649 TAS   ( RL 650 kph)

 

Yak1B (Rads 20%)     : 444 kph IAS/ 621 TAS  ( RL 570 kph maximum possible speed)

 

Difference  - 30 kph TAS

 

Yak1 69 serie ( from BOS test Jtd) :    595 TAS  /  RL  540 TAS   ( 55 kph overspeed)

 

Difference - 55 kph /  RL difference between Yak-1 69 serie and A-3  110 kph TAS

 

Calculator IAS/TAS : http://www.csgnetwork.com/tasinfocalc.html

Edited November 17, 2016 by 303_Kwiatek

[Finkeren]

Back to Yak why IRL wasnt used little lower radiator settings to achive better speed? Overheating engine problem? If in game is possible to fly lower radiator settings and achive faster speed then IRL then something is not right.

I used 25% water rad and 35% oil rad as optimal for the test, but I ran my engine very hot. I can totally believe, that for a real life test, they would've used 35% and 50%.

 

That difference in setting will not make a big impact on the test anyway. At most you might add maybe 5 km/h by going as hot as I did.

[303_Kwiatek]

How long you could fly with radiator 20% at 6 km in Yak-1B without broke engine ( if even possible to broke)?

Edited November 17, 2016 by 303_Kwiatek

[Finkeren]

RL relative perofmance at 6 km between Fw 190 A-3 and Yak-1B should be

 

Fw 190 A-3 at Emergency power - 650 kph TAS

 

Yak1B at full power - 570 kph TAS

 

Difference - 80 kph TAS.

 

Using reported speed and test from BOS we got:

 

FW 190 1.42 Ata : 464 kph IAS / 649 TAS ( RL 650 kph)

 

Yak1B (Rads 20%) : 444 kph IAS/ 621 TAS ( RL 570 kph maximum possible speed)

 

Difference - 30 kph TAS

 

Calculator IAS/TAS : http://www.csgnetwork.com/tasinfocalc.html

The Fw 190 A3 should not be going 650 km/h at 6000m.

 

Chuckhawks (who I trust on getting stuff right) has the A3 fitted with the BMW801D doing a maximum of 395 mph (635 km/h) at 17,000ft, so the A3 should do just slightly less than that at 6000m, and lo and behold: Using the calculator I used, it does.

 

Yes, the Yak-1B is some 20-25km/h too fast, but that's about it.

[303_Kwiatek]

[Finkeren]

How long you could fly with radiator 20% at 6 km in Yak-1B without broke engine ( if even possible to broke)?

As I said: I ran it hot (warning message to "watch temperature") but I didn't overheat on 25%\35%.

 

With fully closed radiators I did overheat, and yes the engine broke like it would on the Yak-1 s.69 (it's exactly the same engine)

[II./JG77_Manu*]

The Fw 190 A3 should not be going 650 km/h at 6000m.

 

Chuckhawks (who I trust on getting stuff right) has the A3 fitted with the BMW801D doing a maximum of 395 mph (635 km/h) at 17,000ft, so the A3 should do just slightly less than that at 6000m, and lo and behold: Using the calculator I used, it does.

 

Yes, the Yak-1B is some 20-25km/h too fast, but that's about it.

 

190 A3 does 635kph at 6000m with 1.32 ata and 650 kph with 1.42ata. Thats 65 or 80 kph faster then the Yak1b.

[I./ZG1_Radick]

@303_Kwiatek dont forget the dive acceleration... this is another joke^^

[303_Kwiatek]

Fw 190 dive acceleration was better before FM uptade -  as devs said they will look for another Fw 190 revision so its hope it would be back with corrected "finess ratio" value

Edited November 17, 2016 by 303_Kwiatek

[JtD]

High altitude that should be checked is 8km and above. Gavrick, VikS, if you have the time, please check performance there. The S69 and the LaGG are both a LOT too fast there. I'd check the 1b myself, but I don't have access to BoS now and for some time to come.

[JG13_opcode]

it is possible to fly at lower radiator settings

I'm sure it was possible in RL too.

 

I think you are approaching this incorrectly: Have you tested what speeds are attainable in-game with the radiator settings as were done in the historical tests (~50% oil/35% water)?

 

For two results to be comparable they need to be at the same conditions, as I'm sure you know. Therefore comparing the max speed with closed rads to the historical data with partially-open rads doesn't tell us if the model is true to reality.

[Dr_Molem]

What if one plane has +22 kmh of error in speed and the plane on the other side has -22 kmh error in the speed. Than, its not so small error.

Again, we are talking about relative performances between planes which counts in the fight.

 

This.

[Dakpilot]

This.

 

except that it is not the case, if it were it would be a greater issue...but it is not

 

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Dr_Molem]

except that it is not the case, if it were it would be a greater issue...but it is not

 

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

So you have to wait until a new plane appear and underspeed by +20 km/h to understand that 20 km/h (be it overspeed or underspeed) is something serious ?

[Hutzlipuh]

In real life max speed test performed with radiator flap set 'by airflow', that corresponds ingame 50%/35% for oil/water radiators.

IRL data for Yak-1 s127 - max speed at 4km altitude - 591 kph TAS, ingame - 490kph IAS / 599kph TAS.   8 kph or 1.3% TAS mistake.

IRL data for Yak-1 s127 - max speed at 6km altitude - 572 kph TAS, ingame - 436kph IAS / 594kph TAS. 22 kph or 3.8% TAS mistake.

Where is "50-40 kph mistake"?

Maximum/Top speed attainable in horzontal flight is is always the top speed attained without regards to radiator settings.

If the Yak can do more then 436 kph with radiators closed in horizontal flight even just for 1 minute only (proved by flyer116 with rads at 20% and 0%) then its overspeeding...

 

Yak has a 2-stage supercharger , full throttle height around 2900m , top speeds i can find by searching the internet are all ONLY for 4000m , why should this yak keep its speed at 6000m ? it will drop off because the engine wasnt capable of delivering enough power at that altitude.there wasnt a 3rd stage for the supercharger..

 

EDIT: please show me the "official" chart for the Yak1b with the speed test...or is it "secret"?

Edited November 17, 2016 by Hutzlipuh

[JG13_opcode]

The Fw 190 A3 should not be going 650 km/h at 6000m.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/fw190a3.html

 

The Focke Wulf data for 2700 rpm (black and grey curves) show approx 650 km/h at 20000 ft.

Maximum/Top speed attainable in horzontal flight is is always the top speed attained without regards to radiator settings.

If the Yak can do more then 436 kph with radiators closed in horizontal flight even just for 1 minute only (proved by flyer116 with rads at 20% and 0%) then its overspeeding...

I think you are missing the point as well. Gavrick posted a known data point. The question we should be asking is does the Yak-1B we have in game match the historical data point, or does it not? To answer that you need to use the same radiator settings, because they affect your total drag.

Edited November 17, 2016 by JG13_opcode

[Matt]

 

 

Maximum/Top speed attainable in horzontal flight is is always the top speed attained without regards to radiator settings.

 

I can't remember reading a single source of German WW2 planes were this would be the case. I can't say i've read any Russian tests were this would be the case either.

[303_Kwiatek]

I'm sure it was possible in RL too.

 

I think you are approaching this incorrectly: Have you tested what speeds are attainable in-game with the radiator settings as were done in the historical tests (~50% oil/35% water)?

 

For two results to be comparable they need to be at the same conditions, as I'm sure you know. Therefore comparing the max speed with closed rads to the historical data with partially-open rads doesn't tell us if the model is true to reality.

I think at high altitude is more question of power requried to power avaliable then radiator setting. Yak1b cant be faster at 6km then 4km cause its supercharger is designed that way than it could achive maximum speed at about 4 km. So it cant be faster at higher alt then 4km without adding more power or significant reduce of weight. If it would be possible then maximum speed for Yak1b would be at 6km not at 4 km. So in BOS Yak1 maximum speed should be at 4 km level then with significant drop power speed should be always less. Edited November 17, 2016 by 303_Kwiatek

[3./JG15_Kampf]

All this noise at least served for something: I see several DEVs speak in the English language forum

[303_Kwiatek]

In real life max speed test performed with radiator flap set 'by airflow', that corresponds ingame 50%/35% for oil/water radiators.

IRL data for Yak-1 s127 - max speed at 4km altitude - 591 kph TAS, ingame - 490kph IAS / 599kph TAS. 8 kph or 1.3% TAS mistake.

IRL data for Yak-1 s127 - max speed at 6km altitude - 572 kph TAS, ingame - 436kph IAS / 594kph TAS. 22 kph or 3.8% TAS mistake.

Where is "50-40 kph mistake"?

Moreover using these same IAS/TAS calculation it give me results at 6 km:

Yak1b as Gavric calculated 594 kph TAS (20 kph overspeed at used radiator settings)

Fw190 A3 464 IAS - 630 TAS kph - so now 20 kph underspeed

 

Resume Yak1b +20 kph / Fw190 -20 kph underspeed - relative 40 kph error

Still Fw190 cant be faster and Yak1b could close more radiator getting another 20 kph adventage which could make possbile in game 60 kph error

 

The whole point is that some planes got overperformance at high alts (Yak1 both, Lagg3 and 109 F4) where others are much more accurate (marginal error) like A3 or G2 or La5. So high alt performance and power should be rechecked for keep accurate relative performance between all fighters

Edited November 17, 2016 by 303_Kwiatek

[LukeFF]

All this noise at least served for something: I see several DEVs speak in the English language forum

 

Not sure why that's a surprise to you, as they've been doing that for as long as this forum's been online.

[Irgendjemand]

Moreover using these same IAS/TAS calculation it give me results at 6 km:

Yak1b as Gavric calculated 594 kph TAS (20 kph overspeed at used radiator settings)

Fw190 A3 464 IAS - 630 TAS kph - so now 20 kph underspeed

 

Resume Yak1b +20 kph / Fw190 -20 kph underspeed - relative 40 kph error

Still Fw190 cant be faster and Yak1b could close more radiator getting another 20 kph adventage which could make possbile in game 60 kph error

 

The whole point is that some planes got overperformance at high alts (Yak1 both, Lagg3 and 109 F4) where others are much more accurate (marginal error) like A3 or G2 or La5. So high alt performance and power should be rechecked for keep accurate relative performance between all fighters

Thats whats been told for years now and nothing happened in that regard.

 

[3./JG15_Kampf]

Not sure why that's a surprise to you, as they've been doing that for as long as this forum's been online.

You know very well that the DEVS interact more in the Russian language forum. Surprise not see a sentence type: This is all okay, just feelings.

Here we have concrete explanations, not just feelings. You should remember the recent MIG case

[SYN_Haashashin]

Deleted my previous post because clearly I didnt know where I was...FM section. (That happens after 3 weeks of 12 hours shifts )

[LukeFF]

You know very well that the DEVS interact more in the Russian language forum. Surprise not see a sentence type: This is all okay, just feelings.

Here we have concrete explanations, not just feelings. You should remember the recent MIG case

 

You aren't making any sense. The team has been explaining things in concrete terms continually for as long as this forum has been here. They may not have been the answers you liked or at the frequency you expect, but to imply they are suddenly showing up after being absent is far from reality.

[Phenazepam]

Fw190 A3 464 IAS - 630 TAS kph - so now 20 kph underspeed

 

 

 

Resume Yak1b +20 kph / Fw190 -20 kph underspeed - relative 40 kph error

 

 

first, I measured 470 IAS - 640 TAS (for FW-190, 100% fuel, 6000 m, 1.42/2700), so not -20, but -10 kph error.

 

second, the same FW 190 at sea level has 15 kph overspeed (555 TAS in game - 540 TAS IRL, 1.42/2700), at 8 km FW 190 has at least 10 kph overspeed (655 (and continue growing) TAS to the end of the third minute in game - 645 TAS IRL, full throttle/2700).

 

I think, in your example you want to say that we did overperformanced Soviet fighters and underperformanced Axis ones. Actually it is not true. Due to complicated FM it's possible some errors, but there is no 'russian' or 'german bias'.

 

PS. We do all the best to reduce such errors.

[3./JG15_Kampf]

 

 

You aren't making any sense. The team has been explaining things in concrete terms continually for as long as this forum has been here. They may not have been the answers you liked or at the frequency you expect, but to imply they are suddenly showing up after being absent is far from reality.

 Just today I saw 4 post of 4 DEVS in the English forum. And all this posts with data and numbers (thanks), nothing about feelings. It seems that I am far from the reality?

[Asgar]

 

first, I measured 470 IAS - 640 TAS (for FW-190, 100% fuel, 6000 m, 1.42/2700), so not -20, but -10 kph error.

 

second, the same FW 190 at sea level has 15 kph overspeed (555 TAS in game - 540 TAS IRL, 1.42/2700), at 8 km FW 190 has at least 10 kph overspeed (655 (and continue growing) TAS to the end of the third minute in game - 645 TAS IRL, full throttle/2700).

 

I think, in your example you want to say that we did overperformanced Soviet fighters and underperformanced Axis ones. Actually it is not true. Due to complicated FM it's possible some errors, but there is no 'russian' or 'german bias'.

 

PS. We do all the best to reduce such errors.

 

thanks for this data and thanks for your hard work. most of us really appreciate what you guys are doing 

[Hutzlipuh]

 

first, I measured 470 IAS - 640 TAS (for FW-190, 100% fuel, 6000 m, 1.42/2700), so not -20, but -10 kph error.

 

Well did a quick test with the 190 today.... stalingrad map , autum , full fuel , 120 rnds MG/FF in the wings and i could not get over 456 kph IAS / 632 TAS at 6700 with EM-Power , where according to the ingame specs it should reach 482 IAS /667 TAS

 

thats ~30 kmh too slow....

 

what am i doing wrong here not to reach the specified speed?

thanks for posting btw...

Edited November 17, 2016 by Hutzlipuh