The Mighty IL2, or ... it's Pilot :-)

[Dakpilot]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzBsG26Lkqo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HjEB69-Cpk

 

Yes many tricks can be done at near empty weight at edge of flight envelope in computer sim

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Edited October 31, 2016 by Dakpilot

[II./JG77_Manu*]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzBsG26Lkqo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HjEB69-Cpk

 

Yes many tricks can be done at near empty weight at edge of flight envelope in computer sim

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Well the DCS one was with 180kph of wind, so the aircraft effectively flew 190-200kph while "landing"..BoM one's not so much. Ok, i agree, it's not only the Il2, but something is seriously wrong with those FMs

[Dakpilot]

Perhaps you could get someone to fly a real aircraft with more power to weight than Pitts with almost zero fuel and fly way outside the permissible flight regime. you would be surprised what they are capable of 

 

Sadly I have witnessed a number of aircraft accidents and seen some strange aircraft behaviour that would indicate wrong FM...

 

probably 50% of the way most people fly online would not be done by actual pilots 

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[SuperCossack]

just because you can over control a bf-110 at low speed it doesn't mean it's performing "high alpha" nor does falling off the top of a vertical climb equal "prop hanging"

 

try stooging around at low level and low airspeed with a real 110 the same way as in the video and the result will probably be about the same except you wont live long enough to tell anybody how broken the flight model is

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

I want to throw 4 things into the room that could be base for arguments on why the IL2 performs as well as it does.

 

1. Prophang

2. Sniping

3. Planedurability

4. Weapondamage

Disadvantages:

1. Low Climb Rate

2. Low Speed

3. Low Dive Speed, bad High Speed Handling

4. Can't take G-Forces (Wings Fall off)

5. Guns mounted far out, makes long range shooting diffcult

6. No Visibility. You can't see out of the damn thing (except 1941 without 23mm)

7. Sheer Size makes you almost unmissable

8. Tail is very vulnerable. 

 

If you as a german fighter Pilot get Shot Down by Il-2s routinely, you should reevaluate wether your Skill Set wouldn't suit something else. 

[Riderocket]

Everyone knows its not the aircraft, its the pilot.

 

Even Manfred Von Richthofen said so when he fought against Lanoe Hawker

 

[69th_chuter]

Again, as I've always said (I'm beginning to feel rather self-conscious about even bringing it up) axial inertia isn't modeled.  It amounts to control responsiveness, so a plane, let's say an Me110 with (relatively) considerable roll inertia, can't reach its max roll rate in the same time as a Yak-1 (all multi-engine planes should respond slower than singles - lol).  The IL2 should have overall slower control responsiveness than a Yak as well.  The problem with all this is this characteristic was rarely, if ever, quantified at the time (although there are some general references to it regarding particular aircraft), so to incorporate it in the game would require calculating it from other known parameters making it a just a  good guesstimate.  It's not like it's a huge thing, but I believe its effect in a dogfight would be enough to change some outcomes.

[wtornado]

Though you could point to the P-47 as an example that it could work.

 

 

 

My previous example with the Hawker Typhoon is more analogous to the IL-2.

 

I just can't see the comparison with these aircraft.

 

The Typhoon had well over 2000 HP engines and a 5000 KG fully loaded weight.

 

P-47 C or D is not a good example seeing that the IL-2 with its 1500 HP engine and the P-47C-D with its 2300 to 2400 or higher HP engine and

the IL-2 weighing in at at least 200 KG heavier I just do not see it.

 

Yes you read about the exploits of the P-47 and the 56 Squadron chasing down FW-190's and diving on BF-109's but even they new they had

limits and rules of engagement dog fighting German fighters.

 

I am not saying German fighters were not shot down but if they knew the IL-2's were there and had no element of suprise I have a hard time seiing it

 

 

Reading all this I do not know what to think.

Edited November 1, 2016 by WTornado

[Finkeren]

I just can't see the comparison with these aircraft.

 

The Typhoon had well over 2000 HP engines and a 5000 KG fully loaded weight.

 

P-47 C or D is not a good example seeing that the IL-2 with its 1500 HP engine and the P-47C-D with its 2300 to 2400 or higher HP engine and

the IL-2 weighing in at at least 200 KG heavier I just do not see it.

 

Yes you read about the exploits of the P-47 and the 56 Squadron chasing down FW-190's and diving on BF-109's but even they new they had

limits and rules of engagement dog fighting German fighters.

 

I am not saying German fighters were not shot down but if they knew the IL-2's were there and had no element of suprise I have a hard time seiing it

 

 

Reading all this I do not know what to think.

I never said, that the IL-2 was anything like either the P-47 or the Typhoon.

 

I used the P-47 as an example of a big, heavy WW2-era aircraft, that actually fully functions as a fighter (the IL-2 does not)

 

I used the Typhoon as an example of an aircraft performing well in a role it wasn't originally designed for, simply to counter Con's statement, that the IL-2 can't possible have been maneuverable because it was designed as a ground attack aircraft.

 

The analogies stop right there. In no other way am I comparing the IL-2 to actual fighters. The IL-2 is not a fighter, but of it's piloted by an aggressive player, he will shoot you down, if you let him.

Edited November 1, 2016 by Finkeren

[-TBC-AeroAce]

Most of these ace il2 pilots shoot us down by sniping when we bz them and pull out to steep and straight in front of them. If you pull out a bit flater in a bit of a rolling turn they tend to miss. Be careful though as they can hit u all the way out to 1k sometimes more

[216th_Jordan]

I seriously try to prophang Il-2s but thats not working somehow.

 

When I was starting with BOS I had big troubles with shooting down Ju-87 because their turn radius was so small, I blamed them

Edited November 1, 2016 by 216th_Jordan

[Wulf]

 The IL-2 is not a fighter, but of it's piloted by an aggressive player, he will shoot you down, if you let him.

 

 

Yup, and the question is, in circumstances other than when an attacking fighter commits a cardinal sin, is that realistic?  I haven't seen anything in the historical record to suggest so.  Could the IL-2 shoot down the odd Ju 87 or Ju 52 - of course it could.  Was it able to successfully 'engage' German single seat fighters?  I would say no, not in the real world it couldn't, not a chance. 

 

The previously mentioned Hawker Typhoon and the FW 190 had much more in common than any attempted comparison with an IL-2.  Both were conceived as fighters from day one; a role that they both preformed admirably,  and both proved themselves to be sufficiently adaptable that they could also slip very comfortably into the role of fighter-bombers.  The IL-2 wasn't in the same class.

[216th_Peterla]

Real life environment is very different from simulated one. This doesn't mean that what is simulated is totally wrong.

Some of the guys here are real life airline pilots and I'm pretty sure they use at some point plane type simulators for their training. There are things you do in a simulater that you will never do in real life because you don't want, nor because you can't(and for the safety of the passage keeped that way).

While doing my 407 type course our instructor show us a video of a Bell 407 on a festival in US. Even for a non aerobatic aircraft the pilot performed several aerobatic maneuvers and end up at the end of the show with a loop.

Of course you can do aerobatics on a 407 but it's not designed for that. The whole A/C need to be dismantled and many parts scrapped leaving you an expensive, very expensive static toy.

So under my point of view I guess that in certain conditions you can get incredible performance in a simulator not being inconsistent with the aircraft's real envelope, being that one never reached by a mentally sane pilot.

[216th_Jordan]

Seriously, go to Berloga and try to dogfight with an Il-2. It can be fun and even work out but you got to be very lucky with the circumstances and the enemy pilot.

Edited November 1, 2016 by 216th_Jordan

[Lusekofte]

IL 2 units became more aggressive after the initial use of the IL 2, because of problems getting escorts , they turned against the attacker and managed several times to shoot down the attacker, they even stripped some IL 2 and used them as escort with success.

 

When I say this , I do not mean the author of this topic. There are axis bias people here really proclaiming historical knowledge, that really don´t.

You are dead meat flying alone in a slower aircraft attacked by many. But if you are in that situation the IL 2 with under half tank, without bombs and rockets, and spent ammo is the right plane to be in, just like when on return. the 41 version is really agile

[Guest deleted@50488]

Real life environment is very different from simulated one. This doesn't mean that what is simulated is totally wrong.

Some of the guys here are real life airline pilots and I'm pretty sure they use at some point plane type simulators for their training. There are things you do in a simulater that you will never do in real life because you don't want, nor because you can't(and for the safety of the passage keeped that way).

While doing my 407 type course our instructor show us a video of a Bell 407 on a festival in US. Even for a non aerobatic aircraft the pilot performed several aerobatic maneuvers and end up at the end of the show with a loop.

Of course you can do aerobatics on a 407 but it's not designed for that. The whole A/C need to be dismantled and many parts scrapped leaving you an expensive, very expensive static toy.

So under my point of view I guess that in certain conditions you can get incredible performance in a simulator not being inconsistent with the aircraft's real envelope, being that one never reached by a mentally sane pilot.

 

Ah!  I need your opinion on rotary wing simulation... Will PM you - hope you don't mind ( ? )

[Wulf]

Okay, so this is what jcomm had to say about the IL-2:

 

 

 

A human controlled IL2 captured my attention the moment I got being shot down, session after session. The pilot always managed to maneuver the aircraft in such a way, mostly in vertical maneuvers, that even after being hit, sooner or latter he was behind me, and ripping my wings, like no Yak, or La5 or even Rata could :-)   My first though is that indeed the IL2 is a great fighter after all, or the pilot is a great pilot, or even better - both of these :-)

 

 

Now, as far as I recall, jcomm isn't exactly a "newbie".  And if you have a look at the posts that immediately followed his opener, the general consensus appears to be that yes, the IL-2 had some shit going on.   So please .....

[Guest deleted@50488]

Okay, so this is what jcomm had to say about the IL-2:

 

 

 

 

 

Now, as far as I recall, jcomm isn't exactly a "newbie".  And if you have a look at the posts that immediately followed his opener, the general consensus appears to be that yes, the IL-2 had some shit going on.   So please .....

 

 

Yes Wulf, I also think so...

 

Returned to that same server last night, don't recall its designation but it's something like .... and TANKS... and it has great PING here in Portugal.

 

Aerowolf was there again, and he managed to shot me down again. 

 

I remember that a few weeks ago it was Aerowolf who kept being shot down by my 109s or even 190. I just pick Axis aircraft when there is a notorious imbalance between sides. I usually chat with "picking --- side for balance" before entering the "fight" :-)

 

I am more up to playing with the Allies aircraft. I have been concentrating on the P-40 and the LagG3 ( again ) because I really like both, although I feel the way the P-40 feels ( just flight dynamics wise ) a bit strange... ( * )

 

Anyway, I am really not an experienced virtual fighter pilot. Sometimes I enter a MP session and end up running flight dynamics tests :-) before being shotdown....

 

Yesterday's experience raised my "reserves" regarding the maneuverability of the IL2 ( don't really know what mod the other player is using ) ...

 

As a matter of fact, in my E-7, after getting some minor hits from distance, I started a climb at  what I guess is Vy and truth is that IL2 behind me managed to follow, get closer, and shot me down    I'm beginning to think there's really something going on with the way the il2 is modeled ( ? ) 

 

( * ) About what I find strange in the P-40... there are some details, but I particularly find that pitching down moment on takeoff strange, even with various trim settings, and I find the aircraft is way too stable across a wide range of power and AoA, requiring practically no trim adjustments, when I expected that the real aircraft would really ask for rudder and aileron trim adjustments when changing from climb to cruise, or whenever power / thrust was adjusted ( ? )

OTOH, the engine allows for more credible use of higher ( military ) power settings, within the "published limits"  without suffering severe damage

Edited November 1, 2016 by jcomm

[Dakpilot]

Having re-read the thread I do not see any consensus that the IL-2 has some **** going on

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Dakpilot]

These questions are easily settled..does the IL-2 have a better climb performance in game than 109 E, and what are real climb performance..

 

relative energy levels are always hard to judge

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Caudron431]

 

 

Sadly I have witnessed a number of aircraft accidents and seen some strange aircraft behaviour that would indicate wrong FM...

 

probably 50% of the way most people fly online would not be done by actual pilots 

 

Cheers Dakpilot

True. The use of a sim (as opposed to a game), it's like the use of  a foreign language dictionnary:  you really have to know at least a bit of this language in order to use it adequately  or soon you will speak a new sort of idiolect no one in the real world understands.

[Guest deleted@50488]

Now, I don't wan't to offend anyone, but...yeah...better not to say anything

 

Me neither. And that should be obvious to anyone having actually flown the thing online

 

But please do Corrigan - it's a game we're talking here :-)  

 

I would feel offended if you commented on my glider aerobatics IRL though :-))

Edited November 1, 2016 by jcomm

[216th_Jordan]

Well, 500 meters difference in climb is nothing when you are in the enemies gunsight, albeit slow. So to even reach that 500 m seperation starting from co alt and co-e would take you more than 100 seconds, which is a very long time.

[Guest deleted@50488]

 

IL-2 Model 1941

Climb rate at sea level: 9.4 m/s

Climb rate at 3000 m: 8.9 m/s

Climb rate at 6000 m: 3.9 m/s

 

Bf-109E-7

Climb rate at sea level: 14 m/s

Climb rate at 3000 m: 13.3 m/s

Climb rate at 6000 m: 7 m/s  

 

You most likely did what is a common sight on df servers like berloga. Overshoot your opponent and think that your advantage in climb rate and speed is enough so that you can just start climbing straight in front of him within guns range. And usually less experienced piltos climb at a way too steep angle. Often with their slats out

 

 

In bold what I think was probably the culprit!  Thanks for the note Corrigan - I'll try to explore it :-)  - get ready Aerowolf !!!  :-)

Edited November 1, 2016 by jcomm

[216th_Peterla]

@jcomm I will be glad to help but keep in mind I'm no pilot, just helicopter engineer. I only fly two times with the help of the pilot in command two aircraft when in ferry flights, a Bell 407 and an Agusta 119 MkII. Those things when in translational flight are quite stable, even my grandma can fly them. Other story is take off, hover and landing.

Regards

[Guest deleted@50488]

Thx Peterla!

[t4trouble]

I see a lot people when they BnZ they do it wrong online, you should never overshoot and go vertical a head of your target.....

 

 

IL-2 Model 1941

Climb rate at sea level: 9.4 m/s

Climb rate at 3000 m: 8.9 m/s

Climb rate at 6000 m: 3.9 m/s

 

Bf-109E-7

Climb rate at sea level: 14 m/s

Climb rate at 3000 m: 13.3 m/s

Climb rate at 6000 m: 7 m/s  

 

You most likely did what is a common sight on df servers like berloga. Overshoot your opponent and think that your advantage in climb rate and speed is enough so that you can just start climbing straight in front of him within guns range. And usually less experienced piltos climb at a way too steep angle. Often with their slats out

 

This......

[Bearcat]

+1000 to this. 

 

Reading some other posts in this topic I'm thinking...damn we really need a dislike button and some kind of a system which automatically deletes the most disliked posts. Addressing these idiotic posts gets tiring after a while...

 

Then don't respond.. you don't have to.. 

[KoN_]

Seriously, go to Berloga and try to dogfight with an Il-2. It can be fun and even work out but you got to be very lucky with the circumstances and the enemy pilot.

Did just that , can tight turn and with good roll rate  , you can throw this thing around hardly any stalls that hit you with surprise . Get good gun solutions and its stable . Give it a go .

Edited November 4, 2016 by II./JG77_Con

[216th_Jordan]

Did just that , can tight turn and with good roll rate  , you can throw this thing around hardly any stalls that hit you with surprise . Get good gun solutions and its stable . Give it a go .

 

I did it often just for fun. It works out a number of times. Don't get me wrong, it has a great instantaneous turn ability. But it will bleed off speed in no time making you very vulnerable. Don't even try to enter a continous turn.  

Edited November 4, 2016 by 216th_Jordan

[[TWB]80hd]

Here's a good test... go take an IL-2 out on the TAW server (or any server that has significant AAA strength and wind/turbulence enabled) and go in on some enemy tanks, preferably a fresh armored column at full strength... dive in on it and go to work... tell me how you do.

 

Heck, even have some fighters roll in first and take out/occupy the AA (SEAD, thanks dillon), and just try to get in and work those tanks with a healthy crosswind.

 

It's not easy.  This is proven time and again when we hit a column or even when we come to the aid of a column being hit... the number of pilots out there capable of getting the job done at all, let alone with any semblance of precision or timeliness, is relatively low (Stukas tend to be the same... everyone can crush area targets with bombs, but tanks are where you see who the real ground pounders are).  Add in active AAA or enemy planes, and it's really a hoot.

 

Now, after performing this test of the IL-2s primary function, what would you change about the aircraft to make it less of a "fighter" that wouldn't make it even more difficult for most pilots to perform its intended role?

 

A 1942, with fuel and ordnance, is not dogfighting anyone... if you climb up, you can dive and get a bit of time (or simply slaughter anyone that overshoots you, that's just science) to have your fighter cover come save you, but that's about it. 

 

A 1941 you can take a light load-out and yes, you can act like a slow fighter with really powerful guns and a lot of ammo.

 

Respect any aircraft capable of pointing a pair of tank-killing guns at you, and you'll be fine.

[=EXPEND=Dendro]

If it was renowned as a dogfighter you would see it 24/7 on the Berloga server...... BUT..... you dont.

 

I think the devs created a very accurate representation of its capabilities.

 

An experienced LW pilot would tear you to pieces in no time...... if he does not leave you any chance of a gun solution.

[-WILD-AlbinoHA5E]

The 190 is probably the biggest threat to an Il-2. Dive on them Head-On and shoot them in the top of the engine and kills the Pilot quickly. The Il-2s have become a lot more fragile these last patches.

[Aap]

 

 

The 190 is probably the biggest threat to an Il-2. Dive on them Head-On and shoot them in the top of the engine and kills the Pilot quickly.

 

I think that head-on is not the easiest thing to set up against a ground attacker ... and secondly, I don't know I eager I would be to put my plane deliberately in front of a tank buster's guns. 

[-WILD-AlbinoHA5E]

I think that head-on is not the easiest thing to set up against a ground attacker ... and secondly, I don't know I eager I would be to put my plane deliberately in front of a tank buster's guns. 

That's why you Dive in on him, from above, but Head-On and shoot through the Top of the Cowling and Canopy. They don-ät expect and act on that angle.