109 Taxiing - Differential Brakes vs Wind

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

During the TAW campaign there were a number of missions where strong winds made it very difficult for many to successfully taxi their plane to the runway - especially in the snow.

 

Having performed some checks whilst offline it appears that in wind conditions exceeding 8-9m/s result in the plane being unable to rotate itself to the right when facing a direction relative to the wind, even with full rudder, one differential brake at full pressure and the other unlocked. Was this an issue in the real plane as well?

 

It seems that you cannot apply enough pressure to lock the right wheel and get the tail wheel to change direction.

 

[Haza]

During the TAW campaign there were a number of missions where strong winds made it very difficult for many to successfully taxi their plane to the runway - especially in the snow.

 

Having performed some checks whilst offline it appears that in wind conditions exceeding 8-9m/s result in the plane being unable to rotate itself to the right when facing a direction relative to the wind, even with full rudder, one differential brake at full pressure and the other unlocked. Was this an issue in the real plane as well?

 

It seems that you cannot apply enough pressure to lock the right wheel and get the tail wheel to change direction.

 

Tripwire,

 

I had a similar experience with the IL2 1941/1942, however, it didn't appear to affect everybody who spawned in at the same area and of course I didn't have the advantage of Diff braking.

Edited November 13, 2016 by Haza

[Asgar]

I was on TAW yesterday and one of our guys complained that he wasn't able to turn right, after i asked he told me he used about 2000 RPM to taxi. After I told him to reduce it to around 1200 (like actual LW pilots did for taxiing) it worked and he could maneuver his plane. So far, i haven't had a single occasion when i wasn't able to turn my 109

[busdriver]

Tripwire, I just tried several winter map quick missions taxiing a BF-109F model. I didn't look at my power setting, it required a healthy handful of throttle (I have the TM Warthog) which might be 1/4 - 1/2 way toward full power to get rolling, but then I reduced throttle to a little above idle. I also had the tail wheel unlocked prior to moving. I could consistently turn right into any wind whilst on a runway or taxiway surface if I started rolling straight ahead then right rudder and some braking along with full right aileron. I fly little taildraggers in RL and aileron into the wind is important.

 

I'll have to go back and check to see if my technique mirrors Asgar's suggestion of 1200 rpm.

 

[1st edit] Yep Asgar's number is quite accurate, I used a quick burst of 1300-1500 rpm to get rolling then throttled back to 1100-1200 to taxi at a very controllable pace. If I let the nose start drifting toward an imminent ground loop I'd give it a steady shot of 1500 rpm until I had the nose back under control.

 

[2d edit] Attached jpeg shows where I stopped on the runway with the wind 90 degrees to my right then applied full right brake (I have the Crosswind pedals too) and pivoted in place.

 

 

Hope that helps.

Edited November 13, 2016 by busdriver

[Guest deleted@50488]

Affirm,

 

in the first releases of the G-2 I did have some problems taxiing, but in the present version it's really no big deal even under 12m/s x-wind, provided I get the throttle such that no more than 1200rpm, and use proper taildragger taxiing techniques.

 

There's a very good video by Requiem on this:

 

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

Thanks for the tips guys. I will try them out.

[Dakpilot]

Some mention of taxiing 109 G2 here

 

http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/articles/airframes/black6/bk6_flight.htm

 

Pilot also mentions his reluctance to fly in anything more than 5.14 M/S crosswind so 8-9 M/S may need caution and technique

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Edited November 14, 2016 by Dakpilot

[Bando]

Hi Dakpilot, the link does not work for me.

[Dakpilot]

Hi Dakpilot, the link does not work for me.

 

Should work now

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Bando]

Yep, thanks 

 

EDIT:

 

Hello Dakpilot, you are a pilot yourself. How would you judge this take off procedures:

 

Han in http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/25993-aircraft-flight-and-technical-specifications-and-operational/?view=getlastpost says:

 

- Airplane has a manually controlled horizontal stabilizer. It should be set to +1° before takeoff and to -4°...-5° before landing. Also, it may be used to trim the flight stick during the flight. In a deep dive the stabilizer should be set so that the pilot must push the flight stick forward to maintain the dive angle.

 

This means a trim pitched forward (+1) and he's not talking about flaps at take off.

The above is a valid method, as I have taken off on my simulated 109G2.

 

Dave Southwood however talks about 20 degrees of flaps on take off and a trim of -1 :

Take off is made with 1 degree nose up tailplane trim, 20 degrees of flap lowered and always with the tailwheel locked.

 

Furthermore; it seems to me he takes of with 1.1 ATA.

 

Do you have any thoughts on this, or did I read it all wrong?

Edited November 15, 2016 by Bando

[Dakpilot]

Yep, thanks 

 

EDIT:

 

Hello Dakpilot, you are a pilot yourself. How would you judge this take off procedures:

 

Han in http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/25993-aircraft-flight-and-technical-specifications-and-operational/?view=getlastpost says:

 

- Airplane has a manually controlled horizontal stabilizer. It should be set to +1° before takeoff and to -4°...-5° before landing. Also, it may be used to trim the flight stick during the flight. In a deep dive the stabilizer should be set so that the pilot must push the flight stick forward to maintain the dive angle.

 

This means a trim pitched forward (+1) and he's not talking about flaps at take off.

The above is a valid method, as I have taken off on my simulated 109G2.

 

Dave Southwood however talks about 20 degrees of flaps on take off and a trim of -1 :

Take off is made with 1 degree nose up tailplane trim, 20 degrees of flap lowered and always with the tailwheel locked.

 

Furthermore; it seems to me he takes of with 1.1 ATA.

 

Do you have any thoughts on this, or did I read it all wrong?

 

I imagine operating a (rare) 70 odd year old Historic aircraft with very limited spares could have big differences in operating procedure

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

The manual recommended stab setting for takeoff was neutral (0°). If I'm not mistaken the Bf-109 G-2 (Black 6) once had a a prop strike during takeoff which is why Dave recommends operating it with 1° tailheavy trim on takeoff.

I imagine operating a (rare) 70 odd year old Historic aircraft with very limited spares could have big differences in operating procedure

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Black 6 is one of the few original Bf109s flying and surely well restored. There's no reason believing it's qualitavely inferiour to a fielded Bf109 at the time (more so if you consider how many field repairs and how much structual stress those aircraft had to go threw).

 

Furthermore here's a quote from sby who was in contact with Klaus Plasa (ex Buchon Bf109 G-4 'Red7' and G-10 'Black 10' test pilot):

 

But I can summarize, for now, what Klaus replied...

I was mainly concerned with the need to use such nose heavy trim settings, and about the pitching up moments, and basically his answers pointed out that in the exhibition aircraft he flies even if not loaded with guns and ammunition, MW or external fuel tanks, etc.... which could contribute even more to a tail heavy experience...

1) takeoff is usually done at +1, flaps 20º, but as the undercarriage is retracted, the flaps begin to be tediously brought in and as the aircraft gains speed, further nose heavy trim IS required.

2) For landing, specially the more empty the fuel tanks are, a good deal of tail heavy trim is needed, but Klaus mentions -2, maybe a bit more - which is exactly what I have to use in [ ] with gear down and full flaps ( most of the time -4 ), as Klaus points out needed for a easier 3 point landing...

Edited November 15, 2016 by 6./ZG26_5tuka

[Dakpilot]

The manual recommended stab setting for takeoff was neutral (0°). If I'm not mistaken the Bf-109 G-2 (Black 6) once had a a prop strike during takeoff which is why Dave recommends operating it with 1° tailheavy trim on takeoff.

Black 6 is one of the few original Bf109s flying and surely well restored. There's no reason believing it's qualitavely inferiour to a fielded Bf109 at the time (more so if you consider how many field repairs and how much structual stress those aircraft had to go threw).

 

Furthermore here's a quote from sby who was in contact with Klaus Plasa (ex Buchon Bf109 G-4 'Red7' and G-10 'Black 10' test pilot):

 

I don't believe it is in any way qualitatively inferior, but it is still 70 years old and not brand new, I have flown 70+ year old (well maintained) aircraft and brand new ones and approached them differently. 

 

My main reasoning is that when a Bf/Me 109G2 was new there were rather a lot of them with 'unlimited parts of the shelf and

 

as you say Black six is an exceedingly rare historic aircraft, this alone will force changes to the way it is operated compared to a combat aircraft in 42-43, I wonder how many spare engines they have on the shelf? enough to keep her flying for many more people to see, I hope

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

I don't believe it is in any way qualitatively inferior, but it is still 70 years old and not brand new, I have flown 70+ year old (well maintained) aircraft and brand new ones and approached them differently. 

 

My main reasoning is that when a Bf/Me 109G2 was new there were rather a lot of them with 'unlimited parts of the shelf and

 

as you say Black six is an exceedingly rare historic aircraft, this alone will force changes to the way it is operated compared to a combat aircraft in 42-43, I wonder how many spare engines they have on the shelf? enough to keep her flying for many more people to see, I hope

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Age doesn't change physics. Furthermore there are way more influrencing factors such as weather and envirounment (to come back on topic) that have impact on taxeoff procedure.

 

With spare parts becoming increasingly rare and expensive they will surely restore and maintain them carefully not to waste any of it.

[LLv44_Damixu]

On Bf 109-G2 I've had quite regularily problems to steer the plane on taxiing to right. For example my other squadmates do not suffer this issue and I am the one. When the issue comes up, I have no means to steer my Bf 109 to right no matter I try to do. Wind direction is not the issue here, because this lack of steering right is on every direction.

This is the reason I've given up flying IL2 and our squad nights. I cannot steer the f*ing plane on the ground when this problem occurs.

 

I've changed the whole computer and pedals (2800 eur.) in order to try to fix this problem, but no avail.

 

You gentlemen on 1CGS I am hoping that you would investigate this issue and get it fixed. I am willing to be a guinea pig in order to find out what is the problem and how to solve it, if you need some testing assistance.

Edited November 17, 2016 by LLv32_Damixu