Do you think the dev team should make the HS129 as planed for BOK?

[Neil]

Hey guys,

I would like to know how much the HS129 is popular,

For me, it is not an interesting aircraft to make, but it is just my opinion,

I would like to know if I am the only one to think that as it is a slow and vulnerable ground attack plane. I am not sure if in terms of gameplay it worth the effort.

But of course I respect other opinions! I know they are HS129 lovers and I respect them!

 

Please share your opinion here.

Edited November 5, 2016 by Nil

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

There were numerous posts about the Hs-129 made back even when Stalingrad was in development. It was actually more in talk than the Ju52.

It also played an important role in this theatre so there's little reason not to include it. The fact that it's going to be premium is even better for those that don't like it.

I would like to know if I am the only one to think that as it is a slow and vulnerable ground attack plane. I am not sure if in terms of gameplay it worth the effort.

It is just as slow and vulnerable as the IL-2. The most important feauture of the 129 was it's fully armoured cabin ('bathtub') that effectively protected it's pilots as well as critical components of the aircraft. Only the french originated Gnome engines proved to be prone to engine fires and were less combat resistent than the rest of the aircraft. The book I've read even mentiones occasions where incoming bullets deflected off the aircraft's fuselage due to it's particular triangular shape.

 

The B-2 series we're gettign wasn't too bad in terms of speed.

In the end it will not be the aircraft's capebilities that are decisive for it's combat effectiveness but the armarment. With the Mk103 it could be a potent tank killer.

Edited November 5, 2016 by 6./ZG26_5tuka

[Dutchvdm]

It's an iconic attack aircraft for the eastern front. No contest for me.

 

Grt M

[LukeFF]

Why is this even a question? 

[Neil]

There were numerous posts about the Hs-129 made back even when Stalingrad was in development. It was actually more in talk than the Ju52.

It also played an important role in this theatre so there's little reason not to include it. The fact that it's going to be premium is even better for those that don't like it.

It is just as slow and vulnerable as the IL-2. The most important feauture of the 129 was it's fully armoured cabin ('bathtub') that effectively protected it's pilots as well as critical companents of the aircraft. Only the french originated Gnome engines proved to be prone to engine fires and were less combat resident than the rest of the aircraft. The book I've read even mentiones occasion where incoming bullets defelcted off the aircrafts fuselage due to it's particular triangular shape.

 

The B-2 series we're gettign wasn't too bad in terms of speed.

242594d1378819868t-hs129b-perfomance-question-1002227-pic_264.jpg

In the end it will not be the aircraft's capebilities that are decisive for it's combat effectiveness but the armarment. With the Mk103 it could be a potent tank killer.

Thank you very much for your complete answer 5tuka, I understand now the reasons of this choice. I guess it would be a good german "il2"

 

Why is this even a question? 

 

Because we can not understand everything and know everything in this world. 

There is always something new to learn.

Edited November 5, 2016 by Nil

[SvAF/F16_Goblin]

Absolutely no question about it. A very important addition to the series.

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

What 5tuka said.

 

The HS 129 will be an interesting plane, if modelled right the MK 101/103 is going to be very good at killing tanks, making the HS 129 a better tank killer than the current IL-2 (if the Battle of Kuban IL-2 gets PTAB bombs then IL-2 would win I guess.)

 

Compared to the IL-2 it's kinda a tradeoff, from the front it has better pilot protection, but the sides of the bathub are a bit weaker than IL-2's. The engines in the Hs 129 aren't as surrounded by armor as the IL-2 engine is, however them being radials and having fire extinguishers might compensate it.

Edited November 5, 2016 by SuperEtendard

[II./JG77_Manu*]

I would cancel my preorder if it would be excluded.

This plane alongside Kobra and hope for a proper 190 are my main (and almost exclusive) reasons to buy it

Edited November 5, 2016 by II./JG77_Manu*

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

It's a must-have - as said before, the Hs-129 is to the Luftwaffe what the Il-2 is to the VVS. While you can go down and dirty with the Pe-2 or Bf-110 and still hit a few trucks, maybe scoring a lucky hit on a tank, nothing compares to having dedicated attack aircraft who are armed and made exactly for their task. Being slow but well-armoured means these aircraft can appropriately fly at the speed needed for gunning down individual ground targets (as opposed to dropping 10 bombs on a cluster of targets) while being able to resist the ground fire that comes with attacking enemy positions.

 

Basically, the Hs-129 and the Il-2 can go in and destroy whatever hot target there is from close range, without catching fire or losing a wing like the Pe-2 or Bf-110 often do.

 

This doctrine is still alive today - from the Cold War A-10 and Su-25 to the modern-day Brazilian A-29. Now, when using these aircraft you need to either have no air opposition, or provide appropriate cover because even if they can score a kill every now and then, attack aircraft are not made for air combat.

[Cybermat47]

Of course. It's an awesome aircraft, and it's probably too late to change any of the aircraft now.

Edited November 5, 2016 by Cybermat47

[GridiroN]

Too many people are making arguments as to why it should be in the sim just because...well...it was there, without thinking about what it adds to the game, which is almost nothing, other than the cool 37mm AT under-nose cannon. The ME-410 also had undernose cannons, was a much cooler plane that would add something interesting to the game (a fast, relatively agile destroyer, with bomb bay, and vector cannons), is inline with the timeline of Kuban (the 410 became operationally active July 1943), though I don't know if the 410 was all that popular in the Crimea historically speaking.

Edited November 6, 2016 by GridiroN

[Cybermat47]

Too many people are making arguments as to why it should be in the sim just because...well...it was there, without thinking about what it adds to the game, which is almost nothing, other than the cool 37mm AT under-nose cannon. The ME-410 also had undernose cannons, was a much cooler plane that would add something interesting to the game (a fast, relatively agile destroyer, with bomb bay, and vector cannons), is inline with the timeline of Kuban (the 410 became operationally active July 1943), though I don't know if the 410 was all that popular in the Crimea historically speaking.

I highly doubt the dev team will just dump all the research they've done into the Hs-129, and then do all the same research for the Me-410. Plus, that would probably just push the release date back a few weeks (at least).

 

Besides, I can't find any info on Me-410s operating in the Kuban area.

 

If we ever get a Defence of the Reich game, though, the Me-410 would be great to have. We're already getting the Bf-110 G-2, so as far as I know, the 410 is the only other heavy fighter the Luftwaffe operated in DotR operations.

Edited November 6, 2016 by Cybermat47

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

Too many people are making arguments as to why it should be in the sim just because...well...it was there, without thinking about what it adds to the game, which is almost nothing, other than the cool 37mm AT under-nose cannon. The ME-410 also had undernose cannons, was a much cooler plane that would add something interesting to the game (a fast, relatively agile destroyer, with bomb bay, and vector cannons), is inline with the timeline of Kuban (the 410 became operationally active July 1943), though I don't know if the 410 was all that popular in the Crimea historically speaking.

 

The Hs-129 is an interesting attacker for the Germans, a counterpart of the IL-2, armored and heavy hitter. Btw looks like it won't have a 37mm, just the 30mm and 4 x 7.92mm gunpods (37mm gunpod will be for Bf-110G). The Me-410 got most of it's versatile variants and loadouts in 1944 and served mostly at the Western Front as bomber hunter if I'm correct.

 

By this timeline and theater I guess it should be an Me-210 (and still I don't know if they were fielded at Kuban), which would only have bombs, along with all the problems the design had before being corrected in the 410. So it wouldn't add much more than the Bf-110G2, only a bit faster yet harder to fly, with less firepower and around the same bombload. I think the Hs-129 adds more to the sim than the Me-210, and a full fledged Me-410 although cool I'm afraid it's out of place for the time being.

 

We're already getting the Bf-110 G-2, so as far as I know, the 410 is the only other heavy fighter the Luftwaffe operated in DotR operations.

 

The other main types would be variants of the Ju-88 (C,R,G) and in fewer numbers the Ta-154 and Hs-219

Edited November 6, 2016 by SuperEtendard

[[DBS]El_Marta]

With the introduction of "Collector Planes" there is always the chance of adding other popular plane types.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Too many people are making arguments as to why it should be in the sim just because...well...it was there, without thinking about what it adds to the game, which is almost nothing, other than the cool 37mm AT under-nose cannon. The ME-410 also had undernose cannons, was a much cooler plane that would add something interesting to the game (a fast, relatively agile destroyer, with bomb bay, and vector cannons), is inline with the timeline of Kuban (the 410 became operationally active July 1943), though I don't know if the 410 was all that popular in the Crimea historically speaking.

The Me-410 did not serve as a anti tank plane and did not have high calibre cannon options (there were Bk,5 fitted destroyer variants that exclusively served on the western front to hunt B-17s). From what I know it also wasn't deployed in numbers on the eastern front since by the time it went operational the requirements of a heavy multi purpose aircraft changed and the availabel ones were all pressed into intercepting service.

 

Again, the Hs-129 has it's historical place in this theatre and there're people that like it. That does not mean there shouldn't be any other planes at all in future but arguing the Hs-129 was comparetively useless is just hopeless.

[Feathered_IV]

Looking forward to the Hs-129.  Probably more than any other aircraft in the next installment.  I played the hell out of it in 1946.

[Lusekofte]

If this plane is not to be build I would bury this game on the interweb and forget it. If I was to fly only fast late war fighters, I would migrate to DCS full time, not looking back. 

[Jade_Monkey]

Im not really sure what's the point of this poll, especially AFTER the devs already decided its going to be included in the game.

 

They didnt just pull a bunch of names out of a hat. They thought about it much longer than we think, to have a historically relevant and also some balance in plane types for both sides.

[Matt]

I'm looking forward to flying a SP campaign with it. But i'm also a bit afraid that i'll end up spending most of my ground-attack time in the 110 G-2 (the BK37 loadout is very tempting) instead and unless in a coop mission, i don't think i would use the Hs 129 online.

 

It's a plane that's nice to have, but it's not essential. So i think it's good that they release it as a collectors plane. And i'm glad that they included this rather unique plane instead of another variant of an existing plane, like the rest of the German planes (not that i blame them for that of course).

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

It will be usefull against smaller but well defended targets than the Bf-110 due to it's armour protection. While the Bf110 G with the Bk37 has great potetial as a ground attacker it lacks the protection from AAA and is a good bit slower than the normal version due to the added drag of the gondola. Both come with a certain trade.

Edited November 7, 2016 by 6./ZG26_5tuka

[GridiroN]

The Me-410 did not serve as a anti tank plane and did not have high calibre cannon options (there were Bk,5 fitted destroyer variants that exclusively served on the western front to hunt B-17s). From what I know it also wasn't deployed in numbers on the eastern front since by the time it went operational the requirements of a heavy multi purpose aircraft changed and the availabel ones were all pressed into intercepting service.

 

Again, the Hs-129 has it's historical place in this theatre and there're people that like it. That does not mean there shouldn't be any other planes at all in future but arguing the Hs-129 was comparetively useless is just hopeless.

 

Your point seems hypocritical if we consider that the Stuka already fulfills the purpose of tank hunting, and equips superior 37mm gun pods. At this stage in the game, it's not really about whether roles are redundant, it's about whether the plane is interesting, or has interesting mechanical features, like adding the new He111 with 2 bomb bays, the Airacobra with heavy guns and a strictly American FM, or the new BF110 that equips cannons. 

 

The HS129 may be historically accurate, but it's not adding anything to the game. That being said, I was unaware previously that it's a collector plane, not in the main set, so having it be an addition plane is actually fine with me. People who don't want it don't have to buy it. 

[SOLIDKREATE]

It may be a slow pig but I'd still fly her!

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Your point seems hypocritical if we consider that the Stuka already fulfills the purpose of tank hunting, and equips superior 37mm gun pods. At this stage in the game, it's not really about whether roles are redundant, it's about whether the plane is interesting, or has interesting mechanical features, like adding the new He111 with 2 bomb bays, the Airacobra with heavy guns and a strictly American FM, or the new BF110 that equips cannons.

 

The problem with the Stuka and Bf-110 tank-hunting is that neither were really made for it. We're talking about two designs from 1936, both already at the tail end of their useful service lives, strapped with big guns to shoot tanks because someone had to. They had no proper armour and they were not really designed to fire those weapons or even carry them in the first place.

 

As a result, not only they are easy picking for the ground fire due to lack of armour, they are also relatively ineffective and have their performance and handling further degraded by the bulky guns. You end up with improvised, outdated aircraft doing jobs they aren't good at.

 

With the Hs-129, you have the right armour, the right weapons carried the right way in order to get low, blow up some tanks and get out of there alive.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Your point seems hypocritical if we consider that the Stuka already fulfills the purpose of tank hunting, and equips superior 37mm gun pods. At this stage in the game, it's not really about whether roles are redundant, it's about whether the plane is interesting, or has interesting mechanical features, like adding the new He111 with 2 bomb bays, the Airacobra with heavy guns and a strictly American FM, or the new BF110 that equips cannons. 

 

The HS129 may be historically accurate, but it's not adding anything to the game. That being said, I was unaware previously that it's a collector plane, not in the main set, so having it be an addition plane is actually fine with me. People who don't want it don't have to buy it. 

It adds as much new to the game as the Spitfire, 109 G-4 or the Yak-7. It has a Mk103, good armour and a specially shaped fuselage to make it a flying tank. If that's not special enought I don't know what is.

 

Just don't buy it. There will still be people happy about it.

[Dutchvdm]

44 to 2. Sounds like the Hs-129 can stay  . To be honest i found this poll rather rude... I have no particular interest in the upcoming spitfire, but i do know that this forum has some users that are really looking forward to it. Who am i to question the decision to include it.

 

Grt M

[Asgar]

you sir, will not take away my Hs-129. Shame on you! Shame!

[II./JG77_Manu*]

Your point seems hypocritical if we consider that the Stuka already fulfills the purpose of tank hunting, and equips superior 37mm gun pods.

 

Actually it's quite the opposite. The Hs129 with it's Mk103 is hugely superior to the Stuka in tank killing. It carries 80 shots, from which any single one can possibly kill a T-34. In addition it has a huge rate of fire (7 shots/s) so even if your aim isn't the best, you should be able to easily kill a tank with one approach. The gun right in the middle makes aiming far easier then with the Stuka. With the Stuka you have to get your convergence exactly right, and one shot (from 14) is pretty much wasted all the time. Then there is a very slow rate of fire, which means that you have to make one more pass, when you don't hit your first shot. Very enjoyable with an aircraft, that has next to no protection from groundfire. In contrary to the Henschel, which is pretty much a tank at it's belly. With the Henschel you can take out a whole column including tanks, AAA etc with one single approach, when your angle is right, good luck trying that with the Stuka. The Hs129 is pretty much the best tank killer from WW2....it's only (huge) downside are of course the flight characteristics, which mean it's doomed when without escort. But apart from that it's hugely superior to every other German aircraft in it's one and only function -->killing tanks

Edited November 8, 2016 by II./JG77_Manu*

[Lusekofte]

I honestly bet on the HS 129 since I bought the preorder on BOS the date it was released. I thought I would fly LW mainly . I be damned if a poll should stop it. It is a plane that will make me fly LW a lot more. BOK has in my opinion the best plane set so far 

[LukeFF]

It's just a shame we won't get a chance to use the steel helmet and MP40 that was included in the Hs 129's survival kit after being shot down behind enemy lines. 

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

It's probably really important since it will be the first German aircraft that is closest in capability to the IL-2. The Stuka has bombs but it doesn't have the guns (37mm has too limited ammo), HS-129 will have 20mm, 30mm MK103 (also probably 37mm, put its rate of fire and ammunition count is too low IMO to be as useful as the MK103)

Edited November 9, 2016 by RoflSeal

[Lusekofte]

Tactics for the HS 129 in attack was to always fly over enemy lines and attack the tanks or target with nose pointed toward own lines, there where two reasons for this.

1. Tanks wounereable back end where the engine was placed
2. If hit by AA they would have a better chance for ditching the plane behind own lines. Slow and easy to hit with not always reliable engines, absolutely no chance staying in the air with only one engine, and bailing out was never a good idea, the cockpit was so tight that the very idea getting out in a hurry was almost impossible, and always flying low. The bathtub and angles made for better protection was terrible small.

It had poor range and was meant to support own troops close to front. This is something mission makers have to consider when making missions suitable for the HS 129, it simply cannot survive too far from own lines

I read about a unit in Flypast, it really was not a unpopular plane among the pilots flying them. It got the job done

Edited November 9, 2016 by 216th_LuseKofte

[Neil]

I would like to thank you for your answer which helps me a lot to better understand the utility of the HS129

 

What I like the most is that the HS129 is very Popular,

 

As you understood , I did this topic to understand , to learn only, to take the "temperature" 

 

It shows how the dev team did a very wise choice to include on BOK, and it shows how much this sim is getting better and better.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I heard they had a lot of bird strikes. Geese overtaking them from behind and hitting them in the tail causing stability issues.

 

 

 

*old joke

[Asgar]

It's just a shame we won't get a chance to use the steel helmet and MP40 that was included in the Hs 129's survival kit after being shot down behind enemy lines. 

hey new features can always be added in the future :D

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

I heard they had a lot of bird strikes. Geese overtaking them from behind and hitting them in the tail causing stability issues.

 

 

Edited November 10, 2016 by 6./ZG26_5tuka

[YoYo]

Yes, You are the only one ....

Cant wait for Hs-129. Its a great idea to do this machine.

[Chief_Mouser]

I would like to thank you for your answer which helps me a lot to better understand the utility of the HS129

 

What I like the most is that the HS129 is very Popular,

 

As you understood , I did this topic to understand , to learn only, to take the "temperature" 

 

It shows how the dev team did a very wise choice to include on BOK, and it shows how much this sim is getting better and better.

 

Good post Nil. When I saw this topic I did wonder if we had a virtual fighter ace who cared nothing about the historical aspect of the battle. I see that it isn't so.

I'm also glad that almost everyone that voted thinks that it's a great plane to have in the sim -  as for me I'm really looking forward to it!

Cheers.

[Neil]

Thank you Cat, 

I am caring of other people, that is why I made this post, to know more what people want, and, above all, to see if the dev team did the right choice .

Turns out that this plane is the PERFECT choice!

[J2_Trupobaw]

It's one of two planes that interest me the most in BoK. With all respect to better abilities of new 109, new 190, new 110, new 111, new Yak, new Il-2 and first Spitfire in BoX, I know these airframes already. Since I'm not level bombing guy, the promise of new flying experience rests on hs 129 and aircobra, and of these two, Henschel has "a plane unlike what you flew before" written all over it.

Edited November 12, 2016 by Trupobaw

[kestrel79]

Yes we need this plane!

 

So sick of the common ww2 planes you get in every sim, time for something new. Yes I'll fly it and get show down a lot but who cares looks like fun! This plane and the ju52 are two of the main reasons I love this game. 2 cool weird planes I alwys wanted to fly in a sim.