What planes were in this conflict?

[Bearcat]

Guess it depends on what market takes priority and what planesets are considered to be encapsulated by the Stalingrad campaigns. Including every plane considered to be "desirable", regardless of whether they fought around Stalingrad or not - the first operational Fw 190s were 800 miles away from Stalingrad - adds to the expense and development time, which is also risky and bad marketing.

So was Stalingrad the best choice for this launch? or could have we come back to Stalingrad after a strong planeset  and player base was in place,Starting a sim launch in 43 would have set the game up well to expanded into early campaigns or later campaingns with a stronger player base 

I don't know.. I think that if they are gong to take up the mantle of IL2 an Eastern front battle is the place to start and Stalingrad is just as good as any if the plan is a long term large scale one which I believe it is. If BoS delivers as I believe it will the initial theater is moot on the global scale..

 

From reading Developer Diary IV, the priority is to answer the expectations of the Russian market, which makes sense because Stalingrad is historically very significant to the Russians. Also note BoS should come out just after the release of a major Russian movie on Stalingrad in 3D and Imax 3D (I don't know whether this was planned, or a fortunate coincidence B) ). Once the basic game is established, as Freycinet has mentioned it should then be possible to release expansion packs which include other popular aircraft and campaigns.

 

Well there you go...as I said.. this all depends on BoS being good out of the box.. even if it is small.. it has to be good.. and IMO using the features and blueprint of IL2 is the best way to go. There is a reason why this sim is still .. 12 years later the milestone that it is.

[BlitzPig_EL]

OK, so I guess I better get on the fanboy band wagon...

 

 

I want a P 51 and I want it now, or else I'll start posting a bunch of meaningless charts, and stomp my feet and whine till I get what I want...

 

 

Sheesh...

[FlatSpinMan]

With the announcement of The Mighty Eighth, it gives hope they could release a new theatre and plane set to complement it when it comes out. That's be a good way to get some new fans, I'm sure.

[Bearcat]

OK, so I guess I better get on the fanboy band wagon...

 

I want a P 51 and I want it now, or else I'll start posting a bunch of meaningless charts, and stomp my feet and whine till I get what I want...

Sheesh...

 

Where is that coming from..?

 

With the announcement of The Mighty Eighth, it gives hope they could release a new theatre and plane set to complement it when it comes out. That's be a good way to get some new fans, I'm sure.

Perhaps.. it would be a good marketng strategy .. but then again consider how many people have HBO..

[SYN_Ricky]

With the announcement of The Mighty Eighth, it gives hope they could release a new theatre and plane set to complement it when it comes out. That's be a good way to get some new fans, I'm sure.

 

I think the main problem with today's sim representing the ETO would be the map, I don't think that the current ROF engine could handle a map going from southern England to Germany. At least not with a satisfactory level of detail..,

Edited January 24, 2013 by SYN_Ricky

[EAF19_Marsh]

The RAE report, while noting the prohibition on intentional spins, suggests that standard recovery proceedure should result in a fairly rapid result. That's quite a long way from the Il-2 /1946 experience where a recovery after 2 rotations was pretty difficult

[ImPeRaToR]

csThor, imo you've forgotten the Henschel Hs 123. In 1942 it was the main weapon of the newly founded Nahkampf-Fliegerverb???

Edited January 24, 2013 by hq_ImPeRaToR

[csThor]

 

 

Only one Staffel of SchlG1 was equipped with Hs123 (iirc 7./SchlG1), all the others were equipped with Bf109E-7 and E-7/U1 (additional radiator armor). Then there were one or two independant Hs129 staffeln with limited supplies of Mk101 which had proven very useful in the anti-armor role during the Kuban campaign iirc.

 

However, both Hs123 and Hs129 only served in numbers close to single digits (12-20?) since the 129 were also very unreliable and each 123 going down was lost for good, so I am afraid these two planes, which I would very much like to see myself, are not going to be very relevant for BOS. :|

 

You're mixing up several things.

 

1.) Yes, only 7./SchG 1 was still operating Hs 123s.

 

2.) You are, however, not correct about the Hs 129. The entire II./SchG 1 (minus 7./SchG 1) with three Staffeln was equipped with the Hs 129 B. The use of the Mk 101, however, was very limited due to the pilot's distrust of the weapon and the role they were intended to play.

 

3.) What you said about the "unreliability" of the Hs 129 is very much an "urban myth" which has two roots: the abysmal pre-production aircraft (which had very little in common with the later B-1 and B-2 serial production machines) and the completely mismanaged foray of a Staffel of SchG 2 to North Africa in 1942. On the Eastern Front the B-1 and B-2 were very popular with its pilots who liked the ruggedness, the reliability and the performance they found in the aircraft.

 

4.) The "Kuban Campaign" you speak of was the one in spring and early summer of 1943. By then at least two Staffeln of Hs 129 B-2 were operating as tank-busters from Anapa and gained much fame with the german infantry.

[Juri_JS]

I have seen a single combat report of a German pilot that mentions an encounter with P-39s over the Stalingrad pocket on 7 January 1943. In my opinion this is most likely a misidentification, maybe with the Yak-1b.
On the other hand I wonder if this can also be explained with the presence of VVS units in the area that didn't took part in regular combat operations but underwent retraining on the P-39. Does anyone know, if this could be a possiblity?

[ImPeRaToR]

[...]

2.) You are, however, not correct about the Hs 129. The entire II./SchG 1 (minus 7./SchG 1) with three Staffeln was equipped with the Hs 129 B.

[...]

 

 

Woops, you are correct. No idea how I missed this before

http://www.ww2.dk/air/attack/schg1.htm

Apparently, they did however start operating 109s again in November.

 

About the Mk101, iirc they tested them in limited numbers in 1942 and found them useful for anti-tank missions. IIRC in 1943, when they were used in larger numbers in a dedicated anti-tank roles, they were already using the MK103. But I might be mixing things up again However the Mk103 was indeed far more reliable and more suited for mass-usage as opposed to the MK101.

 

 

[...]

3.) What you said about the "unreliability" of the Hs 129 is very much an "urban myth" which has two roots: the abysmal pre-production aircraft (which had very little in common with the later B-1 and B-2 serial production machines) and the completely mismanaged foray of a Staffel of SchG 2 to North Africa in 1942. On the Eastern Front the B-1 and B-2 were very popular with its pilots who liked the ruggedness, the reliability and the performance they found in the aircraft.[...]

At least in 1943, servicable numbers would be quite low, however this might be explained by the severity of anti-aircraft fire and the low production numbers? Edited January 24, 2013 by hq_ImPeRaToR

[BlitzPig_EL]

Where is that coming from..?

 

Perhaps.. it would be a good marketng strategy .. but then again consider how many people have HBO..

 

Bearcat, just getting a bit impatient with all the FW 190 whiners and their constant harping to have an aircraft that should not be in this historical planeset, all to bag more kills online. 

 

Though I don't find their tactics and motivation too surprising.

[DD_fruitbat]

Bearcat, just getting a bit impatient with all the FW 190 whiners and their constant harping to have an aircraft that should not be in this historical planeset, all to bag more kills online. 

 

Though I don't find their tactics and motivation too surprising.

+1

 

It was not at Stalingrad. End of.

Edited January 24, 2013 by fruitbat

[Bearcat]

well now I know where it was coming from.

[ImPeRaToR]

From Schlachtflieger. Luftwaffe Ground-Attack Units 1937-1945, page 32:

 

[Krupi]

Were there any Bf 109 K-4s at Stalingrad?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well if RoF is anything to go by we will need the K variant as it will have the performance of the F....

 

 

 

 

 

-_-

Edited January 25, 2013 by JG52Krupi

[FlatSpinMan]

Locked temporarily while off topic content is moved to a new thread about, qu'elle surprise, Aircraft Performance.

[FlatSpinMan]

THREAD CLEANED. DO NOT POST ANY OTHER PERFORMANCE OR WEAPONRY RELATED TECHNICAL INFO HERE. 

 

Unfortunately I temporarily forgot how to move posts and so just copied them into new posts over in this thread on aircraft performance http://forum.il2sturmovik.net/topic/461-aircraft-performance-thread/?do=findComment&comment=8285 and this one on the Mk101http://forum.il2sturmovik.net/topic/463-mk-101-performance/ .

As soon as I had finished that tedious method I remembered the correct way to do it.

 

I'm unlocking the thread again. Keep discussion on-topic and civil. If someone bothers you, add them to your 'ignore' list.

[Crump]

The HS-129 would be an excellent addition to the planeset.

[4./JG53_Wotan]

From the book,"Hs 129 Panzerjager!" by Martin Pegg:

The following covers from November to December 1942 - covering the time frame announced for BoS:







From the book, "Aviation Elite Units 13: Luftwaffe Schlachtgruppen" by John Weal:

 

 

[brook]

Bearcat, just getting a bit impatient with all the FW 190 whiners and their constant harping to have an aircraft that should not be in this historical planeset, all to bag more kills online. 

 

Though I don't find their tactics and motivation too surprising.

EIAurens used to wet him self,every time a 190 came near him and and his formation flying fan boys   "the nite mares just dont go away do they "

Edited January 27, 2013 by brook

[BlitzPig_EL]

EIAurens used to wet him self,every time a 190 came near him and and his formation flying fan boys   "the nite mares just dont go away do they "

  What the hell are you talking about?

[NZTyphoon]

From the book,"Hs 129 Panzerjager!" by Martin Pegg:

 

The following covers from November to December 1942 - covering the time frame announced for BoS:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

From the book, "Aviation Elite Units 13: Luftwaffe Schlachtgruppen" by John Weal:

 

 

Good information - the Hs 129 is often overlooked. Also from Pegg, page 97

[ImPeRaToR]

Very interesting stats NZTyphoon, do you have the same for I./SchlG1?

[Bearcat]

EIAurens used to wet him self,every time a 190 came near him and and his formation flying fan boys   "the nite mares just dont go away do they "

You need to check yourself.

[NZTyphoon]

Very interesting stats NZTyphoon, do you have the same for I./SchlG1?

Unfortunately, on a quick look through, the book doesn't have a similar breakdown for I./Sch.G 1 - I only just received my copy from Amazon so haven't had much of a chance to do any in depth reading; 4./JG53 might be of more help. ^_^

Edited January 29, 2013 by NZTyphoon

[BlitzPig_EL]

In some ways I'd personally rather have and fly the HS 123, but the 129 would be a very good aircraft to have.  It would be a very good counterbalance to the IL2.

[FlatSpinMan]

I'm with you, El. To fly the Hs 123 looks fun, but the 129 would be the real killer.

[DD_fruitbat]

Wasn't the HS 129 a real dog to fly irl, or am i confusing it with something else?

[AX2]

Was a small Plane heavy armored  and Had a very successful use in combat

 

 

[4./JG53_Wotan]

In some ways I'd personally rather have and fly the HS 123, but the 129 would be a very good aircraft to have. It would be a very good counterbalance to the IL2.

There were no Hs 123s in service suring the time frame announced for BoS - November - December 1943.

Wasn't the HS 129 a real dog to fly irl, or am i confusing it with something else?

From Pegg's book:

 

[Crump]

Was a small Plane heavy armored and Had a very successful use in combat

 

 

Great Picture!  I bet that thing was a blast to fly.

[von_Tom]

As long as your Frederick has a 15mm 151 while i'm flying a yak, i will be happy

 

 

You might be surprised if the popguns are as effective as they are in CLOD.

 

I hope so!

 

Hood

 

ps  Jabo rules so I hope they have the Jabo variants of all aircraft.  The FW190 can wait.

[ImPeRaToR]

109F-2s got the 151/20 retrofitted during Operation Barbarossa or even before that iirc - don't quote me on this though

[Duckman]

Recon aircraft would be a great addon for future game.  .

 

Agreed. Recon missions could be great fun, but you need some kind of quantifiable goal like "count the planes at airbase X" (with an answer required at the end of the mission) or "photograph Y".

 

The only game that really took recon missions seriously was Falcon 4 (which is no surprise since it took everything seriously). There you were required to photograph an object from a certain slant range.

[ImPeRaToR]

There were no Hs 123s in service suring the time frame announced for BoS - November - December 1943.

[...]

 

How come they lost at least one at stalingrad then? (source: http://de.scribd.com/doc/80632675/Henschel-Hs-123)

 

edit: also this:

 

 

 

Btw the timeframe is November 1942 - February 1943 if I am not mistaken.

Edited February 3, 2013 by hq_ImPeRaToR

[MiloMorai]

Afaik there was no SG 1 till Oct 1943. There was a Sch.G.1 tho.

[csThor]

That's the unit meant. It's a common error to mix up the earlier SchGs with the later SGs.

[VeryOldMan]

without a FW190 I can't buy this game,the unique plane I like to fly to the death, but when you itroduce the plane I will buy your game

Basically same here. I did not bought CoD not because of  performance   or reviews. I did not bought it because there was no FW190.

[BlitzPig_EL]

So, you won't support a title that needs it, in a genre that is shrinking, because you can't get your point whore plane?

 

I cannot understand this mind set.  If this title does not have support at the beginning it could be in trouble, as the publisher, 1C, has already taken a major hit

on it's last WW2 flight sim fiasco.

 

But you 190 guys would rather stomp your feet and whine because your favorite plane is not in it?

 

Sad, very sad.

[Crump]

 

If this title does not have support at the beginning it could be in trouble, as the publisher, 1C, has already taken a major hit

on it's last WW2 flight sim fiasco.

 

 

 

ElAurens is right.  If the game does not have sales, then it will not survive and be developed. 

 

At the same time, if the developer does not meet the needs of the marketplace, they won't have sales either.  It has to be some teamwork and some trust in that relationship.