How to fight in the P40?

[SCG_motoadve]

Bought it, and I like it but it doesnt stand a chance against 109s.

 

Any tips on taking the most out of the P40 in combat?

[Finkeren]

Against 109s? Nope. Can't do a thing with it either.

 

If you can get the jump on a German fighter, then sure you can take it down almost immediately with your fearsome guns, but that really doesn't constitute much of a 'tactic'.

 

It is, however, one of the most effective bomber interceptors in the sim, provided you keep your speed up.

 

It is also a serviceable ground attack aircraft.

 

As a fighter though, I just don't know what to say.

 

Personally I'm waiting for the P-39 and A-20 for the lend-lease AC to really shine.

Edited October 30, 2016 by Finkeren

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

Against Ai or player ? 

 

Against Ai its painful to say the least, Ai when caught pants down always goes into same evasive maneuver - > turn until opponent cant keep up, if he doesnt stop, turn harder. And Ai in 109s does that extremely well, its hard to cut in their turns even with aircraft with much better power to weight ratio. I only carry hit and run when in campaign.

 

Against player, P-40 has good roll rate but its still relatively a big target. I'd say that unless you have a wingmen to help, you can dodge for some time and run towards friends but chances of beating 109 are low. He would have to make a mistake or fly in front of you for a moment so you can use those .50 cals. However if you have altitude to trade, make him turn fight you, trading altitude you can keep energy and outturn him if he wants to dance. I won few times such fights, so its possible. But overall P-40 is just at this stage a very hard aircraft to fly. Probably the hardest fighter in this game. 

[Monostripezebra]

The one strength of the P40 is it´s dive, it can dive with a 190.. another minor strength is that with only 4 guns and extra ammo you can spray a lot and unnerve 109s. That one is actually fun:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMfE7jHD6oM

[Wulf]

I have a solution.  Just fight 190s.  The P 40's going to have to be pretty darn bad if it can't thump the living crap out of a 190.  

[Jade_Monkey]

I have a solution.  Just fight 190s.  The P 40's going to have to be pretty darn bad if it can't thump the living crap out of a 190.  

 

Would you like some cheese with your whine?

[Feathered_IV]

Wurger's Law: As any flight sim discussion grows longer, the probability of a luftwhiner complaining about the Fw-190 approaches 1.

[Wulf]

Would you like some cheese with your whine?

 

 

Mmmmm ...  I likes cheese.

[[CPT]milopugdog]

Wurger's Law: As any flight sim discussion grows longer, the probability of a luftwhiner complaining about the Fw-190 approaches 1.

Another fun game: Enter any thread that relates to in-game aircraft, and see how many pages it takes for the 190 to be mentioned.

[bzc3lk]

Wurger's Law: As any flight sim discussion grows longer, the probability of a luftwhiner complaining about the Fw-190 approaches 1.

 

  Absolute Gold!

[BlitzPig_EL]

The answer, sadly, is to not fly it in combat at all.

 

It pains me to say this as I am a big fan of the P40, but as modeled in this title, with the the engine limitations and the utterly inflexible interpretation by the dev team of them, it is a useless aircraft.  I only fly it for sight seeing offline.

[KoN_]

Remember this is the flight sim of all flight sims according to some ` they have the data So it must be SO. 

Move along nothing too see here . 

 

Use the P-40 for ground attack only.

Work in pairs . 

 

I would like too see a complete over haul of all FM .   .....joke 

Edited October 31, 2016 by II./JG77_Con

[Basher]

Like everyone else has said ground attack only for now, it never seems to gain energy back once you lose it in a turning fight. I have never dived with it but they say it can't be matched in a dive.

 

In ground attack, I can lay waste to almost a whole airfield with 4 .50's and extra ammo. You can take out  the AAA for the bombers to follow afterwards...keeps the bombers alive and happier.

 

I think it is the best at train busting!

[SCG_motoadve]

What was the historical role of the P40 in Russian front?

I remember in the old IL2 game it did not performed as bad as in BOS.

Maybe was wrong then, and now is correct?

[Finkeren]

What was the historical role of the P40 in Russian front?

I remember in the old IL2 game it did not performed as bad as in BOS.

Maybe was wrong then, and now is correct?

 

Historically the P-40 was used by the VVS as any other single seat fighter. Mainly for escort, patrol and interception with the occasional attack against targets of opportunity. Proper ground attack missions happened, but were rare. The VVS was not overly impressed with the P-40 (as opposed to the P-39), but if you look at the statistics of the regiments who flew it in combat, it really didn't do much worse than units of similar experience flying LaGGs or Yaks.

 

Let's not turn this thread into a discussion of the FM of the P-40, there are plenty of threads for that. 

[Crump]

 

 

Historically the P-40 was used by the VVS as any other single seat fighter. Mainly for escort, patrol and interception with the occasional attack against targets of opportunity. Proper ground attack missions happened, but were rare. The VVS was not overly impressed with the P-40 (as opposed to the P-39), but if you look at the statistics of the regiments who flew it in combat, it really didn't do much worse than units of similar experience flying LaGGs or Yaks.

 

It was almost used as a litmus test of a fighter units skill or as the baseline "average" fighter by the VVS.  Units that performed well in the P-40 got better equipment and upgraded to Guards Status.  Units that did not do so well got the latest P-40 variant and sent off to quiet areas of the front for patrol duty.

 

That is kind of how I read it. 

[[TWB]80hd]

The one strength of the P40 is it´s dive, it can dive with a 190.. another minor strength is that with only 4 guns and extra ammo you can spray a lot and unnerve 109s. That one is actually fun:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMfE7jHD6oM

 

Or instead of spraying to unnerve you could just hit him with the bullets more?

 

Just a thought.

[[TWB]80hd]

What was the historical role of the P40 in Russian front?

I remember in the old IL2 game it did not performed as bad as in BOS.

Maybe was wrong then, and now is correct?

 

The early lend-lease P-40s performed quite well against front-line German fighters, at least historically.

 

Some pertinent excerpts from http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/romanenko/p-40/

 

 

"As part of the 6th Air Corps, the 126th IAP flew 666 combat sorties to cover the forces of Kalinin and West Fronts and 318 combat sorties for the defense of Moscow in the period from 25 October 1941 to 25 April 1942. During this effort the regiment downed 29 enemy aircraft at a cost of four of their own aircraft and two pilots. The most intensive period was the first month-685 sorties and 17 kills. But later the regiment was plagued by a continuous series of accidents. The Tomahawk IIB was completely unsuitable for use in the Russian winter. The oil, hydraulic fluid, and antifreeze all froze in temperatures that reached -38° C."

 

The intensity of the aerial combat here was so fierce that even the experienced and well-trained regiment was burned up like a match in this hell in just a week. It was not so bad at first - on 29 August the pilots shot down a Bf-109, Ju-88, and FW-189 at the cost of a single P-40E; on 30 August-5 Bf-109Fs and 5 He-111s with the loss of 3 P-40Es; on the 31st-10 Bf-109Fs, 1 He-111, and 1 Ju-87 for 2 destroyed and 2 damaged P-40Es. But the crossover came on 5 September - it cost 4 Kittyhawks (two destroyed in combat and two in a mid-air collision) for 2 Bf-109Fs and 1 Ju-88. The regiment commander, Major V. M. Naydenko, was shot down and seriously wounded on this day. The four surviving aircraft were assigned to combat patrol over their own airfield.

 

The regiment flew a total of 194 aircraft sorties by 13 September 1942, all of which (rare occasion!) were combat sorties that involved engagement with the enemy. The greater share (163 combat sorties) was to escort Il-2 Shturmoviks. The pilots of 126 IAP conducted 29 group and 24 individual aerial engagements in which 36 enemy aircraft were destroyed (23 Bf-109F, 6 He-111, 3 Ju-88, 1 Bf-110, 1 Ju-87, 1 Hs-123, and 1 FW-189). The regiment lost 13 aircraft, 7 pilots did not return from combat missions, and 5 were wounded. After withdrawal to the rear on 18 September 1942, 126 IAP was re-equipped with the La-5 and subsequently fought only in Soviet-manufactured aircraft.

[Blitzen]

I don't fly it very often but when I do it seems to have all the characteristics of a semi-flying brick...I have read for years about the general inferiority of the p-40 as a "modern interceptor" by 1942 but flying it in this sim drives home the point alarmingly...

[Dakpilot]

Does anyone have a breakdown of how many P40's were delivered to Russia by model number B/C E, K, N/M etc

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[[TWB]80hd]

Does anyone have a breakdown of how many P40's were delivered to Russia by model number B/C E, K, N/M etc

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

Closest I have found doesn't give as granular a breakdown as hoped =/  In all, the USSR received 247 P40C (Tomahawk IIB) and 2,178 P-40E, -K, -L, and -N aircraft from 1941 through 1944, which ranks this type in fourth position (after the P-39, Hurricane, and P-63) among foreign aircraft delivered to the Soviet Union

[Monostripezebra]

Or instead of spraying to unnerve you could just hit him with the bullets more?

 

Just a thought.

 

For hitting direct, I prefer bombs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IumhmB6F3U0

[Dakpilot]

Closest I have found doesn't give as granular a breakdown as hoped =/  In all, the USSR received 247 P40C (Tomahawk IIB) and 2,178 P-40E, -K, -L, and -N aircraft from 1941 through 1944, which ranks this type in fourth position (after the P-39, Hurricane, and P-63) among foreign aircraft delivered to the Soviet Union

 

I have also had little success looking for accurate figures, a long time ago I remember an article saying the E model was the least supplied, and gave a small figure, but memory is not sufficient,

 

although P40E was historically at Stalingrad i think it is fair to say that the larger number of P40's on Eastern front were the later models, K and N and have not read about L packard/Merlin versions with VVS, does not mean that they did not have them though..

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[[TWB]80hd]

Yes, yes, it's a wonderful video... I was even quite supportive of it until you lied about stream sniping, which is grounds for having your troll-union card revoked.

 

So, now that we're on the same page in as far as a your level-bombing skills are concerned, can we return to your less than satisfactory marksmanship with wing mounted guns? Self-confidence is probably THE key for becoming an upstanding young man, and I really think that mastering convergence and the application of said convergence in the delivery of what is honestly a staggering weight of fire (especially in the given time frame) directly onto what is an almost stationary target at ~0 degrees angle off tail I truly believe would be fantastic for your self esteem.

[Monostripezebra]

Yes, yes, it's a wonderful video... I was even quite supportive of it until you lied about stream sniping, which is grounds for having your troll-union card revoked.

 

I think it is funny, that people who change the mass on an airfield, and yes, you could see the 3 dots right in Ec0kes stuff sit around for 10 minutes on the ground with lights on, on what is indicated as the busyiest airfield just next to the one that just got attacked.. and think they should be safe because "airfield not a target".. And so it MUST be stream sniping, no other explanation possible. Apart from all the other non target airfield under attack and with vulching high 109s above, I could not have done anything different for or against that timing, if I actually had watched that stream.. which I can´t for network reasons. That seems so buthurt over nothing.

 

It´s a game, I don´t need to be "the greatest" or supaskilla, I just play to have fun.. but it is sad that I couldn´t actually come on TS with Ec0ke in the 2nd TAW because of TWB saltiness... And I have even 0 problems with Ec0ke himself. You know, just when exactly the same thing happened with a large german squad who had just changed in toto to an airfield that happened to be enroute my way, noone streaming, they actually took it with humor and we had some good exchanges and even offers of cooperation afterwards. And to turn back to the original topic: THAT is exactly what you need to enjoy the P40, some humor, sportsmanship and the ability to actually talk and cooperate with people.. and the will to have fun.

Edited October 31, 2016 by Monostripezebra

[[TWB]80hd]

and the will to have fun.

 

I'm absolutely having fun.

 

 

 

(All fun having aside, the P-40 is definitely 100x more fun if the rounds are put onto a target, that's not "saltiness" or smack talk, that's the only gold star the aircraft gets in this sim, so maximizing that facet is a scientific constant in having fun with the aircraft.) 

[Stig]

The early lend-lease P-40s performed quite well against front-line German fighters, at least historically.

 

Some pertinent excerpts from http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/romanenko/p-40/

 

 

"As part of the 6th Air Corps, the 126th IAP flew 666 combat sorties to cover the forces of Kalinin and West Fronts and 318 combat sorties for the defense of Moscow in the period from 25 October 1941 to 25 April 1942. During this effort the regiment downed 29 enemy aircraft at a cost of four of their own aircraft and two pilots. The most intensive period was the first month-685 sorties and 17 kills. But later the regiment was plagued by a continuous series of accidents. The Tomahawk IIB was completely unsuitable for use in the Russian winter. The oil, hydraulic fluid, and antifreeze all froze in temperatures that reached -38° C."

 

The intensity of the aerial combat here was so fierce that even the experienced and well-trained regiment was burned up like a match in this hell in just a week. It was not so bad at first - on 29 August the pilots shot down a Bf-109, Ju-88, and FW-189 at the cost of a single P-40E; on 30 August-5 Bf-109Fs and 5 He-111s with the loss of 3 P-40Es; on the 31st-10 Bf-109Fs, 1 He-111, and 1 Ju-87 for 2 destroyed and 2 damaged P-40Es. But the crossover came on 5 September - it cost 4 Kittyhawks (two destroyed in combat and two in a mid-air collision) for 2 Bf-109Fs and 1 Ju-88. The regiment commander, Major V. M. Naydenko, was shot down and seriously wounded on this day. The four surviving aircraft were assigned to combat patrol over their own airfield.

 

The regiment flew a total of 194 aircraft sorties by 13 September 1942, all of which (rare occasion!) were combat sorties that involved engagement with the enemy. The greater share (163 combat sorties) was to escort Il-2 Shturmoviks. The pilots of 126 IAP conducted 29 group and 24 individual aerial engagements in which 36 enemy aircraft were destroyed (23 Bf-109F, 6 He-111, 3 Ju-88, 1 Bf-110, 1 Ju-87, 1 Hs-123, and 1 FW-189). The regiment lost 13 aircraft, 7 pilots did not return from combat missions, and 5 were wounded. After withdrawal to the rear on 18 September 1942, 126 IAP was re-equipped with the La-5 and subsequently fought only in Soviet-manufactured aircraft.

 

 

There are many examples of fighter units being very successful, when comparing their claims against their own losses,  

[SCG_motoadve]

Problem in single player is you never can take the AI by surprise, like dive into them from high, shoot and then fly away.

Since the P40 dives fast it could be a tactic to use.

[von_Tom]

 

Taran attacks work quite well provided you have a lot of energy to be able to catch up with a Stuka. You might even survive

 

That or spawn in and start firing - something might fly across your path.

 

Von Tom

[F/JG300_Gruber]

I gave the aircraft a shot this morning on Berloga and aside from the fact that I somehow managed to not burn the engine out (a novelty for me in that crate, I wonder if 2.004 helped or not), I also noticed that it is as explosive as a bottle of nitroglycerine on a horse's back. Out of the 6 time I've been shot down, the plane exploded at the first burst in 4 of them, on the 5th one, it "only" exploded at the second burst. That puts it on top of my ranking for the most dangerous airplane for it's pilot.

 

Combat wise, I managed to surprise a couple 109s and get a victorious snapshot on a 3rd one but once the dance begins, I get my feet stomped pretty hard. 

[ShamrockOneFive]

I don't really fly it online too much but I would recommend using the Chennault doctrine. Attack from above with altitude advantage as a team, make a firing pass and disengage by diving away out of combat. Getting sucked into dogfights with the P-40 is not a great idea.

 

I fly the P-40 more for the fun of it and usually as a fighter-bomber or bomber interceptor rather than as a competitive fighter.

[-WILD-AlbinoHA5E]

I don't disagree with this at all, the unfortunate thing for me is that offline your wingmen will not cooperate in this way, and the enemy will pursue me to the ends of the earth so disengaging rarely works.

 

Online, the layout and nature of the objectives and fighting also makes it difficult to do hit and run in my opinion, because distances are short with little room to intercept before the target. Not impossible like offline though.

With the New Marshall System, maybe we will get, not Radar, but maybe Spotters and Flak Stations on the Ground, somewhat like CloD, giving away enemy aircraft positions, which would allow for better coordination of Air Defenses.

It is one of the things I really do miss in the game, the lack of Spotters on the Ground. It's even worse that not even the Ground Targets call out Air-Attacks, which is frankly ridiculous.

I mean, even Ground Spotters could call out simple stuff like:

 

"(ID of Spotter Station) - Small Formation of Heavy Aircraft - to the North - High Altitude - Heading South-West"

 

Aircraft Radios could call out similar information to Aircraft within Radio Range (where a P-40 would shine).

Ground Targets would call out when enemy Aircraft are about etc.

 

This would give Patrols an idea of where to go, and enable a Ground Controller to much better coordinate Fighter and Bomber Forces.

[ShamrockOneFive]

I don't disagree with this at all, the unfortunate thing for me is that offline your wingmen will not cooperate in this way, and the enemy will pursue me to the ends of the earth so disengaging rarely works.

 

Online, the layout and nature of the objectives and fighting also makes it difficult to do hit and run in my opinion, because distances are short with little room to intercept before the target. Not impossible like offline though.

 

True. Those AI wingmates aren't the best... though with the latest patch at least they don't pirouette to their death when breaking to attack! I still try and fly very conservatively though I feel confident because of good firepower, sturdy airframe and the fact that the P-40 looks so darn good! :D

 

Online it is possible. I see other folks doing ok with it. As many have said it works quite well as a fighter-bomber.

 

With the New Marshall System, maybe we will get, not Radar, but maybe Spotters and Flak Stations on the Ground, somewhat like CloD, giving away enemy aircraft positions, which would allow for better coordination of Air Defenses.

It is one of the things I really do miss in the game, the lack of Spotters on the Ground. It's even worse that not even the Ground Targets call out Air-Attacks, which is frankly ridiculous.

I mean, even Ground Spotters could call out simple stuff like:

 

"(ID of Spotter Station) - Small Formation of Heavy Aircraft - to the North - High Altitude - Heading South-West"

 

Aircraft Radios could call out similar information to Aircraft within Radio Range (where a P-40 would shine).

Ground Targets would call out when enemy Aircraft are about etc.

 

This would give Patrols an idea of where to go, and enable a Ground Controller to much better coordinate Fighter and Bomber Forces.

 

THIS. I'm very excited to see how the Marshal system gets implemented and what we might end up doing with it. That would complete the circle of the Chennault doctrine which also emphasized good spotting. A coordinated flight of P-40s diving through a spotted formation of bombers and fighters can be devastating. With six .50cals going and a couple of P-40s doing the flying, you can devastate a formation very quickly. Just don't stick around to tangle in one on one duels.