20mm cannon ..... just saying

[=EXPEND=Dendro]

What am I missing?

 

[FuriousMeow]

I guess your targets.

[Feathered_IV]

I guess your targets.

 

[E69_geramos109]

The same on the game 

[=EXPEND=Dendro]

I sometimes hit my targets   but they don't shred like that.....

[Feathered_IV]

I sometimes hit my targets   but they don't shred like that.....

 

Real life has much better graphics  

[Finkeren]

Real life has much better graphics

I actually think the RL graphics have gotten worse lately.

 

I might need stronger contact lenses.

[IRRE_Centx]

20mm HS.404 cannon* 

Fixed.

 

Glacier Girl was a P-38F, equipped with this canon originally produced by Hispano-Suiza in France (see table below) and also produced under license by British/Americans

 

Can you spot some differences between HS.404 and German 20mm?

Just a clue: yeah, there are some differences.

Like a 155m/s muzzle velocity difference with the MG 151/20 (280m/s difference with the MG-FF...) 

But I guess it's negligeable and the German 20mm should do exactly the same damages in game as the HS.404, riiiiiight?

 

Not saying that German 20mm are as they should in game, maybe there is something wrong with them I don't know, I'm not a Developer.

But compare what is comparable, stop your hypocrisis.

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://users.skynet.be/Emmanuel.Gustin/fgun/fgun-pe.html

(references used by the website editor are available directly on the website)

Edited November 7, 2016 by -IRRE-Centx

[=EXPEND=Dendro]

Please keep your panties on, CentX, I am not not comparing anything.

 

I am just missing the effect of a 20mm hit in the game (or am I not)? The mg151/20 just does not seem to have much effect in the game. Was it really that much weaker than all the other guns?

 

I thought the germans had pretty good weapons but it does not seem so.

 

Reason I am asking for advise is I have been on the Berloga MP server for 2-3 weeks now and it just seems much easier to get a kill on the first hit/pass when in the red planes. I have watched how the yaks etc get mauled by 109's and they seem to soak it all up pretty good. Not only on Berloga but also been on MP since early access.

 

I am merely putting the question out there for the ballistic guys to comment on.... not comparing anything.

[kendo]

This post from the Russian forum is really interesting - in-game video test of MG151 and Shvak:

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/4997-missii-po-obstrelu-iz-flak-38-odinochnymi-vystrela/?p=461991

 

(This was originally mentioned here in English-language forum: http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/24965-video-test-20mm/?p=405554

 

You can download the mission files and try it yourself. Clever!)

Edited November 7, 2016 by kendo

[Zygiert]

Can somebody give conclusions from this video?

[kendo]

It's complicated.....!?

 

 

Main conclusion I came to is that there are obvious limitations on the graphical representation of damage modelling in game. But understand why so not a criticism.

 

Looked to me that there wasn't much difference between MG151 and Shvak. And also maybe...(?) that destructive effect in general in the game might be a little underplayed?

 

However that is just 'feeling' - and the only thing behind it is the often-repeated quote about needing 5 cannon hits to take down a B17. So all in all - I don't know....

 

----------------------------------------

Edit... As pointed out by CuteKitten94 below it was actually 20-25 20mm shells to destroy a B17 (or ~5x30mm).

 

So, all in all damage in the video would seem to be 'in the ballpark' (with awareness that it's hitting non-critical areas until complete structural failure, which would obviously have come earlier had the plane been flying)

Edited November 7, 2016 by kendo

[E69_geramos109]

 

20mm HS.404 cannon* 

Fixed.

 

Glacier Girl was a P-38F, equipped with this canon originally produced by Hispano-Suiza in France (see table below) and also produced under license by British/Americans

 

Can you spot some differences between HS.404 and German 20mm?

Just a clue: yeah, there are some differences.

Like a 155m/s muzzle velocity difference with the MG 151/20 (280m/s difference with the MG-FF...) 

But I guess it's negligeable and the German 20mm should do exactly the same damages in game as the HS.404, riiiiiight?

 

Not saying that German 20mm are as they should in game, maybe there is something wrong with them I don't know, I'm not a Developer.

But compare what is comparable, stop your hypocrisis.

 

 

 

 

 

Muzzle velocity has no effect on the damages you see on that video, it only is usefull for AP rounds. The large hole there is made by the explosive on the round so you must compare exposive weights for the rounds. 

The german minen has a lot, about 18g. What is the explosive weight of the american shell?

[Hutzlipuh]

Muzzle velocity has no effect on the damages you see on that video, it only is usefull for AP rounds. The large hole there is made by the explosive on the round so you must compare exposive weights for the rounds. 

The german minen has a lot, about 18g. What is the explosive weight of the american shell?

http://spitfiresite.com/2010/04/spitfire-the-hispano-cannon.html

 

 

~ 6 grams like most 20mm used...

Edited November 7, 2016 by Hutzlipuh

[t4trouble]

 

 

Reason I am asking for advise is I have been on the Berloga MP server for 2-3 weeks now and it just seems much easier to get a kill on the first hit/pass when in the red planes. I have watched how the yaks etc get mauled by 109's and they seem to soak it all up pretty good. Not only on Berloga but also been on MP since early access.

 

 

I've seen 109s, soak up all my ammo too and keep flying fighting, its not just the axis guys that see this.Then there are times a short burst will knock them out or on the receiving end....

[Hutzlipuh]

How do you know what round was used in the video? And muzzle velocity being only useful for HE rounds is utter nonsense. 

 

 

 

Wasn't it only like every 4th round that were actual mine shells with 18g of explosives and the normal shels only had 4g.

correct your HE to AP please ... if you cant even read his post correctly and confound his AP with HE in your response

 

EDIT also INGAME the germans use HE/AP/HE and it was said that the only HE modeled ingame for german guns is the mine round

 

 

I've seen 109s, soak up all my ammo too and keep flying fighting, its not just the axis guys that see this.Then there are times a short burst will knock them out or on the receiving end....

 

and the defence force already arrived.....

Edited November 7, 2016 by Hutzlipuh

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

There isn't much to it, whenever you are shooting it feels like the enemy aircraft can soak up a lot, but when you are being shot things feel pretty hopeless.

 

Most of my kills on 109s and 190s came from dealing damage to cooling systems then having them crash somewhere. I could never flame one up like a matchstick, and in fact the only two times I inflicted catastrophic damage were when a) hitting the ammo storage in a Fw-190 and popping the wing clear and b) spewing rounds onto a Bf-109 who then pulled too much G and broke a wing off.

 

By comparison, I've been set on fire a few times in one snapshot, lost wings, lost the whole tail, had my rudder shot off and so on.

 

The reason why you have a difference in perception is because from the outside it always looks like the enemy is happily cruising along after being hit, but from the cockpit it really feels like "oh sh*t everything is broken and how the hell am I going to get out of this alive".

 

It must be said though that the Bf-109 had a reputation for being flimsy whereas the LaGG-3 and La-5 were known to be tough - Kozhedub landed aircraft on fire and in pieces a good few times.

[IRRE_Centx]

Please keep your panties on, CentX, I am not not comparing anything.

 

"just saying"

"what am I missing"

 

 

If you want to be understand, don't use sentences which can be interpreted, be clear.

 

 

I am just missing the effect of a 20mm hit in the game (or am I not)? The mg151/20 just does not seem to have much effect in the game. Was it really that much weaker than all the other guns?

 

I thought the germans had pretty good weapons but it does not seem so.

 

Reason I am asking for advise is I have been on the Berloga MP server for 2-3 weeks now and it just seems much easier to get a kill on the first hit/pass when in the red planes. I have watched how the yaks etc get mauled by 109's and they seem to soak it all up pretty good. Not only on Berloga but also been on MP since early access.

 

I am merely putting the question out there for the ballistic guys to comment on.... not comparing anything.

 

See the link posted in the provious post by kendo, sums up everything.

20mm shells are efficient in the game, I don't count how many times I was shot down at first pass by a 109.

(AGAIN, not saying they're perfectly modeled, maybe something is wrong with them, I don't know. I just say that they're not totally crap like everyone seems to say on this forum)

 

 

Problem is mainly that a lot of 109 pilots think that they should one shot everything, so they do dumbass passes, not aiming at critical point of planes...

Play on Russian side, especially in Pe-2 since a lot of the forum wars are about this plane those days.

 

You'll meet two different types of German pilots:

- the one who think they'll destroy you easily with 20mm because you're not a fighter, shooting at 400m without thinking and then raging that 20mm isn't effective/Russians are OP.

- the one who know they have to aim at vital parts at short range, and systematically one shot your pilot/engine by attacking with proper angle at 100m

 

After few hours, you'll see the difference. And you'll see that strangely the second category of 109 pilots don't rage that German 20mm isn't efficient.

 

 

Muzzle velocity has no effect on the damages you see on that video, it only is usefull for AP rounds. The large hole there is made by the explosive on the round so you must compare exposive weights for the rounds. 

The german minen has a lot, about 18g. What is the explosive weight of the american shell?

 

Yeah you're right on this point, I was a bit unprecise here.

(and by the way muzzle velocity is important for HE shells too... not as important as for AP rounds, yes, but important too)

 

 

But it's still not comparable with German canons, so what is the point of showing an US canon shooting US projectile for a game where there are no US planes?

 

And by the way for the above post who says 6g of explosive filler, those are British ammos for the Hispano Mk.II. British didn't like the HE ammos in general, they prefered AP/APHE types.

Not US ammo for the "M1" version of this canon. I found 14g of explosive filler for US ammos but on wikipedia so I don't trust this source and don't have time to search for more accurate source.

 

 

 

And by the way it would be really really weird that they shot with an authentic WWII shell for this video. 

20mm rounds are still widely used and produced nowadays, they probably used modern ammo for this video, so with modern explosive fillers way more efficient than old WWII shells = again not comparable

Edited November 7, 2016 by -IRRE-Centx

[Asgar]

 

20mm HS.404 cannon* 

Fixed.

 

Glacier Girl was a P-38F, equipped with this canon originally produced by Hispano-Suiza in France (see table below) and also produced under license by British/Americans

 

Can you spot some differences between HS.404 and German 20mm?

Just a clue: yeah, there are some differences.

Like a 155m/s muzzle velocity difference with the MG 151/20 (280m/s difference with the MG-FF...) 

But I guess it's negligeable and the German 20mm should do exactly the same damages in game as the HS.404, riiiiiight?

 

Not saying that German 20mm are as they should in game, maybe there is something wrong with them I don't know, I'm not a Developer.

But compare what is comparable, stop your hypocrisis.

 

 

you're right...there are differences...like the MG 151 shells having more than double the HE filler most other 20mm shells have. which is basically the only thing that counts when it comes to the effectiveness of HE shells vs thin metal surfaces

[Hutzlipuh]

 thin metal surfaces

...or "delta-lumber" 0.3 to 0.5 mm thick

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

http://spitfiresite.com/2010/04/spitfire-the-hispano-cannon.html

 

 

~ 6 grams like most 20mm used...

Based on 1943 manual for US M1 and M2 20 mm aircraft cannons,  standard HE-I MK. I W/FUSE P.D. 253 MK . I-II, had high explosive incendiary component of 13,6 grams. 

 

 

you're right...there are differences...like the MG 151 shells having more than double the HE filler most other 20mm shells have. which is basically the only thing that counts when it comes to the effectiveness of HE shells vs thin metal surfaces

That's not entirely true, what matters is also type of explosive material used, its shape, density and additional materials (like incendiary components). For the whole effectiveness its also necessary to use a proper fuse. 

Edited November 7, 2016 by =LD=Hiromachi

[Livai]

Can somebody give conclusions from this video?

 

How "=81FG=HellKitten" said "Sometimes it feels right and sometimes it feels very unreasonable"

 

Here you can read more about it! Source: http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/19439-more-changes-dm-how-it-works/

Before that all DM changes all planes catched easily fire or plane parts broken off from a few 20mm shots. Not sure if that was correct but had more the feeling from CLoD where 20mm shredded the planes very quickly!

[Gunsmith86]

 

 

And by the way it would be really really weird that they shot with an authentic WWII shell for this video. 20mm rounds are still widely used and produced nowadays, they probably used modern ammo for this video, so with modern explosive fillers way more efficient than old WWII shells = again not comparable

 

No way they most surely realy used the ammunition they found there most modern 20mm ammunition would not fit into the gun.

[=EXPEND=Dendro]

 

 

angryvikinG' timestamp='1478514349' post='407173'] Be honest, do you always remove armor shield/head rest?

Honestly, I always remove my headrest for vis.

[-WILD-AlbinoHA5E]

It's complicated.....!?

 

 

Main conclusion I came to is that there are obvious limitations on the graphical representation of damage modelling in game. But understand why so not a criticism.

 

Looked to me that there wasn't much difference between MG151 and Shvak. And also maybe...(?) that destructive effect in general in the game might be a little underplayed?

 

However that is just 'feeling' - and the only thing behind it is the often-repeated quote about needing 5 cannon hits to take down a B17. So all in all - I don't know....

Well, from the outside it's always hard to judge what happens on the inside.

 

Well, as far as I know the average Numbers reported by the germans were:

 

Fighters: 5x 20mm or 1x30mm

Bombers: 20-25x 20mm or ca. 5x 30mm

 

Also, what does "taking down" mean? I don't think it means shredding it to confetti, it could just be sparking a fire, killing the Pilot and Co-Pilot, destroying the elevator controls, all of which "take down" the enemy without requiring massive amounts of 20mm to do.

Also, what is to say how many B-17s actually "taken down" were actually just leaving formation and save their Equus africanus asinii?

 

I don't think damage is over or undermodelled, but I guess Over-expected by some. A single 20mm hit can often enough ruin the day for a fighter, not destroying him as such, but crippling him to the point where he is only an easy target.

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

I dont think headrest is a reason here, would it even protect against 20 mm AP Shvak round ? Most of the time my pilot is alive, its the aircraft that suffers catastrophic damage - tail controls do not respond (rods broken), wing breaks, engine seizes to operate. Few times my aircraft was damaged so fast that I didnt even know what happened until I realized I have no control. 

[=EXPEND=Dendro]

The perceptions and tests are far too wide and diverse to put a conclusion to and the arguments will continue till the end of days but it is interesting to throw the ideas and figures out there. Maybe I am biased and hypocritical and I do get pi**ed off when my wing gets blown off every time but I honestly feel that the red birds seem to handle so much better for so much longer and that is even when I fly them. If I had to choose a low alt scrap I would choose a yak over a LW bird anytime, but that's just my honest opinion, nothing more and nothing less.

[216th_Jordan]

The perceptions and tests are far too wide and diverse to put a conclusion to and the arguments will continue till the end of days but it is interesting to throw the ideas and figures out there. Maybe I am biased and hypocritical and I do get pi**ed off when my wing gets blown off every time but I honestly feel that the red birds seem to handle so much better for so much longer and that is even when I fly them. If I had to choose a low alt scrap I would choose a yak over a LW bird anytime, but that's just my honest opinion, nothing more and nothing less.

True regarding the 109, its quite fragile.

[IRRE_Centx]

No way they most surely realy used the ammunition they found there most modern 20mm ammunition would not fit into the gun.

 

Actually I watched again the video, and indeed they say that they use real ammo found in the wreck... But, it's History Channel. 

I never trust what History Channel could say, never forget that they produce "Alien Theory". 

[Danziger]

But, it's History Channel.

I never trust what History Channel could say, never forget that they produce "Alien Theory".

True. I really wish History Channel, Discovery and TLC would get their act together. Pretty sure people forgot by now what TLC actually stands for...

[Gunsmith86]

I agree whit you on the History Channel and if you want to know what they did wrong on this video thats simple; Dont ever try a at least 60 year old cannon whit old explosiv ammunition and be anywere near it when fireing. You are only save if there is someting realy thick between you and the gun. What would have happend if the round exploded inside the barrel? It was realy stupid to try this gun there

[IRRE_Centx]

I agree whit you on the History Channel and if you want to know what they did wrong on this video thats simple; Dont ever try a at least 60 year old cannon whit old explosiv ammunition and be anywere near it when fireing. You are only save if there is someting realy thick between you and the gun. What would have happend if the round exploded inside the barrel? It was realy stupid to try this gun there

 

And you can add that the ammo were in the ice for 60 years.

Not stocked in a forgotten army reserve, no.

In the ice = corrosion of the shells, chemical degradation of the powder/explosive and so on...

You don't even TOUCH an ammo like this. So firing it with a cannon, moreover with a 60 years old cannon... nope.

 

 

That's why I don't trust them when they say that they used a shell found on the wreck. I'm not even sure they fired the real 60 years old gun...

Edited November 7, 2016 by -IRRE-Centx

[-WILD-AlbinoHA5E]

Well, that's the Mainstream American Media for you. But I guess it lands with the people.

[Gunsmith86]

It would be far to mutch work to bring a other gun there just for this video they would have fired one on another place were it would have been save if they had this possibility. But they didnt do that and used the real gun and ammo at the first and mostlikely only time they could before some nation send someone to take it

[MiloMorai]

http://www.quarryhs.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm

 

WORLD WAR 2 FIGHTER ARMAMENT EFFECTIVENESS

 

© Anthony G Williams & Emmanuel Gustin (with acknowledgements to Henning Ruch)

 Revised August 2013

[Gunsmith86]

If you want to know more about aircraft weapons buy his book

title;

Flying Guns of World war two

 

Its one of the best out there about this topic

Edited November 7, 2016 by Gunsmith86

[IRRE_Centx]

Anyway, just for fun.

 

Took a screenshot from the in-game test of German 20mm shot on a Pe-2 (see link in the post of kendo above, first video)

 

Used a software where you can set a reference dimension (here I took the wingspan of a Pe-2 = 17,16m) and use it to measure other dimensions.

Measured the diameter of the hole in the wing = 0,424 m = 42,4 cm

 

A petrol baril like in the video (assuming it's a standard model) is 88,6cm high (34,9 inches for our US friends), and it was half destroyed by the HE shell = roughly 40-45cm impact diameter.

 

Looks like the size of the impact is pretty similar to me... At least graphically speaking!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(I'm not assuming that it's correct "physically", don't know the material of the plane and which consequences it will have on his in-flight behavior)

Edited November 7, 2016 by -IRRE-Centx

[BlitzPig_EL]

One of the gentlemen that we vintage race with was one of the principals on the Glacier Girl project.  I had the chance to ask some questions of him at the track several years back.

 

They used the ammo that was in the aircraft, as transporting ammunition across several international borders would have been highly illegal.

 

 

As an aside, comparing an oil drum to the fuselage or wing structure of an aircraft is really silly don't you think?

[Blutaar]

Yes, the barrel should be tougher then the thin alu on the wings or fuselage.

[Gambit21]

Reminds me of the classic (and legit) discussions about the neutered.50 cals in the old sim. Good times.