He 111 permanent external hardpoint prevents full internal load

[LukeFF]

The 13mm gun turret seems really cool, never ever saw it before on a He.111.

 

 

Yeah, it's a modification for later-model H-16s (specifically H-16/R1). It appears it was a late-1943 modification, as the first recorded loss of an H-16/R1 was in December 1943 (http://falkeeins.blogspot.ru/2015/05/some-unusual-camouflage-schemes-on.html). 

[Gunsmith86]

Well we are not finished yet.

We have still to proof that the HE 111 H-6 was not designed as a torpedobomber from the beginning but was converted into it later.

 

We have already heard that Hitler ordered a stop of all torpedo production on 11.28.1939 because a demonstration in 1938 on which the Luftwaffe droped torpedos deliberately at greater hight and speed than allowed ende with 41% of all torpedos droped at that day didnt work they sunk, brock on in packed whit water or were runing not straight. This they did to finaly get the development and use of this weapon under there owne controlle. But instead they convinced Hitler that this weapon was not of much use. When after the start of the war for the first time a airplane with torpedo encountered a enamy ship, which happend to be a destroyer on 11.07.1939. This encounter ended with a failure which finaly convinced Hitler that he has no use for this weapon and ordered the stop of production while development should continue until something usefull was developed.

 

This however did not stop units that were equipped with the HE 115 torpedobomber to try again and again to sink ships whit them.

One example for such a mission belowe:

HE 115 convoy attack:

When on 20.10.1940 their own reconnaissance saw a northbound convoy on the Scottish east coast, the 3rd / 506 was sent into the action in the late afternoon. Staff captain Hptm. Dyrchs lead four HE 115s into action, which were equipped for torpedo use.

Already in the summer this unit had achieved some good successes with torpedos off the English east coast.

When the four HE 115s were starting from there base on that day, none of the pilots knew that they would have a great success.

At almost complete darkness and coarse sea, with its foam and crests rising high, the four machines flew to the west, where a pallid bright glow lay over the water.

Oblt.z.S. Barth was the first to spot the convoy and announce it. There were many ships in several lines and numerous guards.

The machines had recognized the convoy so late that they had to turn for the torpedo attack once again, in order to put enough space between themselves and the ships.

When the necessary distance was reached, the four turned, and now the pilots and the bombadiers all saw the sharper and sharper outline of the ships emerging from the night.

Only a few meters above the waves, the HE 115 flew, then the best distance was reached, and almost at the same time the machines climbed up to the prescribed throw height of 35 m. Only small course corrections were necessary. Each plane had its target in sight and almost simultaneously all four commanders shouted: "Schuss!" (which means "shot!" and is the signal that the torpedois droped) And pressed on the release buttons.

The torpedoes loosened from their brackets and pushed forward into the depths. At this moment there were several flashes from steamers. The pilots pushed their airplanes down as far as they could to the water and turned off in a sudden curve. Hptm. Dyrchs heard the radio's voice: "Torpedo is running!"

Then his plane was hit, and it sank instantly through until the swimmers were only a few centimeters away from the water.

"Aircraft doesn´t fly anymore, try emergency landing!" The pilot of the HE 115 of the squadron commander.

And while still the call of the rest of the crew echoed through the cell: "higher, higher!", the machine's float was already cracking on the coarse sea. Three times, four times the HE 115 hit in the water and lifted again, that the sea sprayed up. Then she finally lowered herself and swam to the relief of all. The emergency ditching on the water had even succeeded with the side wind.

Still during the landing the torpedo of this machine hit the targeted steamer close behind the bridge. The enormous detonation had been completely ignored in the anxious seconds of the ditching. But now they saw the steamer stalled with a heavy blow, and thick black smoke sprang from a large hole behind the bridge. The chimney emitted white steam.

The other three machines had almost droped their torpedoes at the same time. The torpedo of the first airplane missed the targed closely but Oblt.z.S. Barth was more lucky. He had targeted a 6500-ton steamer. The torpedo ran exactly to it and hit midships. The steamer droped deaper into the water very quickly almost at the same time with the first ship that was hit. A explosion broke the whole ship into two parts before it sunk.

The fourth HE 115 had targeted a 5000-8000 tonner. The torpedo pounded into the middle of the steamer. Bright streaks of flame shot up from this third hit ship, and then it broke apart too and sank.

Commercial ships and escorting vehicles still attempted to shoot the four torpedo machines. They all were hit but the only one to go down was the one from the squadron commander the machine seemed lost.

The radio operator had already crawled onto the wing to clear the dinghy when the aircrafts pilot shouted: "We're going to try to start again!"

He cautiously gave gas, and the machine glided a little farther across the sea. But with the strong sea, the success of a launch was highly questionable and, in addition, it was in no way determined whether the damaged HE 115 would hold in the air. Nevertheless, Hptm. Dyrchs called the radio operator back with the inflatable boat, and the second pilot, who had flown as passanger for briefings, hurried back to his emergency seat.

"So go, in God's name!" Cried Dyrchs.

The HE 115 turned into the wind and then the aircraft pilot gave determined full throttle. The engines roared and immediately the flak fire from all ships and escort vehicles started again. MG fire barked in between.

The seaplane staggered drunkenly over the water. It was lifted high, and then slammed again with wild agitation. Inside the machine everything rolled around. Through the protruding nose of thr plane, the aircraft leader saw that the swimmer's struts were beginning to give way. In the front, the swimmers came out higher and higher, and then their tips were suddenly only 20 cm away from the rotating propellers. A little more and the propellers would shred the floats and then be torn to pieces.

Suddenly, however, the movement ceased, and the swaying and rolling of the machine disappeared.

"We are flying again!" The aircraft pilot announced. But already the HE 115 sagged again, hung only one meter over the foam crowns. But the pilot managed to keep them up and then  they climbed meter by meter higher. They turned to their home base and the E of the 3rd / 506 managed to land again in the port of Stavanger. She had done it with broken fuselage straps and two hits in the wings.

The successes achieved by the other two machines combined with that of the E together resulted in a sinking of 20,000 tons of enemy shipping. Whit that in the second half of 1940 the 3./506 alone had sunk 124,000 tons.

After landing Oblt.z.S. Barth was informed that he has just earned the knights cross because Barth had thus sunk a total of 36,000 tons of shipping.

On 14.12.1940, Karl Barth received the knight's cross. He fell on the 9th of December 1942 in the Mediterranean as a squadron commander of the 6th / KG 26.

 

 

 

 

And with some experience over time they were more and more successful. Which lead to two problems first by late 1940 the number of available torpedos droped from 129 by the end of 1939 to just 38 in september 1940. While they used up in the same month 70 of them and so far no new torpedos were produced while at the same time they proved much more successful then bombs against ships.

Second problem they needed a new plane whit more power that could be used with torpedos because the HE 115 was geting old by now and had little chance against a enamy airplane which were encountered much more often by now. This they ordered to try if it was possible to convert the new HE 111 H-5 and H-6 into torpedobombers. They also bought a large number of Italian torpedos LT F5w ( max speed 300 Km/h and max hight 100m ) which were better than the now new in germany produced improved LT F5b ( max speed 250 Km/h and max hight 40m )

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[LukeFF]

Good stuff, Gunsmith! So, did the crew control the aiming of the torpedoes with the "Einstelluhren" controls? How did this exactly work? Did the observer have another set of controls in the nose (perhaps with the Klappvisier)?

Edited November 22, 2016 by LukeFF

[Asgar]

Yeah, it's a modification for later-model H-16s (specifically H-16/R1). It appears it was a late-1943 modification, as the first recorded loss of an H-16/R1 was in December 1943 (http://falkeeins.blogspot.ru/2015/05/some-unusual-camouflage-schemes-on.html). 

R1 is a Rüstsatz, as Zeebra explained on page 1 of this thread, Rüstsätze could be applied in the field by crews on the front. it's not a later model. it's just a H-16 upgraded with a Rüstsatz 

[Chief_Mouser]

Always loved the Heinkels, idiosyncratic aircraft. Wish we had a promise of the He115 some day.

Cheers.

[Gunsmith86]

R1 is a Rüstsatz, as Zeebra explained on page 1 of this thread, Rüstsätze could be applied in the field by crews on the front. it's not a later model. it's just a H-16 upgraded with a Rüstsatz 

Not in that case to change the normal H16 into a H16/R1 you have to replace part of the fuselage which meant that you couldnt do it in the field you needed a factory to do this and most H16/R1 were build already as H16/R1

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

And, that's a wrap, folks.

 

Thank you, Gunsmith, for posting all of those excerpts.

 

 

I'd say we shouldn't concern ourselves with what is technically possible, but only what was actually done historically, and unless someone can produce evidence, that this conversion was in fact done on more than just a couple of occasions, then I think the H6 is fine as it is.

 

What about 500 occasions ??  I just stumbled in another "wrong" book.

 

 

No external racks. More evidence of two ESACs inside. 

 

 

Once again no external racks. Just reference to maximum internal payload.

 

 

Two more pictures I have found on internet saying those are H6s. Just count how many 250kg bombs nearby to be loaded. Hard to say if these two are truly H6s but just more evidences.

 

 

 

Three things before you guys start to spam the forum with manuals pages.

 

First of all, I dont know how Luftwaffe kept its manuals updated, but nowadays, changes to airplanes manuals comes, for examnple, as OEBs (Operational Engineering Bulletins). Those OEBs are, usually, single page instructions that modifies the current manuals or its procedures. OEBs can also cover from failures not detected on test flights to new equipment installation. Does anyone knows how Luftwaffe managed manuals changes?? Because manuals are updated all the time. Did you guys ever stopped to think about that you may have an old H6 manual that does not cover the 2xESAC issue.  Or that maybe this change was not implemented at all in the manual because they had some OEB like system for field mods. We cannot forget too that planes have more than one manual, especially maintenance manuals that were dedicated to ground crews. I am sorry but too many evidence everywhere. Even the plastic models manufacturers knows it: https://www.scalemates.com/kits/118218-eduard-72437-he-111h-6-bomb-bay       

 

OEB example:

http://theairlinewebsite.com/topic/390781-airbus-a330a340-oeb-operational-engineering-bulletin/

 

Second thing, I also agree that the H6 right now does not need changes. My point is that there were other loadouts options available. Lets talk about H6 changes if we come back to Afrika or North Sea, because we will need at least a torpedo mod.

 

 

Third one, if you like reading manuals and researching about the He111, lets research about what can be changed right now, like the Turret. A He111 H16 was shotdown on December with the new turret. So it probably means that the turret was available a few months earlier. Maybe we can put it on BoK "sacred" time line. Another subject is the waist guns. I found evidence that only very small number of H16 were equiped with single barrel MG81s. Most of them had MG81Zs in the waist positions.  Maybe we can change that too.

[LukeFF]

 

 

No external racks. More evidence of two ESACs inside. 

 

Could easily be a weather recon He 111, thus no need for bomb racks. 

[Gunsmith86]

The external racks were removed if the aircraft was used to tow gliders

Edited November 24, 2016 by Gunsmith86

[Lusekofte]

The H6 was perfect for Russia, The Heinkel and JU 88 never flew with full bomb load due to the lack of range. It is only in this game you could use full bomb load, with target only 10 minutes away.

Even the Stuka suffered in Russia, never meant to go far into enemy territory, they had to leave the wing mounted bombs more and more

Edited November 24, 2016 by 216th_LuseKofte

[Gunsmith86]

Two more pictures I have found on internet saying those are H6s. Just count how many 250kg bombs nearby to be loaded. Hard to say if these two are truly H6s but just more evidences. He111d.jpg He111e.jpg

 

The first picture could be a H6 but its not unusual to have more bombs near the plane than it could carry.

evidence for this belowe:

much more bombs in the background than this FW 190 could carry.

Same for the Ju 87:

 

Its not seldom to see large number of bombs lie around on small airfields near the front. Because of the fast moveing front in the early war years the bomber and fighter groups had trouble to keep up whit the units on the front which needed the support the most. Since change of a hole unit with all there equipment would take more than a day they developed a diffrent approach. The Bombers would start in the morning for there first mission from there units base after they attacked the targed they would not make the long flyth back and land on a airfield near the front line ( often just a field that could be used as an airfield ). There they would be supplied by Ju 52 or other planes frome there owne unit whit bombs and ammunition.

When the bombers land from there first mission they would move to one of the stacks with bombs were they would get rearmed for the next mission this saveing a lot of time and since the fuel of the aircrafts would now be enough for 2-4 missions they could now give support for nearly the hole day before they would return to the main base were they would be refueled for the next mission or the next day also damage could be repaired there.

 

 

In your second picture there the bombs are already under the bomber and because these are 8 SC 250 we can be quiet sure that it must be a H1, H2, H3, H14 or H16  because these are the only bombers in the HE 111 serie that could carry 8 SC 250 inside but more we cant say because we see to little of the bomber on the picture.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

If we lock close at that picture we will see that there seems to be no opening for the bomb doors at all.

On other H3 pictures we can see the closed bomb doors quiet good:

 

But on aircrafts used to tow gliders there are no bomb doors or bomb racks outside:

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Also there is a lot of evidence that HE 111 were used with bomb racks outside:

Edited November 24, 2016 by Gunsmith86

[Gunsmith86]

Once again no external racks. Just reference to maximum internal payload. He111c.jpg

 

If we look at this very basic info and we start to count how many MG 17 are on the HE 111on the drawing and what the autor writes next to it than we can already see that the autor did just a basic data summary and did not care what the HE 111 could carry exactly.

 

 

 

As you wished no manuals this time:

Edited November 24, 2016 by Gunsmith86

[Gunsmith86]

I will post more about the weapons for HE 111 H16 and the torpdeo versions tomorrow

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

Could easily be a weather recon He 111, thus no need for bomb racks. 

 

Or could be a 2xESAC configuration.  This plane was based in Norway, probably on ship hunting missions. Thus, the internal 250kg bomb configuration is the best one if you are not using torpedos and just attacking merchants on FW200 style. Anyway, 111 pictures are really hard because the plane always look  the same. The usually noticiable differences are spinners, propellers, racks and top gun. Lets keep looking for it. 

If we look at this very basic info and we start to count how many MG 17 are on the HE 111on the drawing and what the autor writes next to it than we can already see that the autor did just a basic data summary and did not care what the HE 111 could carry exactly.

 

 

 

As you wished no manuals this time:

 

I don´t really believe on people hauling 250kg bombs around and leaving it under a bomber bomb bay only to use half of the bombs.

 

I will post more about the weapons for HE 111 H16 and the torpdeo versions tomorrow

 

Nice!! I hope there is something about the turret. Because no turret in the manual means there was no turret at all following your logic   

 

 

Nothing conclusive so far based on documents and pictures beside the fact of those autors saying it was possible to have all configurations on H6. They must had done a lot of research. I got ordered two new old books on Black Friday about the 111. Those books are really interesting because covers only the technical aspects of the plane. The downside is that it will take a month to receive the books.

 

By the way, what is really conclusive so far is War Thunder H6 having 8x250kg configuration available. 

 

Lets keep looking for it 

Edited November 24, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Gielow

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

New findings:

 

Another source saying the H6 was used first as torpedo bomber and later used as a regular bomber.

 

 

 

The H4 had the internal fuel tank or bomb bay option before the H6.

If they did it interchangeable in the H4, why it is not possible to repeat this process in the H6 when they decided to convert it from its torpedo role to a regular bomber??

Edited November 27, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Gielow

[LukeFF]

Another source saying the H6 was used first as torpedo bomber and later used as a regular bomber.

 

You are mis-reading that line about it first proving its worth as a torpedo bomber. That's not saying that its first combat worthiness was found in the torpedo bomber role - rather, it's saying its first success as a torpedo bomber came with I./KG 26. Other units were using the H-6 as a standard bomber long before KG 26 converted to the torpedo role in in 1942. 

Edited November 27, 2016 by LukeFF

[SvAF/F19_Klunk]

I appreciate the discussion and the effort to prove one's point of view with FACTS and sources,.

 

What stains this "debate" is a somewhat arrogant and dismissive tone and remarks about what another person is writing (such as "makes me laugh", "police thought control".. or comments like "...everybody..knows you got no credibility..."). That is neither respecful, beneficial for what we all want to achive: a true representation of the H6.. nor is it helping the actual argumentation. It makes a interesting debate swirl towards a squabble.

Edited November 27, 2016 by SvAF/F19_Klunk

[Gunsmith86]

HE 111 H6 and H16 weapons:

The BSB 700 and BSB 1000 was a reuseable container for small incendiary bombs. It could be carried by the Ju 88 and He 111. Instead of droping the container when pressing the bomb realease button, a door on the underside opens which enable the insendiary bombs to fall out. The Container is divided into several such compartments. If the first one is empty the next one opens as long as the pilot does press the button for bomb realease. If the pilot stops to press the button the open compartment is emptyed and no new compartment is opened until the pilot does press the button again. It used against houses, tents, cars, ....






The containers looked nearly like a normal bomb could be carried like a SC 50, 250 or 500 kg bomb and they were filled up with a very large amount of diffrent kinds of small bombs, smoke bombs, marker bombs,...
The early containers were called AB 23 ( Abwurfbehälter für 23 SD2 bomben = drop container for 23 SD2 bombs wight 50kg could only be carried outside the bomb bay )
They were quickly improved with the AB 50 and AB 70 (50 was for the wight of the filled container 50kg / 70kg) AB 250 (250kg) and AB 500 (500kg)

Parts of a AB 500 found at Anzio

these containers could also be filled with flare markers and smoke bombs

too carry more than one 50kg bomb on a single bomb rack whitout fitting a diffrent  bomb rack or something else they developed a device which could hold 4 bombs and drop them at once. AB 500-3

below some more like  mines (used on land and in the water )
LM/A (Luftmine Typ A = Air droped mine type A) wight 520kg and LM/B wight 945kg
They had to be droped from more than 350m hight and at a max speed of 310 Km/h
After they drop from the airplane a peracute is deployed which slows the desent to 20m/sec if the mine hits the watter it sinks to the ground and detonates when a ship moves over the mine. If the mine hits land than a time fuse is activated which explodes the mine after 20 minutes.




Supply container which could be filld with wepons ammunition or fuel for troops.

German "Brandbomben-Schüttkasten 36" short "BSK-36" ( BSK-36 = early drop container for incendiary bombs already used in Spain with legion Condor )
The container is carried in vertical position and only the underside is droped when the bombs are released the rest of the container stayed in the airplane and could be reused.
weight 42kg-46kg
load: 36x B1E incendiary bombs or 16 x B2E a larger version of the B1E with 2kg

The HE 111 H3 in this picture just droped the load in the BSK 36

to be able to use thes incendiary bombs on other planes too some more containers were developed that could be also carried outside of a bombbay:

or the even larger AB 1000-2

 

 

 

incendiary bombs, a sort of napalm bomb. It looks like a normal SC 50, SC 250 or SC 500 but was filled diffrent.

Edited November 27, 2016 by Gunsmith86

[Asgar]

so, can we have all of those?

[wtornado]

I have asked the crew chief to remove the oil and fuel tanks for three months now we are only operating in a 800 km radius but he ignores me.

This place has gotten worse than the old mods forums talking about plane specs and set-ups.

[SvAF/F19_Klunk]

I don't mind the discussions at all; I learn a great deal and it is fantastic to see so many with a keen interest and commitment: not only to the subject but to this game. What Is sad is when it gets personal... but I guess that is a part of the deal so to speak... same thing in every forum no matter what the subject.

 

The biggest downside when getting personal instead of discussing Facts, is that instead of trying to learn what is the truth together by presenting facts and comparing, is that it becomes a pi**ing contest where the actual theme of the discussion is of lesser concern... and that is contra productive..

Edited November 27, 2016 by SvAF/F19_Klunk

[ShamrockOneFive]

I have asked the crew chief to remove the oil and fuel tanks for three months now we are only operating in a 800 km radius but he ignores me.

This place has gotten worse than the old mods forums talking about plane specs and set-ups.

 

This is all fascinating info. Why is it worse?

[-WILD-AlbinoHA5E]

This is all fascinating info. Why is it worse?

Gielow be givin em some serious Sass. Sounds like he needs an Attitude Adjustment, and I know the Right Person for that.

[Gambit21]

New findings:

 

Another source saying the H6 was used first as torpedo bomber and later used as a regular bomber.

 

 

 

http://www.k12reader.com/subject/reading-skills/reading-comprehension/

[Guest deleted@126158]

You can apologise later

 

HE 111 H6.jpg

 

Sorry to bother you but do you have more pages of Rustsatz A and C?

[Gunsmith86]

Yes i have. I will post them when i have some time this week.

[Scojo]

so, can we have all of those?

LOL

 

Asgar has his priorities straight

[Gunsmith86]

HE 111 H6

 

Rüstsatz A :

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Rüstsatz C:

 

 

[Asgar]

LOL

 

Asgar has his priorities straight

yep, bombs for days! 

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

Does anybody have the picture of fat Göring getting stuck trying to climb into a 111?

[Gunsmith86]

performance of the He 111 H-3 variant.

 

 

[Dutchvdm]

Does anybody have the picture of fat Göring getting stuck trying to climb into a 111?

 

You mean this Herman? 

 

 

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

111 H6 is already so powerful in game there is no need for the extra bombs. (as per my bombing statst in cig was 95% in He-111)

i mean if i want to take little bombs ill take 88

but if i want to rip it up ill take 111 with 2 x 1t or 2 x 1.8t
(explosive content of SC2500 rarely makes it worth carrying it has almost the same TNT as 1.8t but just a giant AP Steel head)