What planes were in this conflict?

[MiloMorai]

2.6.42 - 27.10.42 Piestany   Bf 109E 27.10.42 - 4.1.43 Maikop   Bf 109E 4.1.43 - 30.1.43 Krasnodar   Bf 109E/F 30.1.43 - 16.2.43 Sslawjanskaja   Bf 109F

 

Bases for 13.(slow.)/JG 52

 

9.42 - 15.11.42 Maikop   Bf 109G 10.42 - 1.43 Croatia   Bf 109G 1.43 - 1.44 Grammatikowo(?)   Bf 109G

 

Bases for 15. (kroat.)/JG52

[4./JG53_Wotan]

If I am not totally mistaken both the slovakian and the croatian Staffel within JG 52 served on the coast of the Black Sea - a long way from the map limits we've been told.

I will need to check further but:

 

According to:

 

http://www.ww2.dk/air/jagd/jg52.htm

 

Stab/JG 52:

 

19.9.42 - 23.11.42 Prochladny

23.11.42 - 30.12.42 Maikop

30.12.42 - 20.1.43 Gigant

 

II./JG 52

 

29.10.42 - 24.11.42 Maikop

26.11.42 - 12.12.42 Morosowskaja-West

12.12.42 - 17.12.42 Simowniki

17.12.42 - 26.12.42 Kutelnikowo

 

III./JG 52

 

19.9.42 - 30.12.42 Ssoldatskaja

 

9./JG52 at Plastunowskaja (12.8.42 - 18.8.42); Kommando/KG52 at Tusow (21.8.42 - 11.9.42) and Pitomnik (11.9.42 - 27.9.42); 8. and 9./JG52 at Mineralnyie Wody to 15.1.43

 

13.(slow.)/JG 52

 

27.10.42 - 4.1.43 Maikop

 

15.(Kroat.)/JG 52

 

9.42 - 15.11.42 Maikop

10.42 - 1.43 Croatia

 

With 15.(Kroat.)/JG 52 the info. is contradictory on that web page ???

[4./JG53_Wotan]

What is wrong with transports? A Ju 290 was never anything but a transport, and planes like the FW200 and the He177 where used as bombers in other theaters.

Believe it or not there are people who find unrealistic fur balls the most boring thing to waste time on.

There is nothing wrong with those planes but you said:

No one has mentioned the FW 200 the Ju 290 the Ju 86 the He 177 all where there at Stalingrad

Which btw is not true as the He 177 was mentioned in this thread.

 

However, the lack of interest in supply planes probably has more to do with the nature of air combat games - i.e. air combat. If you just want to "drive a bus" straight and level from poitn A to B there are several other non-combat aircraft games that do that kind of thing better.

planes like the FW200 and the He177 where used as bombers in other theaters.

Both the Fw 200 and He 177 were used in realitively meaningless numbers in any theater you can point to. Their usefulness in any theater is questionable compared to the basic staple LW plane set. I do not care if they are included or not but by no means are they important or crucial to any theater.

 

 

 

 

[VaeTibi]

There is nothing wrong with those planes but you said:

 

Which btw is not true as the He 177 was mentioned in this thread.

 

However, the lack of interest in supply planes probably has more to do with the nature of air combat games - i.e. air combat. If you just want to "drive a bus" straight and level from poitn A to B there are several other non-combat aircraft games that do that kind of thing better.

 

Both the Fw 200 and He 177 were used in realitively meaningless numbers in any theater you can point to. Their usefulness in any theater is questionable compared to the basic staple LW plane set. I do not care if they are included or not but by no means are they important or crucial to any theater.

 

 

 

Sorry wrong, I fly missions, some might think fur balls are the icing on the cake when it comes to flight sims, I do not share that view, and with out logistics not one fighter would have left the ground. But I suppose you are not familiar with tournaments like SEOW? Transport planes unimportant, that is a good one!

Even with IL2 over 90% only bombers for me, as they are far more challenging than those little wizz dings everyone else favors.

 

Maybe spend a bit of time checking up what role the transport planes really played at Stalingrad.

 

Looks like some "armchair generals" think fighters won a war, or played more of a role than a defensive one? It was the big birds, the bombers that had the real impact.

But of course for those whose  only interest in vintage aircraft is, "does it make bang or boom and is it fast" a little reshaping of historical facts is very favorable.

Using your words, fighters played also a rather minor role in Stalingrad, why not dump them? <_<

[MineFewer]

There were also several Boston units operating in the VVS from the early summer of '42. Not sure if there were any engaged during the battle itself though.

Yes there were A-20's in action in Dec 42, according to this book 

Red Christmas - The Tatsinskaya Airfield Raid 1942:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007M1GH3E/ref=kinw_myk_ro_title

 

And the Boston seems to be a very significant bomber of that time.

[JG1_Pragr]

Yes there were A-20's in action in Dec 42, according to this book 

Red Christmas - The Tatsinskaya Airfield Raid 1942:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007M1GH3E/ref=kinw_myk_ro_title

 

And the Boston seems to be a very significant bomber of that time.

 

Can you add some unit numbers? It's just for my information because yesterday I found the order of battle of 8VA, 17VA and some general numbers about 18VA (all from middle of November '42) and I was surprised there were no bombers listed except few Pe-2 (actually up to 10). That's seems really strange to me unless these VAs were intended as direct support.

 

Thanks

Edited January 15, 2013 by JG1_Pragr

[FlatSpinMan]

Easy on the comments about other players' aircraft preferences, guys.

It's starts off just a bit snippy, then the more overt insults slip in. And then the running and screaming starts.

[4./JG53_Wotan]

Sorry wrong, I fly missions, some might think fur balls are the icing on the cake when it comes to flight sims, I do not share that view, and with out logistics not one fighter would have left the ground. But I suppose you are not familiar with tournaments like SEOW?

You have no idea who I am or what I play.

 

Maybe spend a bit of time checking up what role the transport planes really played at Stalingrad.

You have no idea what knowledge I have in regrads to the Stalingrad Airlift.

 

 

Looks like some "armchair generals" think fighters won a war, or played more of a role than a defensive one?

No one said anything about "fighters winning WW2". You wrote:

 

 

No one has mentioned the FW 200 the Ju 290 the Ju 86 the He 177 all where there at Stalingrad

My reply was the He 177 was mentioned and since this is an air combat game and players will be more concerned about things like "air combat". Air combat does not mean "furball to the death in a fighter".

Edited January 15, 2013 by 4./JG53_Wotan

[VaeTibi]

No worries, problem solved, with ignore list.

[FlatSpinMan]

"Ignore-ance is bliss."

 

That said, not ignoring people but simply exercising more politeness in posting and more respect for others' preferences would prevent the need for that function.

[Krupi]

Those planes you listed were only used as heavy transports. If you are advocating their use as bombers for BoS then that would not be "realistic". Since this is an "air combat" game there probably won't be a lot of players calling out for those types of aircraft. Believe it or not in an "air combat" game most players actaully prefer air combat.

Okay so let's remove all the bombers! Screw that I am a ground pounder, they can't make it just a dog fight game...

[III/JG11_Simmox]

id suggest getting a copy of IL2 compare and have a look at the data

you will find that the migs and yaks of the period, are quite capable of mixing it with the 109's

assuming you fly them accordingly

[FlatSpinMan]

... they can't make it just a dog fight game...

No-one is saying they will. 

[VaeTibi]

No-one is saying they will. 

I don?

[4./JG53_Wotan]

Okay so let's remove all the bombers! Screw that I am a ground pounder, they can't make it just a dog fight game...

We were talking about the FW 200 the Ju 290 the Ju 86 the He 177 in the context of BoS in which those planes were just used as heavy transports not as "bombers".

 

The other guy said:

No one has mentioned the FW 200 the Ju 290 the Ju 86 the He 177 all where there at Stalingrad

My reply was:

However, the lack of interest in supply planes probably has more to do with the nature of air combat games - i.e. air combat. If you just want to "drive a bus" straight and level from poitn A to B there are several other non-combat aircraft games that do that kind of thing better.

No where did anyone in this thread (me included) write that there should be no bombers at all and BoS should just be a DF game.

 

I even said:

There is nothing wrong with those planes...

and

I do not care if they are included or not...

 

 

 

 

[csThor]

Well, considering the amount of work a 3D model takes these days I doubt you'll see some of the "more obscure" (= numerically not that significant) types such asthe Ju 86 or Ju 290. I think we shouldn't hope for more than the Ju 52 and the He 111 (which were ordered to fly primarily supply sorties) as transports.

[4./JG53_Wotan]

It only gets you when one has read many books, from people who where there,

 

even had the honor of talking to two personally, and then reading, strange posts about

 

"insignificant" aircraft that more or less played no role, and remarks of "you don?

[FlatSpinMan]

Not interested in who started this bitchy little squabble, but it can stop right now, thank you.

 

Summary to date.

Someone thinks transports and heavies are important.

Someone else may or may not.

Such models may or may not be included in the game.

 

No serious slagging or sniping has taken place but I'm going to hand out a few warnings just so people get that you need to rise above, to refrain from the zingy little sentences to score points.

Next intervention gets the thread locked. 

[FTC_Karaya]

I just wanted to point out there is a problem with F-4 performance especially from developers point of view because this usualy means two opposite groups in one player community. Basically one claims max speed has to be higher than 635 (up to 670km/h) and one claims it should be 635 at best.

 

Honestly I dont see the problem here! 635kmh is as said the topspeed @1.32ata and 2500rpm which corresponds to ~1250PS, there's no denying. That the Bf109F-4 obviously would be faster using 1.42ata and 2700rpm (1350PS) is I think quite logical, by how much exactly is the question. Again I would deem a topspeed of 650kmh reasonable

[4./JG53_Wotan]

Summary to date.

 

Someone thinks transports and heavies are important.

 

Someone else may or may not.

 

Such models may or may not be included in the game.

Thats not really accurrate but whatever...

 

 

Honestly I dont see the problem here! 635kmh is as said the topspeed @1.32ata and 2500rpm which corresponds to ~1250PS, there's no denying. That the Bf109F-4 obviously would be faster using 1.42ata and 2700rpm (1350PS) is I think quite logical, by how much exactly is the question. Again I would deem a topspeed of 650kmh reasonable

650km/h seems about right but let's face it once we get to actually fly the planes there will be plenty of threads where FM complaining will be in full swing. We will just have to wait and see for now...

Edited January 15, 2013 by 4./JG53_Wotan

[FlatSpinMan]

Believe it or not in an "air combat" game most players actaully prefer air combat.     UNHELPFUL, INFLAMMATORY.

 

 

Believe it or not there are people who find unrealistic fur balls the most boring thing to waste time on.    SARCASTIC, INFLAMMATORY, UNHELPFUL.

 

 

 If you just want to "drive a bus" straight and level from point A to B there are several other non-combat aircraft games that do that kind of thing better.

INCENDIARY, UTTERLY UNNECCESSARY. LOOKING FOR TROUBLE AND HAS FOUND IT. OTHERWISE WAS A DECENT POST.

 

 

 

 some might think fur balls are the icing on the cake when it comes to flight sims, I do not share that view,

 

But I suppose you are not familiar with tournaments like SEOW? PRESUMPTUOUS, POT-STIRRING, SUPERCILIOUS.

Even with IL2 over 90% only bombers for me, as they are far more challenging than those little wizz dings everyone else favors.  BELITTLING, JUST BEGGING FOR RETALIATION.

 

But of course for those whose  only interest in vintage aircraft is, "does it make bang or boom and is it fast" a little reshaping of historical facts is very favorable.

UNNECCESSARY ROUGHNESS. CONDESCENDING.

 

 

Okay so let's remove all the bombers! Screw that I am a ground pounder, they can't make it just a dog fight game... HYPERBOLIC.

[FlatSpinMan]

So apparently a "Warning" actually results in a temporary ability to post new content. Who knew? I really thought it was just a warning.

Anyway, thank you to those who have calmly kept proceedings on topic the whole time.

I think aircraft performance is a topic for another thread (preferably for another forum 'cos those topics never end well    ).

[FlatSpinMan]

Posting a message on behalf of Wotan who thought this might interest some of us.

 

 

 

4./JG53_Wotan said:

======================================================================

 

Yes there were A-20's in action in Dec 42, according to this book 

Red Christmas - The Tatsinskaya Airfield Raid 1942 : 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007M1GH3E/ref=kinw_myk_ro_title (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007M1GH3E/ref=kinw_myk_ro_title)

 

And the Boston seems to be a very significant bomber of that time.

-----------------------------

 

 

 

From Tony Wood's Combat Claims & Casualties Lists (http://lesbutler.co.uk/claims/tonywood.htm)

 

Eastern Front Vol 2. Aug to Dec 1942 (PDF file) (http://lesbutler.co.uk/claims/easternfront_aug_dec1942pdf.zip)

 

Starting with 19 November 1942 and running through the stated time frame for BoS both JG 3 and JG 52 have multiple claims for "Boston III". Now it should be noted that claims are just that "claims" and many times the aircraft claimed is misidentified From that same link and time frame you see claims made by JG 3 and JG 52 of aircraft that just were not in theater so take the above with a gain of salt...

======================================================================

[Krupi]

I think aircraft performance is a topic for another thread (preferably for another forum 'cos those topics never end well ).

Hee hee... Good luck with the FM threads your going to need it, it's an area that I stay away from... Full of FM warriors aka armchair generals that haven't been in a cockpit let alone a ww2 fighter :D.

 

I hope they don't make a mistake of having a "bar" in the 190 when it finally arrives then your really will be in for a roughy time :O

[FTC_Karaya]

I also fear that the infamous bar will make a return...

 

Took ages to get it removed in IL-2 in an official patch - only after Oleg handed over IL-2 support to TD - and a number of other modern WWII sims (or rather games) have it "featured" as well... *cough* Wings of Prey, War Thunder *cough*

[csThor]

Something about the Boston sparked a memory ... so I went looking into my bookshelf for BC/RS 3. And really the Boston made its debut over the Eastern Front even before "Blue" was launched.

 

2nd Air Army - 244. BAD (Voronezh Front & Southwestern Front)

4th Air Army - 221. BAD (shifted to 8th Air Army - Southern & Transcaucasus Front for 4th VA, Southwestern & Stalingrad Front for 8th VA, first operational mission on June 26)

4th Air Army - 219. BAD (late summer, Transcaucasus Front)

 

All flew Bostons during the 2nd half of 1942.

Edited January 15, 2013 by csThor

[SYN_Ricky]

Hee hee... Good luck with the FM threads your going to need it, it's an area that I stay away from... Full of FM warriors aka armchair generals that haven't been in a cockpit let alone a ww2 fighter :D.

 

I hope they don't make a mistake of having a "bar" in the 190 when it finally arrives then your really will be in for a roughy time :o

 

[Krupi]

 

LOL love it 

[MineFewer]

Can you add some unit numbers? It's just for my information because yesterday I found the order of battle of 8VA, 17VA and some general numbers about 18VA (all from middle of November '42) and I was surprised there were no bombers listed except few Pe-2 (actually up to 10). That's seems really strange to me unless these VAs were intended as direct support.

 

Thanks

221st BAD is the only unit name cited.

 

you're welcome!

[Crump]

The FW-190 will be one of the most popular additional aircraft in the Luftwaffe inventory as well as being the other major SE fighter on the Axis side.  Having it as an additional aircraft using the ROF business model is sure to be a money maker for 777.

[=BKHZ=Furbs]

Of course it will be a additional aircraft, crazy not to do it that way.

We want the Med eventually dont we?

Edited January 16, 2013 by Furbs

[DD_fruitbat]

Its silly to introduce it until there's a map suitable imo, whether its popular or not.

 

Otherwise you might as well start adding in Spitfires, Mustangs and whatever as money spinners.

 

+10000 for the Med and a FW 190 and all the other stuff after BoS though.

Edited January 16, 2013 by fruitbat

[Crump]

Its silly to introduce it until there's a map suitable imo, whether its popular or not.

 

Any generic map can reproduce the events around the Demyansk mushroom which occurred during the Battle of Stalingrad.  I don't think having a specific map for the FW-190 is all that essential.

[DD_fruitbat]

Any generic map can reproduce the events around the Demyansk mushroom which occurred during the Battle of Stalingrad.  I don't think having a specific map for the FW-190 is all that essential.

 

A map that accurately maps the Demyansk mushroom would be great, and bland generic map just to get a FW190 in, is not what i want at all, and would not bode well for the future of the game imo.

[csThor]

Demyansk was over well before the Fw 190 saw service on the Eastern Front. Why are you guys so desperately trying to include the Fw 190 when it's not part of the operational timeframe and location specified by 1C Game Studios?

Edited January 16, 2013 by csThor

[DD_fruitbat]

i can only assume its down to poor gunnery, one cannon is just not enough for them, lol.

[Krupi]

As long as my Frederick has bombs I will be happy!

[DD_fruitbat]

As long as your Frederick has a 15mm 151 while i'm flying a yak, i will be happy

[III/JG53Frankyboy]

as long there will be a flyable Ju88 and Pe-2, i will be happy

[Krupi]

As long as your Frederick has a 15mm 151 while i'm flying a yak, i will be happy

 

Ha like your going to get in the air! Before your know whats happening you will have a SC50 ticking away on your lap

Edited January 16, 2013 by JG52Krupi