What planes were in this conflict?

[DD_fruitbat]

Ha like your going to get in the air! Before your know whats happening you will have a SC50 ticking away on your lap

 

Who says your going to get in the air yourself, my mates in an il2 or pe2 might have a word to say about that

 

_{Must be a first, smack talk over a year before release!}

[BlitzPig_EL]

Who says your going to get in the air yourself, my mates in an il2 or pe2 might have a word to say about that

 

_{Must be a first, smack talk over a year before release!}

  Yeah!!!!

 

And I'll come over at night in a Po 2 and drop an AO 10 in your mess so you have to fly hungry too...

[Faustnik]

  Yeah!!!!

 

And I'll come over at night in a Po 2 and drop an AO 10 in your mess so you have to fly hungry too...

Recon aircraft would be a great addon for future game.  HSFX 6 has some great recon flyable planes.

[FTC_Karaya]

As long as your Frederick has a 15mm 151 while i'm flying a yak, i will be happy

 

Depends on the model but keep in mind that many of the F-2/-3 models were retrofitted with the MG151/20 in service which at the turn of '42 would probably have been complete given that the 15mm Mauser was replaced entirely by the 20mm in production. Hope that this is taken into account with BoS in case we get a Bf109F-2 or F-3! It could be implemented as a tick box like the RoF weapon mods are right now and maybe with a date restriction as seen in one of the latest IL-2 patches on top of it!

 

And yes, bombs on the 109s are a must, I cannot believe that Oleg never bothered fleshing out some of the dangerously lacking Bf109s!

Edited January 16, 2013 by JG52Karaya

[4./JG53_Wotan]

And yes, bombs on the 109s are a must,

Why?

 

Since the announcement of BoS there has been talk about "simulation" and "realism". Granted this was mostly related to click pits and the like. However, Bf 109 pilots could not just load any ordnance they wanted. For BoS, during Nov. 19 through Dec. 23 1942, the only day fighter units in the area were JG 3 and JG 52. How much Jabo did they fly? How many Bf 109 Fs were toting bombs?

 

During this time frame only elements of Schlachtgeschwader 1 in Bf 109Es were flying JaBo.

 

I don't doubt that bombs will be included with the Bf 109s in BoS - at least in RoF they gave bombs and / or bomb load-outs to some aircraft that did not even have them. However, there is a good argument that can be made based on "simulation" and "realism" to only permit load-outs that were historically accurate to the time frame and theater. In that context I do not think ???

[DD_Arthur]

Depends on the model but keep in mind that many of the F-2/-3 models were retrofitted with the MG151/20 in service which at the turn of '42 would probably have been complete given that the 15mm Mauser was replaced entirely by the 20mm in production. Hope that this is taken into account with BoS in case we get a Bf109F-2 or F-3!

 

Oh yes please!  Then at least some of FruitBats friends will be riding shotgun on him in a Blue stylee B)

[DD_fruitbat]

Oh yes please!  Then at least some of FruitBats friends will be riding shotgun on him in a Blue stylee B)

 

Lol, guess i will be challenging you for my first fight in the dogfight ladder over at the Dogz then,  B)

[DD_Arthur]

Lol, guess i will be challenging you for my first fight in the dogfight ladder over at the Dogz then,  B)

 

Not me  !  I flew that 'orrible Zero twice last night  .  I'm open to offers on the Hurricane though.     'Course we all know that if Mitsubishi had equipped it with an elecrically operated high velocity twenty mike-mike firing through the propellor boss then MidWay would have been an away win!!   Oops, who lit that flame-thrower?    

[DD_fruitbat]

haha, you didn't read the rules, i can challenge up, and i don't fell unwell anymore! :o

[Crump]

Demyansk was over well before the Fw 190 saw service on the Eastern Front.

 

The Demyansk Mushroom was the major action I/JG 51's FW-190's were employed since arriving on the Eastern Front in September 1942.

 

 

 

In August 1942 Hauptmann Heinrich Krafft's I. Gruppe of Jagdgeschwader 51 converted to the Focke-Wulf 190 at Jesau, near K???

Edited January 17, 2013 by Crump

[MiloMorai]

The Demyansk Pocket

 

Date: 8 February 1942 - 20 May 1942

[csThor]

Ah, yes ... that's where the error is. Had the person written Staraya Russa then I wouldn't have objected but as Milo pointed out the Demyansk operation ended in May already.

[LukeFF]

Were there any Bf 109 K-4s at Stalingrad?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[csThor]

[NZTyphoon]

The Demyansk Pocket

 

Date: 8 February 1942 - 20 May 1942

...Only about 800 miles (c. 1,275 km) from Stalingrad, as the Fw 190 flies...                            

 

Regarding the Il2: because both the single and two seat versions were operational at Stalingrad which would be preferable for BoS (or will both be modelled)?

Edited January 17, 2013 by NZTyphoon

[Crump]

 

Milo pointed out the Demyansk operation ended in May already.

 

 

 

 

 

Demyansk 1942-43: The frozen fortress (Campaign)

 

 

 

 

The fighting around the town of Demyansk was one of the longest encirclement battles on the Eastern Front during the Second World War, stretching from February 1942 to February 1943. Originally, the German 16. Armee occupied Demyansk in the fall of 1941 because it was key terrain - a crossroads located on high ground amidst a sea of swampy terrain - that would be used as a springboard for an eventual offensive into the Valdai Hills. Instead, the Soviet winter counteroffensive in February 1942 encircled the German II Armeekorps and other units, totalling about 100,000 troops, inside the Demyansk Pocket. Another pocket was also created around Kholm, with another 5,000 Germans inside. Yet despite severe pounding from five Soviet armies, the embattled German troops held the pocket and the Luftwaffe organized a major aerial resupply effort to sustain the defenders. For the first time in military history, an army was supplied entirely by air.

 

After stopping the Soviet winter counteroffensive, the German 16. Armee mounted two major relief efforts to rescue their trapped forces in the Demyansk and Kholm pockets, which were finally relieved in April-May 1942. During the siege, the crack 3. SS-Division 'Totenkopf' was virtually destroyed, suffering 80 per cent casualties. However, Hitler demanded that the 12 divisions of II Armeekorps remain in the narrow Demyansk salient, whose base was only 6km wide. Throughout the summer and autumn of 1942, the Soviets pounded the salient from all sides, inflicting heavy casualties on the defenders. In February 1943, Marshal Timoshenko was ordered to launch an offensive to cut off the base of the salient and annihilate the 12 divisions. At the same time, Hitler finally came to his senses after the Stalingrad debacle and authorized the 16. Armee to withdraw from the pocket. Thus, the Germans began to withdraw just as Timoshenko opened his grand offensive to cut them off and destroy almost 100,000 German troops. This volume will conclude with the drama of a German army-size withdrawal under fire in winter, under attack from three sides.

 

 

 

http://www.amazon.com/Demyansk-1942-43-frozen-fortress-Campaign/dp/1849085528

[NZTyphoon]

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.amazon.com/Demyansk-1942-43-frozen-fortress-Campaign/dp/1849085528

 

And this impacted on Stalingrad how?

[Crump]

And this impacted on Stalingrad how?

 

 

It  did not but it might impact game sales by allowing a very popular addition to the line up for little development effort. 

[TJT]

It  did not but it might impact game sales by allowing a very popular addition to the line up for little development effort. 

Little? FW 190's would require a new map, and given the teams visions a bland generic one seems a bit unlikley.

[JG4Helofly]

I am not an expert in these FM problems, but why is it so difficult to find RL performance of an aircraft? If you know the relevant data of the aircraft you want to model, it is possible to calculate max speed, climb and even turn performance. They did it back then. Look at Kurf????rst's web page. There is a document from Messerschmitt which shows calculated performance for the 109 F4. So where is the problem?

[FlatSpinMan]

Please start a separate thread for aircraft performance. It is relevant to the forum but not this particular thread.

And it needs to be done civilly.

[[CV]Biggs]

Didn't the Soviets use the P-39 around the summer of '42?   I know it was very popular with Russian pilots.

[SYN_Ricky]

Didn't the Soviets use the P-39 around the summer of '42?   I know it was very popular with Russian pilots.

 

The first P-39 were used on the Murmansk front, I think they appeared in numbers on the Southern front from the late winter/spring 1943...

Edited January 22, 2013 by SYN_Ricky

[NZTyphoon]

Didn't the Soviets use the P-39 around the summer of '42?   I know it was very popular with Russian pilots.

AFAIK the main units that used the P-400 (Airacobra I with British 20mm Hispano) and P-39D, K and Ls were not based in the combat area around Stalingrad; as SYN has noted the first  (19 GIAP was the first unit to use them) were based up around Murmansk.

 

 

http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/golodnikov/part3.htm

[NZTyphoon]

It  did not but it might impact game sales by allowing a very popular addition to the line up for little development effort. 

I get the feeling the development team have a better idea of what their goals and options are than this would suggest. For one thing they have accumulated accurate geographic and climactic data for the Stalingrad region - to do so for the Demayansk area and campaign, and to replicate it accurately, would need a similar process, with the time and expense that would entail. Nor is there a guarantee that this would be a "popular addition".

Edited January 23, 2013 by NZTyphoon

[Crump]

Demayansk area and campaign

 

 

Who said anything about asking for any such thing.

 

Look, it is simple marketing.  The FW-190 is the most popular aircraft in recent polls to be an addition to the game.  If they want to make the sales, they will have to produce what the market desires.

 

 

Apparently Crumpp is confusing a turbo-supercharger with a supercharger..

 

No just repeating what I have read.

 

It appears that many authors have confused a sea level engine with an altitude engine assuming the sea level engine is not supercharged.

 

The Allison V-1710E4 was a sea level engine.  The engine did have a poor single stage supercharger but it is still a sea level engine.

[[CV]Biggs]

Well its a damn shame that the Airacobra probably won't be in the game.  Most of the top scoring Russian aces flew the P-39 for alot of their victories.  I was really hoping it would be included...........  

[Crump]

Well its a damn shame that the Airacobra probably won't be in the game.

 

I hope they include it too.

[MiloMorai]

I can understand a detested 'gamer' making such an error but not by one who is such an aviation expert.

[[CV]Biggs]

After doing some research I believe the P-39N could be included.   The games time frame is the start of Operation Uranus, Nov 19th 1942.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Uranus 

 

Soviets units were flying the P-39N by that time. http://acepilots.com/planes/p39_airacobra.html         See time frames for P-39 deployments at the bottom of the page.

 

Of course this would all depend on if my sources are correct.  

 

Crosses fingers.

[FlatSpinMan]

Aces and Milo - leave that baggage behind. New forums let us all start over. I don't know the background to this petty crap, nor do I care to find out.

Do not cast aspersions on another member and JUST STOP ANTAGONIZING people. How hard is that to do?!

 

 

[Bearcat]

No worries!

The important part is you realized your error!!

And have taken corrective action..

Just glad that Milo and I could help!

In that I realize we are all human and prone to errors and thus need help from time to time..

 

But to be honest..

I can understand how a gamer might make such a mistake..

But how does a pilot with 'half' the experience and background you say you have make such a mistake?

I mean how many years have you been posting in forums wrt the P-39 and didn't know this simple truth?

 

I guess it just goes to show that even pilots are human!

At the same time, it does shed some light on your position wrt other planes both past and present..

Maybe your positions, both pro and con, are also based on false information?

That is something to consider in your future posts!

The bright side here is, that with time, as you find out more about certain planes, we can look forward to your position changing on them too.

 

I can understand a detested 'gamer' making such an error but not by one who is such an aviation expert.

You both are treading on very thin ice. I see FSM is on the same page.. You need to stop this now. This is the last warning you will get. Ace you have been walking the fence for a few days .. enough. Reign it in.

 

What is detested here is this kind of nonsense and it will not be tolerated for long.. count on it.

[NZTyphoon]

After doing some research I believe the P-39N could be included.   The games time frame is the start of Operation Uranus, Nov 19th 1942.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Uranus

 

Soviets units were flying the P-39N by that time. http://acepilots.com/planes/p39_airacobra.html         See time frames for P-39 deployments at the bottom of the page.

 

Of course this would all depend on if my sources are correct.  

 

Crosses fingers.

 

Hmmm, interesting...the question then would be whether any P-39 units were involved? P-39s escorting IL2s....

[NZTyphoon]

Who said anything about asking for any such thing.

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.net/topic/26-what-planes-were-in-this-conflict/page-4?do=findComment&comment=7682

http://forum.il2sturmovik.net/topic/26-what-planes-were-in-this-conflict/?p=7807

 

Much as the 190 would be desirable etc, there are plenty of aircraft types which were used during the Stalingrad campaigns, and simply adding new ones because a couple of "recent polls" suggest them is not good marketing - it is simply adding to the costs and complications of getting a new game up and running with, hopefully, as few problems as possible.

[Crump]

None of those post typhoon say anything about asking for anything for this game.  It is a discussion on the introduction of the FW-190 to the Eastern Front during the battle of Stalingrad.

[brook]

http://forum.il2sturmovik.net/topic/26-what-planes-were-in-this-conflict/page-4?do=findComment&comment=7682

http://forum.il2sturmovik.net/topic/26-what-planes-were-in-this-conflict/?p=7807

 

Much as the 190 would be desirable etc, there are plenty of aircraft types which were used during the Stalingrad campaigns, and simply adding new ones because a couple of "recent polls" suggest them is not good marketing - it is simply adding to the costs and complications of getting a new game up and running with, hopefully, as few problems as possible.

Choosing a campaign that leaves out popular planesets is risky and bad marketing ! choosing a campaign that in encapsulates major planesets will attract more players first up then develop the small less known campaign has to be the move forward

[NZTyphoon]

Choosing a campaign that leaves out popular planesets is risky and bad marketing ! choosing a campaign that in encapsulates major planesets will attract more players first up then develop the small less known campaign has to be the move forward

Guess it depends on what market takes priority and what planesets are considered to be encapsulated by the Stalingrad campaigns. Including every plane considered to be "desirable", regardless of whether they fought around Stalingrad or not - the first operational Fw 190s were 800 miles away from Stalingrad - adds to the expense and development time, which is also risky and bad marketing.

[brook]

Guess it depends on what market takes priority and what planesets are considered to be encapsulated by the Stalingrad campaigns. Including every plane considered to be "desirable", regardless of whether they fought around Stalingrad or not - the first operational Fw 190s were 800 miles away from Stalingrad - adds to the expense and development time, which is also risky and bad marketing.

So was Stalingrad the best choice for this launch? or could have we come back to Stalingrad after a strong planeset  and player base was in place,Starting a sim launch in 43 would have set the game up well to expanded into early campaigns or later campaingns with a stronger player base 

[Freycinet]

to me it sounds as if it makes perfect sense to have a compelling sim come out one year, and then in a later release a really compelling plane like the "W????rger". Spreading out the goodies should make for more sales, IMHO. 

[NZTyphoon]

So was Stalingrad the best choice for this launch? or could have we come back to Stalingrad after a strong planeset  and player base was in place,Starting a sim launch in 43 would have set the game up well to expanded into early campaigns or later campaingns with a stronger player base 

From reading Developer Diary IV, the priority is to answer the expectations of the Russian market, which makes sense because Stalingrad is historically very significant to the Russians. Also note BoS should come out just after the release of a major Russian movie on Stalingrad in 3D and Imax 3D (I don't know whether this was planned, or a fortunate coincidence B) ). Once the basic game is established, as Freycinet has mentioned it should then be possible to release expansion packs which include other popular aircraft and campaigns.

 

(For more info on the film see here and here)

Edited January 24, 2013 by NZTyphoon