Chief_Mouser Posted November 10, 2016 Posted November 10, 2016 (edited) There are inconsistencies in the display of the Fuel System of the P-40E-1. The aircraft has three fuel tanks… Fuselage Tank Main Wing, or Rear Wing, Tank Reserve Wing, or Front Wing, Tank …and fuel is used from them in that order, controlled by the Fuel Selector. See below. The fuel capacity of each tank is indicated by the numbers on the Selector: Fuselage – 51.5 gallons Main Wing – 40 gallons Reserve Wing – 25 gallons (There should also be a Belly Tank option, but as it isn’t in-game it has been replaced with the left-hand of the two OFF settings.) The Fuel Tank Gauges also indicate their capacity: Fuselage – 51.5 gallons Main – 51.5 Gallons Reserve – 25 Gallons So either the capacity marked on the Selector (40 Gallons) or the display on the Main Tank Gauge itself (51.5 Gallons) is incorrect. In this thread http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/21234-p-40-engine-settings-i-found-them-bit-weird/?hl=+p Han posted a page from the ‘Pilot’s Flight Operating Instructions - P-40D and P-40E Airplanes’ so here is the fuel system diagram from the same publication: Note that the tank capacity is given in both Imperial and US Gallons, and also that the Fuel Selector is in US Gallons and doesn't match that in-game. The values shown are: Fuselage – 62.5 US Gal/ 52.0 Imp Gal Main – 50.5 US Gal/42.0 Imp Gal Reserve – 35.0 US Gal/ 29.2 Imp Gal and would appear to indicate that the in-game Fuel Selector is in Imperial Gallons as the values given are nearer than the US gallons equivalent. However, two of the in-game gauges (Main and Reserve) are labelled as US Gallons. This is where it gets tricky! First, the tank values shown in the manual aren’t set in stone. It appears that different capacity tanks may have been used on some aircraft, but for now we’ll stick with these as it’s close to what we have in-game. Secondly, when selecting a fuel loadout in-game on the Settings screen the fuel is shown in LITRES. (Selecting ‘Plane Dependent’ or ‘Imperial’ in the General Settings makes no difference; litres it is.) Logically then, using the depicted amount of fuel in litres will allow us to work out the capacity of each tank and whether they are calibrated in US or Imperial gallons. Yes? Ummm, not quite. Conversion Rates used: 1 US Gallon = 3.785L 1 Imperial Gallon = 4.546L Tank contents read from the Gauges (Gallons). E = Empty. I would be surprised if the gauges are 100% accurate, and they are difficult to read, but they are all we have. The sum of the amounts indicated on the gauges do not always agree with the percentage of the total fuel that is supposed to be on board. Selected Fuselage Main Reserve Total Litres Fuel Tank Tank Tank In-game 100% 51.5 51.5 25.0 128.0 550 90% 45.0 51.5 25.0 121.5 495 80% 29.0 51.5 25.0 105.5 440 70% 18.5 51.5 25.0 95.0 385 60% 4.0 51.5 25.0 80.5 330 50% E 38.0 25.0 63.0 275 40% E 24.0 25.0 49.0 220 30% E 10.0 25.0 35.0 165 20% E E 25.0 25.0 110 10% E E 14.5 14.5 55 Converting the Totals from gallons, both US and Imperial, to litres, rounded to the nearest 5L: Total from Gauges US Gal Imp Gal Litres Gallons in Litres in Litres in-Game 128.0 485 580 550 121.5 460 550 495 105.5 400 480 440 95.0 360 430 385 80.5 305 365 330 63.0 240 285 275 49.0 185 220 220 35.0 130 160 165 25.0 95 115 110 14.5 55 65 55 Neither set of figures agrees very closely with the in-game Litres, with US gallons reading low and Imperial gallons reading high, so we are no nearer a solution. Or are we? Notice that the Imperial Gallons to Litres conversion begins to agree at 40% fuel or less – when the Main Tank is emptying. So now, assume that it is only the Main Tank gauge depiction that is in error, and that the tank actually contains 40 gallons, not 51.5 - as shown on the Fuel Selector. Converting the gauge reading by 0.777 (i.e. 40 divided by 51.5) we have fuel readings in gallons of: Selected Fuselage Main Reserve Total Litres Fuel Tank Tank Tank In-game 100% 51.5 40.0 25.0 116.5 550 90% 45.0 40.0 25.0 110.0 495 80% 29.0 40.0 25.0 94.0 440 70% 18.5 40.0 25.0 83.5 385 60% 4.0 40.0 25.0 69.0 330 50% E 30.0 25.0 55.0 275 40% E 19.0 25.0 44.0 220 30% E 8.0 25.0 33.0 165 20% E E 25.0 25.0 110 10% E E 14.5 14.5 55 Using the new totals to convert gallons into litres: Total from Gauges US Gal Imp Gal Litres Gallons in Litres in Litres in-Game 116.5 440 530 550 110.0 415 500 495 94.0 355 430 440 83.5 315 380 385 69.0 260 315 330 55.0 210 250 275 44.0 165 200 220 33.0 125 150 165 25.0 95 115 110 14.5 55 65 55 It can be seen that the conversion from Imperial Gallons to Litres based on the Main Tank having 40 gallons is far closer than the conversion from US Gallons - which is still a much lower amount - and a better fit from either conversion where the Main tank has 51.5 gallons. So I conclude that the Tank Selector is correct in displaying 40 gallons for the Main Tank the Main Tank gauge in the cockpit should be a 40 gallon not 51.5 gallon gauge the fuel system of the P-40E-1 in-game is calibrated in Imperial gallons the Main and Reserve tanks displaying US gallons are incorrectly labelled. a figure of 550 litres of fuel selected at 100% is incorrect Whatever the result, the fuel display on the P-40E needs a serious overhaul: 550L for a 100% full fuel load does not agree with anything displayed. If the total amount of fuel is calculated from an in-game full tank of 530L (i.e. 116.5 Imp Gal) - not 550L - then there is a better correlation with all of the readings in Imperial Gallons. Other, more minor, points to consider. 1. During the Start sequence the Tank Selector is switched to Wing Main. According to this official instruction film https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOIg7JxHQBk the Selector should be turned to the Fuselage Tank. Obviously if the Fuselage Tank is empty then another would be used, but in-game it defaults to Main Tank whether there is fuel in the Fuselage Tank or not. As soon as the engine starts the in-game Fuel Selector correctly switches to the Fuselage Tank. 2. In the Operating Notes it is made clear that 28 US Gals/23 Imp Gals are not available for normal use but is used in the engine warm-up. I tried warming up the engine from cold and it takes a loooong time and uses plenty of fuel to get the Coolant temperature anywhere near to the required 85 degs, so I can see why there was so much fuel allocated to warm-up. So, as most of us start our flights with a warmed-up engine, shouldn’t this fuel no longer be available to us? Using that much fuel on warm-up equates to a loss of about 20% which seems a hell of a lot. Perhaps a simpler solution is to allocate cold engines 20% more fuel than selected, up to an ‘invisible’ extra 20% for a full tank? Or we can just leave the cold engine start to the masochists! If anyone can prove my conclusions right or wrong I would be most grateful. Cheers! Edited November 11, 2016 by 216th_Cat 8
Chief_Mouser Posted December 12, 2016 Author Posted December 12, 2016 Over a month and not one reply. If this were about the Fw190 the thread would be ten pages plus by now. I can only hope that the devs are interested, even if no-one else is. Cheers.
Urra Posted December 12, 2016 Posted December 12, 2016 Thanks for posting. Here to celebrate one month. Bumping.
unreasonable Posted December 12, 2016 Posted December 12, 2016 (edited) Missed this excellent post first time, otherwise would have given it an upvote then. Possible reason for the lack of replies is that your post is logical, factual, well sourced and very comprehensive: it even has sensible proposals for improvements! Consequently there is little or no room for nit-picking or fault finding. Even those who might want to take issue are probably too terrified of your reply to try it on. (The only possible additional thing I can think of is that some P40 variants came from the US and other from the UK IIRC, so the might be a remote possibility of instruments with Imperial and US measures ending up being mixed up during actual repair/refurbishment or during the developers' research into cockpit instrumentation etc, but this is pure speculation...) Perhaps the post should be expressed as a query in the "questions for developers" section? They do seem to be paying far more attention to that these days. Edited December 12, 2016 by unreasonable
Urra Posted December 12, 2016 Posted December 12, 2016 Very reasonable, I would definitely copy and post it there.
JG13_opcode Posted December 13, 2016 Posted December 13, 2016 (edited) Over a month and not one reply. If this were about the Fw190 the thread would be ten pages plus by now. I can only hope that the devs are interested, even if no-one else is. Cheers. Great post. Han has stated that if you have a quality problem report, with a solution and data to back it up, you should PM it to him directly. Edited December 13, 2016 by JG13_opcode
Crump Posted December 13, 2016 Posted December 13, 2016 Over a month and not one reply. If this were about the Fw190 the thread would be ten pages plus by now. I can only hope that the devs are interested, even if no-one else is. Cheers. Yeah, PM Han directly. Great post!
Nil Posted December 13, 2016 Posted December 13, 2016 (edited) Hey Cat, I did not see your post, I must admit that it is a great post. Lot of good work, bravo! Thanks to post like that and the work of the dev, this simu is getting better and better Example with the Mc202 reticle which was fixed. Even thought I never fly the P40 , but I am not selfish, I care about other people out here! PM sent to you! Edited December 13, 2016 by Nil
Chief_Mouser Posted December 13, 2016 Author Posted December 13, 2016 Thanks for your replies chaps. The post has been sent to the devs. Fingers crossed now; everything that makes this sim more realistic will be a bonus. Cheers.
AnPetrovich Posted December 30, 2016 Posted December 30, 2016 Thanks for your attention to this matter and special thanks to Geoff for his research with a respect to details. I'll write back in a few days, so don't worry about our response, it will be. P.S. Happy New Year for everyone!
JtD Posted January 3, 2017 Posted January 3, 2017 The aircraft had a fuel capacity of ~123 imperial gallons or ~560 litres. Gauges did not necessarily match the contents 100%, but the main wing tank gauge in the manual is a 40some gallon gauge. Good find!
AnPetrovich Posted January 8, 2017 Posted January 8, 2017 Hi guys! At first, let’s take a look at the sources. When I worked on the fuel system of the P-40E-1 I used these: [1]. Pilot's Flight Operating Instructions, P-40D and P-40E AIRPLANES, T.O. № 01-25CF-1, Feb.25 1943, Revised 4-10-43. [2]. Erection and Maintenance Instructions for Army Model P-40E-1, T.O. № 01-25-CJ-2, Aug.15 1942, Revised Jan.15 1944. [3]. Operation and Flight Instructions,Models P-40D and P-40E PURSUIT AIRPLANES, T.O. № 01-25CF-1, Apr.25 1941, Revised 9-5-41. [4]. The Kitty Hawk I Aeroplane (Curtiss H-87A-2 and H-87A-3) Allison V-1710 F.3 R. Engine, Air Publication 2014A Volume 1, Aug.1941. [5]. America's Hundred Thousand. [6]. Самолёт Кертисс Р-40Е "Киттихаук", Инструкция авиамеханику, изд.2, 1944. [7]. Инструкция лётчику по эксплоатации самолёта Кертисс P-40E-1 (Киттихаук) с мотором Аллисон V-1710-39 (F3R), 1942. These sources give us the following information about volumes of the fuel tanks: FUSELAGE TANK: U.S. gallons: 62.5 - [1], page 3 62.5 - [2], pages: 81, 131 62.5 - [3], page 7 Normal: 37.0 - [3], pages 5, 7, 25 Imp. gallons: 52.0 - [1], page 3 51.5 - [2], pages: 81,131 51.5 - [4], pages: 7, 136, 140 Normal: 28.8 - [4], page 136 MAIN TANK: U.S. gallons: 50.5 - [1], page 3 50.5 - [2], pages: 81, 131 51.0 - [3], pages: 5, 7, 25 Imp. gallons: 42.0 - [1], page 3 42.1 - [2], pages: 81, 131 42.1 - [4], pages: 7, 136, 140 RESERVE TANK: U.S. gallons: 35.0 - [1], page 3 35.0 - [2], pages: 81, 131 32.0 - [3], pages: 5, 7, 25 Imp. gallons: 29.2 - [1], page 3 29.2 - [2], pages: 81, 131 29.2 - [4], pages: 7,136 29.23 - [4], page 140 ALL FUEL TANKS CAPACITY: U.S. gallons: 145.5 - [3], page 5 148.9 - [5], page 229 Imp. gallons: 122.8 - [4], page 7 Liters: 560 - [6], page 20 Just to clarify and to stop any gossips our in-game P-40E-1 has: FUSELAGE TANK: 236.6 Liters (= 62.503 U.S. gal = 52.045 Imp. gal) MAIN TANK: 191.2 Liters (= 50.510 U.S. gal = 42.058 Imp. gal) RESERVE TANK: 132.5 Liters (= 35.003 U.S. gal = 29.146 Imp. gal) ALL FUEL TANKS CAPACITY: 560.3 Liters (= 148.016 U.S. gal = 123.249 Imp. gal) The fuel density used for this aircraft was 0.72 kg/liter which gives us the weight of the fuel: FUSELAGE TANK: 170.352 kg (= 375.562 lbs), Ref: 375 lbs - [4], page 20 MAIN TANK: 137.664 kg (= 303.497 lbs), Ref: 303 lbs - [4], page 20 RESERVE TANK: 95.400 kg (= 210.321 lbs), Ref: 210 lbs - [4], page 20 SUMMARY WEIGHT: 403.416 kg (= 889.380 lbs), Ref: 403 kg - [7], page 4 The next question you would ask me, I guess: why do we have other numbers on the fuel gauges and on the fuel selector in the game? Well, our 3D artists used photos that they had, and on these photos there were exactly these numbers. To be honest, I don't know how it happened. I will ask our 3D lead artist to check it. Anyway, our model of the fuel system of this aircraft has the fuel tanks with the capacity I wrote above. Btw, in-game fuel gauges of the P-40E-1 indicate the following volumes: FUSELAGE TANK GAUGE: from 0 to 51.5 U.S. gal (but the fuel tank holds ~62.5 U.S. gal) MAIN TANK GAUGE: from 0 to 51.5 U.S. gal (and the fuel tank has pretty the same capacity) RESERVE TANK GAUGE: from 0 to 25.0 U.S. gal (but the fuel tank holds ~35 U.S. gal) And all these gauges in game work correct. (I’ve just spent time to recheck this in the code, in the 3D model of the cockpit and in the game tests). So, you can trust them, but don't forget, that capacity of FUSELAGE and RESERVE fuel tanks bigger than gauges can indicate. Also notice, that only FUSELAGE TANK GAUGE needed a power to work. Other fuel gauges work all the time. when selecting a fuel loadout in-game on the Settings screen the fuel is shown in LITRES. (Selecting ‘Plane Dependent’ or ‘Imperial’ in the General Settings makes no difference; litres it is.) Yep, that’s a bug, I agree. I’ll say it to our PM. Thank you for the report. So I conclude that the Tank Selector is correct in displaying 40 gallons for the Main Tank No. The MAIN TANK holds 191.2 liters (= 50.510 U.S. gal = 42.058 Imp. gal) the Main Tank gauge in the cockpit should be a 40 gallon not 51.5 gallon gauge No. It should be as it is. the fuel system of the P-40E-1 in-game is calibrated in Imperial gallons No. We use the International Metric System. So, all volumes in the game are calibrated and set in liters. the Main and Reserve tanks displaying US gallons are incorrectly labelled. I agree that the RESERVE TANK GAUGE indicates less volume that the RESERVE TANK can hold, but I’m not sure that the real gauge was different. We need to recheck this. a figure of 550 litres of fuel selected at 100% is incorrect Yes. In fact, in the Briefing (Plane Setting Menu) there are 550 liters displayed instead of 560, when selected at 100%. It’s a bug, but it’s just a GUI issue. Will be fixed asap, thanks again! (If you want to know the real fuel amount aboard before your flight, just multiply the displayed number on 1.018 = 560/550) Other, more minor, points to consider. 1. During the Start sequence the Tank Selector is switched to Wing Main. According to this official instruction film https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOIg7JxHQBk the Selector should be turned to the Fuselage Tank. Obviously if the Fuselage Tank is empty then another would be used, but in-game it defaults to Main Tank whether there is fuel in the Fuselage Tank or not. As soon as the engine starts the in-game Fuel Selector correctly switches to the Fuselage Tank. This is just a feature. In the [1], section 2 “Pilot Operating Instructions”, just before Starting Engine procedure (#3), and during the part “On Entering the Pilot’s Compartment” (#2), page 11, it is written: (8) Fuel selector (figure 8) on “RES”. So, our “fuel system bot” sets the Fuel Selector on “RES” (not on “MAIN” as you wrote) before starting engine, according to the Flight Manual. And after the starting procedure finished, he sets the Fuel Selector on the actual position, which depends on the amount of the fuel aboard. I agree, that in different Flight Manuals there could be different ways to start the engine. Anyway we made it according to one of PFMs. So, this could not be called bug. 2. In the Operating Notes it is made clear that 28 US Gals/23 Imp Gals are not available for normal use but is used in the engine warm-up. I tried warming up the engine from cold and it takes a loooong time and uses plenty of fuel to get the Coolant temperature anywhere near to the required 85 degs, so I can see why there was so much fuel allocated to warm-up. So, as most of us start our flights with a warmed-up engine, shouldn’t this fuel no longer be available to us? Using that much fuel on warm-up equates to a loss of about 20% which seems a hell of a lot. Perhaps a simpler solution is to allocate cold engines 20% more fuel than selected, up to an ‘invisible’ extra 20% for a full tank? Ok, let’s assume that you are getting the aircraft which is completely prepared by the ground team and ready for the flight. It means they warmed up the engine and after that they fully filled all tanks. So, I conclude that: The fuel tanks capacity in game is correct (according to the sources) The fuel gauges in game work correctly. The fuel selector in game works correctly (according to the Flight Manual) GUI displays a little bit wrong amount of the fuel in liters in the Briefing (Plane Setting Menu) – it will be fixed asap. And maybe there should be some other fuel gauges in the cockpit. We need to clarify this using our sources. S! 4
JtD Posted January 8, 2017 Posted January 8, 2017 Thanks for this long answer. What are you trying to model / what was used in the VVS - US instrumentation or RAF instrumentation? Typically fuel gauges were capable of showing full capacity on the P-40's. In the P-40E-1 US manual the fuselage tank gauge goes to 60some US gallons, in the British Kittihawk I manual it goes to 50some imp. gallons.
AnPetrovich Posted January 8, 2017 Posted January 8, 2017 In the Flight Manual for the P-40 VVS used miles per hour for the speed and feets for the altitude, but liters, kg (and meters for dimensions). So, there is no difference between U.S. and Imp. feets or miles. ))
AnPetrovich Posted January 8, 2017 Posted January 8, 2017 Post scriptum: So I conclude that: Fuel tanks capacity in game is correct (according to the sources) Fuel gauges in game work correct. Fuel Selector in game works correct (according to the Flight Manual) GUI displayed a little bit wrong amount of fuel in liters in the Briefing (Plane Setting Menu) – it will be fixed asap. How could you check this in the game yourself? Well, now you know, that the fuel tanks volumes of the in-game P-40E-1 are: FUSELAGE TANK: 236.6 liters MAIN TANK: 191.2 liters RESERVE TANK: 132.5 liters (overall: 560.3 liters) Also you know, that the fuel gauges indicate the amount of fuel in U.S. gallons. And you know about the current GUI bug in the Plane Setting Menu (real amount of fuel = displayed amount of fuel times 1.018). Moreover, you should know the proper order of the fuel tanks usage: FUSELAGE TANK (at the beginning) -> MAIN TANK -> RESERVE TANK (in the end). So, let's calculate what the fuel gauges should indicate when you set the fuel in the Plane Setting Menu. For example: 1. Setting the fuel at 71% in the Plane Settings Menu will mean that you have: 0.71 * 560.3 liters = 397.813 liters (but the GUI will display only 397.813 / 1.018 = 391 liters). According to the fuel tanks volumes, there will be: 132.5 liters in the RESERVE TANK 191.2 liters in the MAIN TANK and (397.813 - (132.5 + 191.2)) = 74.113 liters in the FUSELAGE TANK So, the fuel tanks gauges will indicate that: The RESERVE TANK is full (but only 25.0 U.S. gallons will be displayed) The MAIN TANK is full (51.5.0 U.S. gallons will be displayed) And there are 74.113 liters = ~19.6 U.S. gallons in the FUSELAGE TANK (a little bit less than "20" on the gauge).. The FUEL TANK SELECTOR should be set on “FUS”. 2. Setting the fuel at 44% in the Plane Settings Menu will mean that you have: 0.44 * 560.3 liters = 246.532 liters (but the GUI will display only 246.532 / 1.018 = 242 liters). According to the fuel tanks volumes, there will be: 132.5 liters in the RESERVE TANK (246.532 - 132.5) = 114.032 liters in the MAIN TANK and zero in the FUSELAGE TANK So, the fuel tanks gauges will indicate that: The RESERVE TANK is full (but only 25.0 U.S. gallons will be displayed) There are 114.032 liters = ~30.1 U.S. gallons in the MAIN TANK (a little bit more than "30" on the gauge). And the FUSELAGE TANK is empty. The FUEL TANK SELECTOR should be set on “MAIN WING”. 3. Setting the fuel at 10% in the Plane Settings Menu will mean that you have: 0.1 * 560.3 liters = 56.03 liters (but the GUI will display only 56.03 / 1.018 = 55 liters). According to the fuel tanks volumes, there will be: 56.03 liters in the RESERVE TANK zero in the MAIN TANK and zero in the FUSELAGE TANK So, the fuel tanks gauges will indicate that: There are 56.03 liters = ~14.8 U.S. gallons in the RESERVE TANK (a little bit less than "15" on the gauge). The MAIN TANK is empty. And the FUSELAGE TANK is empty. The FUEL TANK SELECTOR should be set on “RES”. Check it yourself if you want, using any different percentages of fuel in the Plane Settings Menu. 1
Crump Posted January 8, 2017 Posted January 8, 2017 Also you know, that the fuel gauges indicate the amount of fuel in U.S. gallons. Could there be some confusion going on because of the fact aircraft have unusable fuel onboard? Generally if you look at the type certificate of an airplane, it will list the actual physical volume capacity of the tanks on a standard day. The cockpit gauges will generally read useable fuel and the weight and balance fuel portion will only reflect useable fuel. The difference between the two is the amount of unusable fuel that is left in the tank when the cockpit gauge reads empty. On the weight and balance, unusable fuel is included in the basic empty weight and CG location. 1
Chief_Mouser Posted January 8, 2017 Author Posted January 8, 2017 Hi. Thanks for the excellent answer and rigorous checking. Knowing now the actual in-game capacity of the tanks the gauges are, as you have proved, correct in their operation. The only remedial action that I can see is what has caused me to check these in the first place. The Tank Selector is calibrated in Imperial Gallons, not. U.S. The capacities should read like this: in fact, exactly like the one depicted in the manual: Hopefully it's not too much trouble to alter the graphic. Thanks once again for investigating it all, everything is clear now. Cheers. 1
Dakpilot Posted January 8, 2017 Posted January 8, 2017 With the E-1 model being the export version and the one in game likely being from the ex RAF deliveries is it possible that this is where the Imperial Gallons graphic is coming from (from historic reference) Just a thought Cheers Dakpilot
AnPetrovich Posted January 8, 2017 Posted January 8, 2017 in fact, exactly like the one depicted in the manual: Hopefully it's not too much trouble to alter the graphic. Yes, you are right.
AnPetrovich Posted January 8, 2017 Posted January 8, 2017 GUI displays a little bit wrong amount of the fuel in liters in the Briefing (Plane Setting Menu) – it will be fixed asap. Btw, already fixed. You will get it in 2.007. 2
AnPetrovich Posted January 13, 2017 Posted January 13, 2017 Hi again, we re-checked our sources and come to the conclusion that the fuel gauges with these scales should indicate the amount of fuel in the Imperial gallons. We fixed this and also erased "US" from the gauges and re-marked the fuel selector for Imperial gallons. 1
Chief_Mouser Posted January 13, 2017 Author Posted January 13, 2017 the fuel system of the P-40E-1 in-game is calibrated in Imperial gallons the Main and Reserve tanks displaying US gallons are incorrectly labelled Crikey! My initial conclusions were correct after all. To tell the truth I wasn't really expecting that. As long as the fuel selector and gauges make sense with each other then it's all good. Glad that it's been fixed - thanks for looking into it so thoroughly. Cheers. 1
BornToBattle Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 Good catch 216th_Cat! And it has now paid off to boot! Of course, the other side to this equation is that the devs actually took the time to read the material you sent them and then recheck their specs and correct them to be implemented in the next upgrade, so kudos to them too!
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