attention! [TWB]Elgonidas "THE GENTLEMAN"

[ITAF_LG965]

In this case "the gentleman"="the chutekiller"  

 

view stats here http://taw.stg2.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=18952&name=[TWB]Elgonidas

 

and follow the timeline, this is intentional! 

 

Cheers!   

 

 

[curiousGamblerr]

Yes, I'm sure it was, since the rules of TAW incentivize chute killing. This discussion has been had so many times. 

 

The admins of TAW have decreed chute killing is allowed. This is their prerogative. If you don't like it, get over it or don't fly TAW.

 

Please, take your sad attempt at personal shaming and go home.

[ACG_pezman]

Curious is right, TAW is war.  And, since we are being candid, I shoot every parachute I can.  Pilot deaths help win a campaign.  It sucks but so does all the other BS that happens on TAW.

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

Pilot deaths haven't mattered at all over the last 4 map rotations, so it's playing an insignificant part of winning the campaign.

 

The last rotation occurred with ~700+ pilots still available.

[Cybermat47]

It's a game, nobody cares about what somebody does to a bunch of pixels.

[Haza]

Is this the same 19.GIAP//CuriousGamblerr who on the 8 Oct was lecturing Mr Pickles about flight sims being a dying niche and not joking about a pilot's age as it is not in the interest of the gaming community and that we need to be inclusive of all ages?

 

 

I actually thought how mature Curious was at 24 to be telling others to stop making jokes about players based on their age and alienating players away from this gaming community.  In addition telling Mr Pickles that "Maybe we don't want to be flying with 10 year olds, but do we want kids seeing this and being turned off from the game, the community and the genre? (since this is the best the genre has to offer...)", renewed my faith in the 'youngsters' of today!  As a Father with a young son who wants to play this sim, I was encouraged to hear that there are those out there who want to encourage everybody to play. 

 

 

Yet, a few days later he is telling somebody to either get over it or leave and to "Please, take your sad attempt at personal shaming and go home".  

 

 

Owing to the fact that he was so supportive only a few days ago of others, I would like to think/believe that Curious' reply was a tongue in cheek response to ITAF_LG695 and hopefully ITAF_LG695 has taken it in the manner in which it was meant and will not be put off playing on TAW or any other server.  I agree TAW is war, but when you no longer have players to play against because they have all gone home, it becomes a dull and boring game!

 

 

Regards

 

Haza

Edited October 11, 2016 by Haza

[ITAF_LG965]

I apologize I did not know that the kill chute was encouraged. 

I thought the taw wanted to simulate reality as much as possible.  

Good to know!   

[Haza]

The reality is that chute killing did happen, therefore to ensure historical accuracy I guess you can not stop it.  However, as this is only a sim/game, there are lots players who believe that it should not be allowed and hence we start the whole those for and against, that leads to nowhere.

 

I would not say that TAW encourages it, however, it is allowed, as it is on other servers!

 

There are lots of posts about chute killing.  See link as an example:

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/24178-do-you-think-chutekilling-acceptable/?hl=%2Bchute+%2Bkillers&do=findComment&comment=374246

[Cybermat47]

I thought the taw wanted to simulate reality as much as possible.

Oh my God, you don't know anything about real life, do you?

 

"During December 1940, when the fighting on the northern front was particularly fierce, Squadron Leader Hickey was leading a detachment of aircraft on patrol, when they came across a formation of some ten Italian fighters and bombers. During the air battle that followed, one member of the squadron - "Sammy" Cooper, had to bale out after being severely wounded. On his way down, this officer was being machine gunned by Italian aircraft and Squadron Leader Hickey, seeing what was taking place, immediately began to circle round and round in the vicinity of his colleague, in order to attract the attention of Greek troops on the ground. At the same time he was able to keep at bay the Italian aircraft which were making repeated and determined attacks on the helpless man descending by parachute."

http://www.3squadron.org.au/subpages/hickeyw.htm

 

"... there was no blood lust or anything about it like that. It was just a matter of not wanting them back to have another go at us. I never shot any who landed where they could be taken prisoner."

- Group Captain Clive Caldwell, RAAF, explaining when and why he shot enemy pilots in their parachutes.

 

"I was hanging in the chute at about 2000 meters altitude when I noticed tracers passing near to me. They missed, but this pirate of the Third Reich not give up and attacked me again. This second time the wave of bullets also spared me. Shells passed to the left and right of my body. The German didn't get a third chance to kill me because my friend Jan Malinowski from 162nd Escadrille (flew on P.7a !) successfully attacked the German. On the first attack he set the right engine of the Bf 110 on fire, and on the second pass killed the pilot. The aircraft fell, crashing in pieces."

- Second Lieutenant Jan Dzwonek, Polish Air Force.

 

"Three fighters came after me. The first one missed and the second also missed. When the third one came by I was too low for him to shoot at me. When I hit the ground a burst of machine gun was fired at me. I hit the dirt fast. Then German soldiers came and drove me on a motorcycle to a building. On the way we passed a row of dead American airmen, about twelve of them covered with blood soaked parachutes. I knew they were shot dead on the way down."

- Thaen Kwock Lee, B-17 waist gunner, 483rd BG, 15th AF.

 

"But two Japanese pilots, in a parting gesture of hate, dived towards the descending parachute and poured long bursts of gunfire at the Brewster pilot swinging helplessly in the canopy rigging. A concerted and immediate growl of rage rose from most of us, conveying our feelings that the Japanese pilots had just perpetrated an act amounting to unfair tactics, treachery, and an outrageous course of conduct. Previously, among British and German pilots, an unwritten code of honour — chivalry, if you like — assumed that pilots descending by parachute should not be shot at by opposing aircraft. The Japanese served notice that they held no such gentlemanly opinions."

- Herb Plenty, Australian fighter pilot.

 

So yeah, sorry that Hollywood movies aren't as accurate as you thought. Turns out that war, that thing where people try to kill each other, can actually be pretty ugly.

Edited October 11, 2016 by Cybermat47

[Turban]

There is no life/death situation , this is just a game not real life.

 

You could easily exert some chivalry for cheap, you know, just to show some respect to fellow players.

However many people just enjoy being d**** . And that shows in every aspect of the game. "Victory at all cost" or "this is war" (lol, tough guys everywhere) is the general excuse.

 

Their choice I suppose, but then don't expect the general ambiance to be any good. Little groups of people playing together depending on matching mentalities. Not one big community. You reap what you sow I guess.

Edited October 11, 2016 by Turban

[CisTer-dB-]

I don't see anything wrong there, AI flak guns shoot at the chutes anyways.

[Cybermat47]

There is no life/death situation , this is just a game not real life.

 

You could easily exert some chivalry for cheap, you know, just to show some respect to fellow players.

However many people just enjoy being d**** . And that shows in every aspect of the game. "Victory at all cost" or "this is war" (lol, tough guys everywhere) is the general excuse.

 

Their choice I suppose, but then don't expect the general ambiance to be any good. Little groups of people playing together depending on matching mentalities. Not one big community. You reap what you sow I guess.

My post had nothing to do with this game. Frankly, in-game I find chute shooting to be boring and pointless.

 

I don't know where on Earth you got the idea that I was advocating that we partake in a useless and unentertaining excercise, when clearly the point of my post was to illustrate to LG965 that war is a bad thing, and that he should stop trying to whitewash it as if he's some 1914 propagandist, and stop making it sound like it's a chivalrous affair.

Edited October 11, 2016 by Cybermat47

[SCG_Neun]

Yes, historically many were shot in their chutes but this was not a policy advocated from command.  Galland told Goering when asked...that this was "murder" and Winston Churchill said it was like drowning a sailor.  For the pilots who do it and for those that condone it, hey go for it, none of us will convince you one way or the other, but I have to agree it's sets up a bad trend for the online community.  And I don't command a flak battery in this game, but I do have some say over our members, and we don't allow it.  We have gotten shot in our chutes, and we will just have to live with it...(pardon the pun).  For our "Dead is Dead" scoring it doesn't count as a KIA anyway.  For the game of kill to death ratios, blaze away and forge your own reputations.  I can't even do it to an AI pilot, let alone a cyber human pilot.  For those who are touting this as being historical, it's really not the full truth.  You see, many of the guys doing it now it would seem are some really high scoring ace pilots, and well, historically this caliber of pilot was not so low as to gun down a man hanging in a chute.  Too much esprit de corps.  No it was the classless lower end pilots for the most part that just wanted to kill someone helpless. 

Edited October 11, 2016 by 4./JG52_Neun

[CisTer-dB-]

Yes, historically many were shot in their chutes but this was not a policy advocated from command.  Galland told Goering when asked...that this was "murder" and Winston Churchill said it was like drowning a sailor.  For the pilots who do it and for those that condone it, hey go for it, none of us will convince you one way or the other, but I have to agree it's sets up a bad trend for the online community.  And I don't command a flak battery in this game, but I do have some say over our members, and we don't allow it.  We have gotten shot in our chutes, and we will just have to live with it...(pardon the pun).  For our "Dead is Dead" scoring it doesn't count as a KIA anyway.  For the game of kill to death ratios, blaze away and forge your own reputations.  I can't even do it to an AI pilot, let alone a cyber human pilot.  

Good point Neun. But it's only a game

[GSP_Hund]

Well as an "older" flyer of 56 I for one think this is abhorrent to do this type of thing, sim or no sim, this is not an FPS/quake game that all should be killed.  I for one will take a stance here and will no longer fly on the TAW server, since it encourages this type of activity it's not one I want to associate any longer with.  Even in WoL you seldom see this type of activity, but I guess on TAW anything goes to win the map, well F"@#k that!  Bye . . . .

[SCG_Neun]

Good point Neun. But it's only a game

Yes, but it can get like Grand Theft Auto if we don't watch it, which is really a game.  I play this more as a simulation.   I know it's going to happen from time to time, but from a squad sanctioned level is what concerns me.  I mean I'm going to fly no matter what and be darn careful if I bail (which is an area I've become very good at.)..maybe wait till I get lower to the ground now.     In fact, I'm going to do a tactical bail out training video and see if Requiem will host it.  

Edited October 11, 2016 by 4./JG52_Neun

[Stig]

There was an incident on the Channel front of a RAF pilot shooting at (i'm not sure if he hit or not) the chute of the pilot whose plane he had shot down. His squad mates chastised him for it back at base. 

 

 

Many years after the war, WWII aviation enthusiasts found that in this particular encounter where the RAF squadron also had lost 1 aircraft, that the Luftwaffe hadn't reported any losses but hadn't made any claims either!

[SCG_Neun]

I'd like to think that many of us play these games or simulations, whatever you want to call them, as a way to honor the sacrifice of the real men and woman who fought and died.  So I look at a cyber life in terms of the simulation as a real person, in honor of the real person hanging in that chute back in 1942 dangling there, half burned perhaps, awaiting capture or at best a hard damn fall after a very close call with death.  I see when the Developers do an interview with real pilots, or the real pilot videos of guys once enemies embracing each other or the real pilots that have actually flown our simulation here...I'd hate  for them to think we view what they went through as a damn type of pinball game of stats.  My dad fought in WWII and I saw the trauma inside that he brought back from that conflict and I would never dishonor him or the other men from all sides who went through so much by looking at this as just a game.  Call it corny, call it whatever you want, but that's the only way I view this as a way to experience through simulation...a slice of history.  I'm just trying to clarify the "its only a game" mentality.  I know I'm probably not the norm, but I think the guys on our unit feel the same way as well. When I say our unit, I mean the Luftwaffe side of Simulation Air Combat, it would appear the 19th has a different view.

Edited October 11, 2016 by 4./JG52_Neun

[[CPT]Pike*HarryM]

I think a lot of us feel that way Neun. Maybe it's an age thing, as a 50+ simmer I tend to look at in more historical terms, plus a very long interest in the subject (starting when I was a kid in the 70's building plastic models).

 

Stories like this make me not want to chute strafe. Not that I get very many chances as a 110 pilot...(lots of stupid errors in the story, typical Daily Mail, but the gist of it is true).

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3825552/Jimmy-Stewart-suffered-extreme-PTSD-lost-130-men-fighter-pilot-WW-II-acted-anguish-filming-s-Wonderful-Life.html

[CisTer-dB-]

Yes, but it can get like Grand Theft Auto if we don't watch it, which is really a game. I play this more as a simulation. I know it's going to happen from time to time, but from a squad sanctioned level is what concerns me. I mean I'm going to fly no matter what and be darn careful if I bail (which is an area I've become very good at.)..maybe wait till I get lower to the ground now. In fact, I'm going to do a tactical bail out training video and see if Requiem will host it.

[CisTer-dB-]

I fully undersstand you in fact I have good friends of mine that share the same line of tought. I am only speaking for myself, personaly I don't mind getting shot on my chute as a matter of fact I think it's a pretty good feature.

[curiousGamblerr]

Per Haza- I'm glad you appreciated my support in the other thread but I do not feel my statements here are in conflict with those I've made previously. In this thread we have someone 1) completely failing to read the TAW rules and follow the countless previous discussions on this topic, and then 2) taking their flawed conclusions and, here's the big issue, attempting to publicly shame another pilot for doing nothing objectively wrong. Subjective opinions on chute killing aside, I found this to be completely inappropriate. I think my anger at this individual attack is in line with my anger about the individual attack on age I took issue with in the other thread.

 

I will concede that my final words "and go home" were unneccesarily cheeky, but stand by my statement that OP's options are "get over it or don't fly TAW" because those are, in fact, his only options. This is not an opinion but the reality since the TAW admins have decided chute killing is allowed and are under no obligation to change their server (just as OP is under no obligation to fly on their server). My preference would be he chooses the 'get over it' option and continues to fly with us, but that's up to him.

 

I also want to point out that my original response includes absolutely no reference to my personal opinions on chute killing or the TAW rules. This discussion that has erupted about the acceptability of chute killing in general is also irrelevant to this thread. The TWB pilot in question was within the rules on TAW and thus did nothing objectively wrong. If you want to have a subjective discussion about chute killing in general, make a thread about that, but the issue of chute killing on TAW has been decided. 

 

My issue in this thread has to do with an individual attack on another pilot and a lack of respect for the TAW admins' decision.

 

Edit: Removed some personal opinions that aren't relevant here and clarified.

Edited October 11, 2016 by 19.GIAP//curiousGamblerr

[[TWB]Elgonidas]

[J2_Trupobaw]

The reality is that chute killing did happen, therefore to ensure historical accuracy I guess you can not stop it.  

 

The reality is that wifebeating was acceptable pasttime not so long time ago, so it should be represented in sitcoms and allowed Sims-like games set before 1970  . This is 2016, chute killing has been war crime for longer time than most of us are alive.

Edited October 14, 2016 by Trupobaw

[FTC_Etherlight]

I'd like to ask the Moderators to compile all those "Chute killin' is bad, mhkay!" threads in every bloody sub-forum into one nice mega-compilation, so I do not have to read the same arguments and complaints everytime I zap through them, but I guess the concentration of butthurt would probably immediately kill the entire forum.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

We do not propagating chut killing by allowing this in game. Wifebeating would be doing that if allowed in games.

[[TWB]Pand]

Remember guys, the point of PK is to drive the loss of that pilot's combat mission count (preventing more aircraft to be resupplied), and stop the repair of that pilot's ditched aircraft (resulting in the loss of those aircraft), and lastly to drive the pilot attrition war.

 

If those three items are changed in the TAW rules, that removes the purpose of the PK, and then everyone here can move on to the next unwarranted complaint.

I'm down with whatever the TAW Admins decide... They're still by far the best game in town. Salute!

[Haza]

The reality is that wifebeating was acceptable pasttime not so long time ago, so it should be represented in sitcoms and allowed Sims-like games set before 1970  . This is 2016, chute killing has been war crime for longer time than most of us are alive.

 

I think you find that chute killing technically is not actually a war crime.  It all depends who is under the chute and their intentions as to whether it is a war crime!!

However, happy to be corrected.

 

Regards

Edited October 15, 2016 by Haza

[JG5_Zesphr]

If someone chute kills so be it, however personally I won't because I would hate it if I was doing quite well with one bloke and then all his stats are reset so I won't do it to others 

 

Edit: Can't spell "Chute" correctly. 

Edited October 15, 2016 by JG5_Zesphr

[[TWB]Elgonidas]

If someone cute kills so be it, however personally I won't because I would hate it if I was doing quite well with one bloke and then all his stats are reset so I won't do it to others 

I'm very cute while I'm killing. :3

[JG5_Zesphr]

I'm very cute while I'm killing. :3

[[TWB]kl0udy-]

Curious is right, TAW is war.  And, since we are being candid, I shoot every parachute I can.  Pilot deaths help win a campaign.  It sucks but so does all the other BS that happens on TAW.

it doesnt suck... it doesnt really effect anything besides deaths... you guys out there complaining about it arent in real parachutes having planes shoot at you... such weirdo shit to be so mad about this its just crazy to me that you can lead a normal life and do normal life things witha thought process that allows you to be so mad about the chute killing thing that you would tell someone you "know what kind of a person they are in real life" due to whether or not they chute kill or say they are "dishonarable"...

 

get counseling. and im not talking about the person i quoted.. but no it doesnt suck.. its just a death. a death sucks i guess, but besides that, it doesnt suck, it doesnt effect you. and if it does, you should tlak to a professional

[Aap]

Indeed, it does not affect our real life and no reason to get mad at it, still it is dishonorable thing to do, no matter which way you twist it. Has always been.

[AbortedMan]

Indeed, it does not affect our real life and no reason to get mad at it, still it is dishonorable thing to do, no matter which way you twist it. Has always been.

Until there's a metric for "honor" on the scoreboard in the game or TAW website, this has zero relevance.

[Aap]

Until there's a metric for "honor" on the scoreboard in the game or TAW website, this has zero relevance.

 

Most people (humans) have this thing as part of their nature. TAW scoreboard has zero relevance in it.

Look, if some war game, let's say Call of Duty, allowed to rape women and you wanted to get on scoreboard as a top rapist, fine, but if you really have trouble of understanding the meaning of "honorable" without a metric, then that is really your problem.

Edited November 24, 2016 by II./JG77_Kemp

[CisTer-dB-]

Most people (humans) have this thing as part of their nature. TAW scoreboard has zero relevance in it.

Look, if some war game, let's say Call of Duty, allowed to rape women and you wanted to get on scoreboard as a top rapist, fine, but if you really have trouble of understanding the meaning of "honorable" without a metric, then that is really your problem.

Does it really allowed you to do that in Call of Duty? Seriously? This is sick

[Aap]

No, I don't think it does. Was just using it as a hypothetical example.

[Yakdriver]

The mental image...

[Aap]

Yes, but what does that have to do with anything? We are talking about a video game here. 

So what is your question exactly? We are talking about something in a video game that was dishonorable in real life. So that means that it is also dishonorable in the video game context. Like I said, if someone wants to play a role in a video game as a chute-shooter, POW-killer, rapist or whatever, so be it. It still does not make the act any more honorable, though. 

 

Again, it's only a game, there's no such thing as "honor" in a video game. I'd surely pursue the title of top rapist if it were to be included into CoD, that made me laugh lol. Furthermore, it's not his "problem", it's all on you, you are the one making a fuss about this "issue" lol.

Where exactly am I making a fuss about the issue? I have said it several times that it does not bother me if somebody does that. If you want to play as a chute-killer or rapist or whatever, then just go and do that. I don't care one bit. There is no need to come to tell that I am making a fuss if I choose not to do that kind of lame things.

Edited November 25, 2016 by II./JG77_Kemp

[Aap]

There is no "honor code" in video games, people play them to relax and have a laugh.

There is honor code in practically everything. Some people just don't get it. Let's say that chute-killing is not part of a "honor code" for some people. How about team killing? I am sure somebody gets a good laugh from that. Others might consider it unacceptable. Just different people, different views, different "honor code" levels in different games. 

Edited November 25, 2016 by II./JG77_Kemp