What planes were in this conflict?

[VeryOldMan]

So, you won't support a title that needs it, in a genre that is shrinking, because you can't get your point whore plane?

 

I cannot understand this mind set.  If this title does not have support at the beginning it could be in trouble, as the publisher, 1C, has already taken a major hit

on it's last WW2 flight sim fiasco.

 

But you 190 guys would rather stomp your feet and whine because your favorite plane is not in it?

 

Sad, very sad.

 

 

The other option would be to  buy the game and not play it?  In  the old Il2 series I never liked BoB  servers, and whenever a server loaded amap and planeset limited to Emils, I would drop and go to another server.

 

Don't fool yourself, one of the reasons that COD did not sell  enough was the  timeframe of the  game.  Not having  US airplanes  cut you from  a LOT of people from the most lucrative market.

 

I understand the historical  coolnes of modeling an operation. But when you are dealing in a very small market as you said,  its logical  to  just be sane and include a few more planes, even if only to be used online to attract a lot of the fanboys. A LOT of peopel do not like the planes of  battle of britain and that makes a huge impact in sales. A lot of my old   gaming friends  did not bought  CoD exaclty because they  were not interested in BoB.

 

And on the supporting the developer, Well I bought  3 copies of FB 3 copies of ACE and 3 copies of PF. yes 3...  exaclty to  support a game that I felt was amazing. Pity  I could  barely   get my hands on 1 copy of 1946, but I would have also bought extra copies if I could. But I bought zero copies of a game based on a scenario I did not enjoyed. Simple as that.

[I/JG27_Rollo]

The other option would be to  buy the game and not play it?

 

Another option would be to buy the game and play it - giving other aircraft a try.

 

Aside from personal preferences in plane choices, it's a new game that will most probably give us a new flight experience.

It also gives us the opportunity to fiddle with the graphics, getting to know the map, enjoying the scenery, figuring out the flight and damage models, let's us try out a lot of stuff and by the time all that has been done, a FW-190 add on might have been announced - who knows.

 

Most people probably have their favorite plane but not wanting to try out all the new stuff and all the other planes just because one particular plane is missing at the beginning seems a little extreme to me.

But hey, we are all free to choose...

[BlitzPig_EL]

As some of you know, my favorite aircraft are the Curtiss Hawk 75s and 81/87.

 

Will I not play this, or any other sim I have, or scenarios that do not include these aircraft?

 

Of course not.  I'll fly every plane in the set, and I have flown every one in IL2 and all it permutations. (Except for the gliders)

 

I will fly for any side that needs players online, and I try to fly as many offline as well.  There is something to be learned in all of them.

 

To limit yourself to one plane is to limit yourself in total.

[VeryOldMan]

As some of you know, my favorite aircraft are the Curtiss Hawk 75s and 81/87.

 

Will I not play this, or any other sim I have, or scenarios that do not include these aircraft?

 

Of course not.  I'll fly every plane in the set, and I have flown every one in IL2 and all it permutations. (Except for the gliders)

 

I will fly for any side that needs players online, and I try to fly as many offline as well.  There is something to be learned in all of them.

 

To limit yourself to one plane is to limit yourself in total.

 

 

No one said  we ONLY fly that plane. But Simply that I prefer to  keep playing il2 1946 because I can spend a lot of time flying the planes I like. If there was no il2 1946 maybe things woudl be different.

 

And no one is asking  for a ta-152,  just asking for planes that  were already in operation, but  because of strategical  decisions were not used on a specific campaign.   Adding a Fw190 A3 and a few US lend and lease airplanes that Could very well have flown  at stalingrad would do WONDERS to attract more players.

 

That is not whinning.. its SOUND ADVICE on  costumers desires. I  was tired of readign people say that they  woudl not buy CLoD until  US fighter planes were added... Want the game to succeed...  pay attention on the fanboys 

[BlitzPig_EL]

I think a bit of reality needs to be injected here.

 

1C/777 Studios have a very short time frame to get a functioning sim on the market.  I'm willing to bet that the corporate parent and financial backer, 1C,  have placed a fairly inflexible date on release of this project.  They simply cannot afford another two years of waiting after the 7 or 8 we have just been through with Cliffs of Dover.

 

So, adding additional planes, like the ones we all would like to see, and sure, I'd like a P40 and a P39 as flyables, would only add more time, which is in short supply now.  1C/777 Studios no doubt has the ability to use the aircraft, maps and other objects already made for the original Maddox Games sequel, and this will save LOTS of development time.

 

And as I said, time is the issue.  Because time is money.

[I/JG27_Rollo]

I agree, that the development time is a critical factor.

 

One last thought from me ('cause this is kind of getting off topic):

 

I think we can safely assume that the customer desire is considered by 1C/777 in the development of future add ons.

However, the opinion of a group of forum users might not be representative for the entire customer base.

[[CV]Biggs]

First and foremost they need to come out with a bug free playable game.   Then they can do what alot of successful franchises have done:  Expansion packs.  As the Russians break out of Stalingrad and move toward Poland;  777/1C can use that timeframe to expand its line of flyable aircraft.  It would not be hard to do, make some flyable planes and then use 777s buy to fly sales model.  Want the P-39?   Buy it for $5,  same with later models 190/109's and so on.  The Russian front is by far not my favorite place to fly a sim. I would much rather fly in the Pacific or Western Europe.  But I want WWII to live on in the combat flight sim world.   So I'll buy it

[NZTyphoon]

First and foremost they need to come out with a bug free playable game.   Then they can do what alot of successful franchises have done:  Expansion packs.  As the Russians break out of Stalingrad and move toward Poland;  777/1C can use that timeframe to expand its line of flyable aircraft.  It would not be hard to do, make some flyable planes and then use 777s buy to fly sales model.  Want the P-39?   Buy it for $5,  same with later models 190/109's and so on.  The Russian front is by far not my favorite place to fly a sim. I would much rather fly in the Pacific or Western Europe.  But I want WWII to live on in the combat flight sim world.   So I'll buy it

+1

 

It would be great to have a game packing in all the desirable aircraft and scenarios, but in reality all that will do is add to the development time and costs. And even after going to all that trouble there will be no guarantee that there will be serious interest in Russia - which is the main market - in  P-39s, P-40s or Fw 190s, etc. Get the basics right and develop expansion packs. Ditto 1/JG27 - this is just one forum, does anyone know what's being requested/suggested in the Russian forum, which is probably more representative of the main customer base being targetted?

[VeryOldMan]

I think a bit of reality needs to be injected here.

 

1C/777 Studios have a very short time frame to get a functioning sim on the market.  I'm willing to bet that the corporate parent and financial backer, 1C,  have placed a fairly inflexible date on release of this project.  They simply cannot afford another two years of waiting after the 7 or 8 we have just been through with Cliffs of Dover.

 

So, adding additional planes, like the ones we all would like to see, and sure, I'd like a P40 and a P39 as flyables, would only add more time, which is in short supply now.  1C/777 Studios no doubt has the ability to use the aircraft, maps and other objects already made for the original Maddox Games sequel, and this will save LOTS of development time.

 

And as I said, time is the issue.  Because time is money.

 

 

NOwhere I said that i expect them to release  extra planes on initial release. Just that I will only invest money when the gme can supply what I want. Just that. It is simply businness, nothing personal. As soon as they announce they will add more interesting scenario and planes I will start spending.. and  I would  not be shy of expending several hundreds of dollars then.

[I/JG27_Rollo]

Ok, one more.

 

It is of course entirely our own choice whether and when we put money into this project and nobody should ever be blamed for his personal decision.

However, I think that one thing should be considered in this decision: supporting the project early on may very well increase the chances of getting the "more interesting scenarios and planes"...

[VeryOldMan]

Ok, one more.

 

It is of course entirely our own choice whether and when we put money into this project and nobody should ever be blamed for his personal decision.

However, I think that one thing should be considered in this decision: supporting the project early on may very well increase the chances of getting the "more interesting scenarios and planes"...

true, It is just a fine line covered with  faith based judgement. Funny thing is that is a counter intuitive subject.  If you feel things will go OK  and its very likely that your money will not go to waste.. you feel more compelled to spend, in virtuous cycle. If you feel  that there is a high chance that things will not work, you  feel uncompelled to spend..  a vicious cycle.  That is why of my initial statement that the first impression , or at least the first impression of the short term  are so important.

 

Game developers lives are not easy, I know, I used to be one (then changed to a much less stressful world of automated cancer diagnostic tools, where the worst thing that could happen  is your mistakes killing someone )

[Padawan]

does anyone know what's being requested/suggested in the Russian forum, which is probably more representative of the main customer base being targetted?

As it stands right now, plane set for BoS is limited to ~10 aircraft. Considering the fact, that alot more types were represented in Stalingrad battle, main discussion revolves around guesses which of them will be included in initial release. Of course there are people, who want to see MiG-3 or FW-190, some even ask for IARs, P-40s, Hurris and other rare birds, but general consensus is that game should include mainstream aircraft for that operation (even if that means no FW-190).

Edited February 6, 2013 by Padawan

[VeryOldMan]

Preposterous.. common sense does not have a place in the internet!!!

[FlatSpinMan]

People are free to buy it or not. I hope they get it too, but you can't run someone down for deciding how to spend their own entertainment money.

[JtD]

I think the historical aircraft line up and the tactical and strategic conditions make the BoS one of the most interesting scenarios possible for a world war 2 flight simulation game. Ten flyable aircraft types isn't much, but it can cover the majority of aircraft used. I hope to see Pe-2's, Il-2's, Yak's, LaGG's, I-16's, Ju 88's, He 111's, Bf 110's, Ju 87's and Bf 109's. Should be good enough for starters. Maybe if I'm lucky more than one subtype here or there. Original Il-2, which in my opinion still holds the benchmark, started off with like twenty some (?) planes, and now has a ten times as many. If anyone expects to have a V1.0 BoS that can compete even remotely with the contents offered by a product with more than ten years of development, I think he's expecting too much.

 

Also, the Russian market alone is probably bigger than the entire international one. It would appear that domestic success is what is necessary, and for that, some odd lend lease planes are unnecessary.

[Crump]

Also, the Russian market alone is probably bigger than the entire international one

 

 

Any new facts to back this up or is it just your gut feeling or opinion?

[VeryOldMan]

Kind  to agree to that question.  Its  usually hard to believe that  there are so much more people interested in  this type of game in Russia/Ukraine than in  Western world, and considering the substantially higher buying power of US and Europe players ( obviously I am   talkign of the general case, not a hard rule)...

 

Its obvious that if you make a game based on a russian scenario with  russian planes and focus your marketing to Russian market you will sell more in Russia than in the whole American continent. But I could bet that  a game based on the midway battle would have the opposite results. The russian market for  games is huge, as is any country where half of the year people cannot go outside to have entretainment . Obviously it will be  way  larger than Brazilian market, that besides being a large economy, has the culture where people are shunned  if they spend  more than a few hours per week on  a video game instead of going to the beach alongside  thousands of beautiful half naked ladies....     But there is huge potential in US to overcome any  market, maybe with exception of China.

[wiseblood]

Gabe at Valve has mentioned this several times -

 

http://www.tcs.cam.ac.uk/story_type/site_trail_story/interview-gabe-newell/

 

Our goal is to create greater service value than pirates, and this has been successful enough for us that piracy is basically a non-issue for our company. For example, prior to entering the Russian market, we were told that Russia was a waste of time because everyone would pirate our products. Russia is now about to become our largest market in Europe.

 

http://www.geekwire.com/2011/experiments-video-game-economics-valves-gabe-newell/

 

Gabe Newell: It???

Edited February 6, 2013 by wiseblood

[VeryOldMan]

Gabe at Valve has mentioned this several times -

 

http://www.tcs.cam.ac.uk/story_type/site_trail_story/interview-gabe-newell/

 

 

 

http://www.geekwire.com/2011/experiments-video-game-economics-valves-gabe-newell/

 

 

 

AFAIK Russia and Germany basically single handedly kept the PC games market alive (as in traditional gamer games, not The Sims) by themselves from about 2005-2010.  If it had just been US/UK/Aus the PS3 and 360 would have probably wiped them out entirely.

 

 

Easy there..  being largest in european market is not even close to being largest in the world.  Take for example MMO companies that  traditionaly have their largest market sin China and US.. then  a fraction of that   russians  and other europeans.

 

I remember a few months ago the  report of Eve onlien demographics . Eve is a hardcore MMO,  and cosnidered to have a very large russian population.   There is a separate  Chiense server.. that obviosuly is fully chineese.  The international server  have an almost 50%  of Americans, and soemthign liek 20% UK and 14 % russians if I  am not mistaken. And that is a exclusively comptuer game with a number of subscribers larger than all the simmulation market combined

[Crump]

The US video game market is and has always been the largest in the world.

 

 

http://sites.duke.edu/soc142-videogames/international-trade-patterns/main-players/current-key-players/

 

 

According to the Entertainment Software Association, people in the United States spent just shy of $25 billion on video games, gaming hardware, and various accessories in 2011. That???

[VeryOldMan]

That is basically my point. Just because  Il2 sold a lot in  Eastern markets, that do not cancel the fact hat no market has so much untapped power as the  Western Market. And no.. I am NOT  from USA, just pointing a fact.

 

As I stated earlier, I believe that one of the issues that doomed CLoD besides the engine problems was the scenario that lost the chance to  start the new  series  tapping the hugest reserve of market in the world, the American market. No presence of US planes , I would  bet costed them  a few tens of thousands of players.

[JtD]

Would all be interesting if it was relevant, but since BoS is not going to be a first person shooter for X-Box, it is not.

 

My statement is based on developer/publisher statements of the last years. It still has a "probably" in it. But it is a fact, that a Russian developed, eastern front flight simulation is not going to boost record sales in the US.

[wiseblood]

You are both confusing several different things here.  The asian MMO market is a very strange beast and really not a comparable market in any way to traditional boxed games.  It is dominated by F2P - and a very unfamiliar brand of F2P game with a very different set of expectations and economy to them - and aimed at entirely different hardware spec than you'd thinking about when you think of a modern game. 

 

You know what the PC sales for most multiplatform titles were if they were in a market with the Ps3 and 360?  About 5-10%.  At best.  That's absolute doom level - that's typically about the same sales you'd get if you made a handheld port for the PSP.  Now, it's not as bad as it was - sometime around 2010 digital game sales revenue on the PC eclipsed that from retail sales - but again, this is not quite the same thing you're thinking of in terms of "game sales" - almost all of that growth is from microtransactions and subscription fees.

 

If you are bored - try and find the last time a PC exclusive game charted on NPD's all formats chart. 

 

http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/NPD_sales_figures

[BlitzPig_EL]

Gents, you need to post more complete numbers.

 

All those big numbers for the US are because of consoles, NOT PC game sales.

 

And talking about EVE or other gigantic MMOs is totally irrelevant to the niche genre of WW2 air combat simulation.

 

Air combat simulation, of all eras, is a minuscule slice of the electronic gaming pie, and the biggest eater of that tiny slice of pie is Russia.  Sure those of us in the US probably spend more on hardware and peripherals, but total air combat sim sales?  No, and I doubt the number is even close.

 

I'll hit one of my sources and see what he says.  

Edited February 6, 2013 by ElAurens

[VeryOldMan]

You are both confusing several different things here.  The asian MMO market is a very strange beast and really not a comparable market in any way to traditional boxed games.  It is dominated by F2P - and a very unfamiliar brand of F2P game with a very different set of expectations and economy to them - and aimed at entirely different hardware spec than you'd thinking about when you think of a modern game. 

 

You know what the PC sales for most multiplatform titles were if they were in a market with the Ps3 and 360?  About 5-10%.  At best.  That's absolute doom level - that's typically about the same sales you'd get if you made a handheld port for the PSP.  Now, it's not as bad as it was - sometime around 2010 digital game sales revenue on the PC eclipsed that from retail sales - but again, this is not quite the same thing you're thinking of in terms of "game sales" - almost all of that growth is from microtransactions and subscription fees.

 

If you are bored - try and find the last time a PC exclusive game charted on NPD's all formats chart. 

 

http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/NPD_sales_figures

And how is that  out of this game scope? This game IS a microtransaction game. Therefore  data that include microtransactiosn is perfeclty valid. And this is nto a mass game market.  This game would sell almost nothing to the type of person that feeds the Console market.

 

The console market is a independent world to the simulation market, there is no intersection. The fact tha console have taken  over PCS on several  types of games   means almost nothign on a market that  was already niche before the console growth and  that never ever had any intersection between both markets.

 

As I stated,  EVE online market is closer to  sim market than  any console market  annalysis....

[TJT]

Going along with the very much single minded resoning of "giving the market what it wants", which allegdly only is 190's and Mustangs, we would have a very little else to fly, ever.

[wiseblood]

They've already said BoS will not be an F2P, microtransaction game.

 

The reason I'm bringing up the PC share of video game sales is because someone thought that you could bung it in under "US video game market" which includes IOS, 360, Wii, and pass it off as huge.  That is not the PC games market!  Interestingly if we look at NPD's last figures -

 

Presently, PC gaming is not experiencing the same level as success as the console systems have. Once PC-exclusives are now multi-platform on one more consoles. Nonetheless, in 2005 consumers spent $1.4 billion on video games for PCs in 2005, according to research released by analysts NPD Group. Of that, $344 million came from subscriptions to online games and gaming Web sites, according to NPD's estimate.[1] This number has since increased along with the generally growing video game market and with the release of popular PC games such as World of Warcraft and The Sims. The worldwide PC-based game market is worth as much as $10.7 billion as of 2008. This number includes retail sales, online revenue, digital distribution and relevant ad sales.[2]

 

It's slightly healthier now but a lot of the new data goes into walled gardens and is hard to check reliably.  But in no way can you ever use the US market as a standin for the PC market.  It's like using the UK market sales to claim that the Commodore 64 still sells like hotcakes.  It doesn't.

[VeryOldMan]

Gents, you need to post more complete numbers.

 

All those big numbers for the US are because of consoles, NOT PC game sales.

 

And talking about EVE or other gigantic MMOs is totally irrelevant to the niche genre of WW2 air combat simulation.

 

Air combat simulation, of all eras, is a minuscule slice of the electronic gaming pie, and the biggest eater of that tiny slice of pie is Russia.  Sure those of us in the US probably spend more on hardware and peripherals, but total air combat sim sales?  No, and I doubt the number is even close.

 

I'll hit one of my sources and see what he says.  

 

 

I just brought data from a PC exclusive game, one of the few remaining  hardcore  PC exclusive games.   Unfortunately there are not many other examples. There is no data annalysis that will  bring  data  with precise  value over the appreciation of  specific  market over  the sim genre, simply this numbers  are unlikely to exist.  But what we point is that the  Whole PC market is still larger in US than anywhere else, just that. In RAW numbers there is more dollars  spent in PC games in US than in other countries.  You coudl darw  that same approximation by ANY PC exclusive game and you  would be very likely  gettign simmilar results  as long  as the other factors  were fair. You cannot take  world of tanks as a counter for example, because the game is extremely biased to satisfy the Russian community. You also  could not take a game  that was made to glorify the  US army  on its holy crusade  around the world, because the perception of the market would be biased.  That is why I improvised with a   VERY neutral game (EVE ONLINE)

 

As I stated earlier, I used to work  for a development studio ( still forbidden  to comment  about the studio and game in any form, so do  not even ask) , and  back then ( a few years ago, the discrepancy of US market to rest of the world was still MASSIVE.

 

They've already said BoS will not be an F2P, microtransaction game.

 

The reason I'm bringing up the PC share of video game sales is because someone thought that you could bung it in under "US video game market" which includes IOS, 360, Wii, and pass it off as huge.  That is not the PC games market!  Interestingly if we look at NPD's last figures -

 

 

 

It's slightly healthier now but a lot of the new data goes into walled gardens and is hard to check reliably.  But in no way can you ever use the US market as a standin for the PC market.  It's like using the UK market sales to claim that the Commodore 64 still sells like hotcakes.  It doesn't.

And  since when  there are no consoles in  Russian market?  All numbers from  any country willb e contaminated with that. Some more (like japan) some less. But its impossible to get PURE numbers.

[BlitzPig_EL]

 

 

As I stated,  EVE online market is closer to  sim market than  any console market  annalysis....

 

You cannot be serious.

 

The EVE player has no use for a niche title like a combat flight sim.  Their motivations for playing, and needs from a title are utterly different from a flight simulation owner.  

 

They cannot be in any way compared.

[VeryOldMan]

Going along with the very much single minded resoning of "giving the market what it wants", which allegdly only is 190's and Mustangs, we would have a very little else to fly, ever.

I  never said we should get only that. That would be stupid, sure.    But  taking too long to grant  alongside the rest is almost shooting your own foot marketwise.  On almost any product you  could produce, ignoring the US market is insane.. from  food  up to  luxury  boats.

 

You cannot be serious.

 

The EVE player has no use for a niche title like a combat flight sim.  Their motivations for playing, and needs from a title are utterly different from a flight simulation owner.  

 

They cannot be in any way compared.

I am very serius, for the reasons I stated in my other post.  There is no market data that can filter the "preferenes for   simmulator games". But eve online is one of the FEW  PC exclusive games that  has no  special reasons to be more successful in  one country than in other, therefore is a reasonable gounge of GENERAL  PC gaming market health. Not  a statement on the sim market, but only as in PC exclusive market.

[wiseblood]

I just brought data from a PC exclusive game, one of the few remaining  hardcore  PC exclusive games.   Unfortunately there are not many other examples.

Yeah, why is that, do you think? This is kind of what we're trying to get through here. The PC has not been well for a long time now. It's getting better but if you're looking at sticking a game in a box and selling it - it's not a great time, and hasn't been in the US for a long time now. In terms of boxed game sales, developing in and pushing hard in EU/Russia were pretty much the only way to make any real money for the last few years if you were selling on the PC.

There is no data annalysis that will  bring  data  with precise  value over the appreciation of  specific  market over  the sim genre, simply this numbers  are unlikely to exist.  But what we point is that the  Whole PC market is still larger in US than anywhere else, just that. In RAW numbers there is more dollars spent in PC games in US than in other countries. You coudl darw that same approximation by ANY PC exclusive game and you would be very likely gettign simmilar results as long as the other factors were fair.

Again, all I can do is repeat - yes, but. What you're talking about is a market absolutely dominated by casual, social, and MMO. You have to be careful what data you're using as a proxy here, because people playing angry birds on their netbook, or playing farmville on facebook, or playing WOW on their laptop, are not necessarily the people who are going to buy anything much else.

You cannot take  world of tanks as a counter for example, because the game is extremely biased to satisfy the Russian community. You also  could not take a game  that was made to glorify the  US army  on its holy crusade  around the world, because the perception of the market would be biased.  That is why I improvised with a   VERY neutral game (EVE ONLINE)

Again I'm not sure what point you're trying to make - World of Tanks seems like a much better standin for selling a flightsim than just about anything else we could think of to use - it is at least a competitive combat game set partly in the same era. It is an ... interesting idea you have there, that the reason EVE is a better proxy because ... WoT is ... biased? Are you quite sure that explains the way and where it sells? Really?

 

As I stated earlier, I used to work  for a development studio ( still forbidden  to comment  about the studio and game in any form, so do  not even ask) , and  back then ( a few years ago, the discrepancy of US market to rest of the world was still MASSIVE.

 

And  since when  there are no consoles in  Russian market?  All numbers from  any country willb e contaminated with that. Some more (like japan) some less. But its impossible to get PURE numbers.

To be honest this sounds like a bit of handwaving to me - how about I agree never to mention this bit of jazz hands you've given us here and we keep going on stuff we can at least vaguely cite?

 

[VeryOldMan]

If you cannot see  why WoT cannot be used    as a gauge.. then I have nothing to discuss with you.   The game  developers  stated clearly   several times that they only care for the Russian server players opinion on game balance? The result?  Russian tanks are not treated  not even close as US and german tanks. Its not a case of a game company that  does nto make as much success in US then they focus on  Russian players, its exact the opposite. When you treat  a costumer base well, it grows, you ignore it, and it shrinks.

 

WoT is completely invalid  tool to evaluate  worldwide market. Same thing woudl be  to use America's army  back  then when it launched. If you want  to  see how healthy the market is on   different countries you need  to  take  all the other variables out of the equation, specially clear bias on the  focus of the game.  If I make a computer game only in portuguese (ok extreme example.. but I want to be very clear) you cannot use it to gauge  anything about  market worldwide, because obviously  80% of its sales will be in Brazil 19% in Portugal and 1% on rest of world). If you make a game focused in russian tanks.. well  quite obvious the results.

 

 

I brought eve online because was the only  PC exclusive  that  published detailed data on world  demographics of their clients  that has  no reason  someone could claim the game to be biased into a certain  country.  There might be others? Yes, but I  do not have those by memory. Simple as that. People like to make a hassle  about everything instead of discussing the whole point of this discussion:   taking too long to add content to attract  European and US players  can doom this game  as much as  excessive goals  doomed the other game.

 

I wont discuss this subject anymore since people are more focused on  picking irrelevant semantic instead of growing up a discussion, a trend that has always been present  in the flightsim community. Maybe its  because of all those ancient threads about Spitfire Mk9  climb rate and Fw190 roll rates that rages for  weeks deviating all over  and touchign almost any subject possible, including   discussions of  king Kong could defeat godzilla or not (that  actually happened in old Ubi Forums)

[wiseblood]

That's weird, I look up and I see myself drilling into individual years and sales by countries, using the industry standard north american retail sales survey by year and market segment when talking about the US, finding quotes from publishers on their experience selling in the RU market, finding dollar figures that break down sales by digital retail, etc. I'm totally happy to debate any of those things with you. I'm just not sure I'm cut out for this conversation you want to have which seems to amount to - "EVE is the end-all of PC sales data because I say so" "WoT sells in Russia because of bias because I say so" "I worked for a mysterious company and it works like this because I say so". You've sure got me beat on that one!

[BlitzPig_EL]

One of our "fellow travellers" is from Brazil.

 

He estimates total sales of IL2 in his home country at less than 100 copies.  Just sayin'.

 

We are talking about combat flight simulations here, not MMOs,  They are not remotely the same in any metric you care to use, except that they happen to use the PC as their medium.

 

It does not matter that the US is a large market for electronic games overall, in terms of the combat flight simulation market it is small potatos compared to Russia and the EU.

[Crump]

One of our "fellow travellers" is from Brazil.

 

He estimates total sales of IL2 in his home country at less than 100 copies.  Just sayin'.

 

We are talking about combat flight simulations here, not MMOs,  They are not remotely the same in any metric you care to use, except that they happen to use the PC as their medium.

 

It does not matter that the US is a large market for electronic games overall, in terms of the combat flight simulation market it is small potatos compared to Russia and the EU.

 

Is this your gut feeling or based in facts? If it is based in facts feel free to share your facts with the discussion. I would be interested. If you actually read the articles, the picture is very different. The US is the largest market for PC games including air combat simulation.

 

 

[BlitzPig_EL]

It wasn't  back when IL2 was the rage, and this includes Pacific Fighters.

 

There were posts back on the old UBI forum about Russia being the biggest single market.

 

I'm trying to get some stats together.

[Crump]

Ok, I would like to see them.

[FlatSpinMan]

Just a reminder to one and all that if you assert something, back it up with verifiable evidence, otherwise no one has any reason to believe it.

 

Keep disagreements limited to facts only, and don't take or make them personally.

[Furio]

I would like to make some un-backed assumptions.

In my opinion, 777 has more data on sales, customers and potential market that all of us together.

In my opinion, they balanced this information with already available assets, development costs and time.

In my opinion, BoS and good ol???

[BlitzPig_EL]

Good post Furio.

 

I would like to say though that I'm American, and I find Midway about as exciting as watching paint dry.  In the great scheme of things, while historically important, it was a very short battle, as were all carrier engagements.

This is the whole problem with naval aviation in WW2, by and large. 

 

If you really wanted a campaign length "Pacific" air combat scenario, then New Guinea is the place.  It is the theater where the back of the Imperial Japanese Army Air Corps was broken. It went on for years, unlike a carrier engagment that went on for a couple days at best.

 

If 777 wanted to do a Pacific Theatre add on, then my money would go for New Guinea.  Lots of varied aircraft types, three Allied countries involved (US, Australia, New Zealand), and a big map that could include air superiority, ground attack, and yes, carrier scenarios.

 

Of course China would be great as well, but there are too many political considerations involved I'm afraid.

Edited February 16, 2013 by ElAurens