Re-Inventing the Wheel. (PWGC+WarhammsCG+Career Mode)

[Ace_Pilto]

So Jason posted a request of Community help thread about the new campaign and I was wondering, why re-invent the wheel from scratch when we already have so much usable data?

 

Making a campaign is very demanding in terms of research and man hours so why start from scratch when a lot of the historical constants have already been investigated by Pat Wilson and Warhamm? Both of their platforms have a lot to offer in terms of accumulated data, concepts and assets so, Is there some way that this foundation of work can be fairly "exploited"?(For want of a kinder word)

 

Also: How willing would Pat and Warhamm be to share their pre-existing accumulated knowledge? 

 

I feel as though a lot of time and effort could be saved here as well as a well deserved 'tip of the hat' going out to these guys who have already fleshed out the SP experience for so many of us. 

[Extreme_One]

Sounds sensible to me. A lot of the work has been done before.

[Haza]

So Jason posted a request of Community help thread about the new campaign and I was wondering, why re-invent the wheel from scratch when we already have so much usable data?

 

Making a campaign is very demanding in terms of research and man hours so why start from scratch when a lot of the historical constants have already been investigated by Pat Wilson and Warhamm? Both of their platforms have a lot to offer in terms of accumulated data, concepts and assets so, Is there some way that this foundation of work can be fairly "exploited"?(For want of a kinder word)

 

Also: How willing would Pat and Warhamm be to share their pre-existing accumulated knowledge? 

 

I feel as though a lot of time and effort could be saved here as well as a well deserved 'tip of the hat' going out to these guys who have already fleshed out the SP experience for so many of us. 

 

I think that owing to the fact that it has been the community who have kept on wanting this type of game play, Jason is allowing everybody the opportunity to contribute in a structured way.  I'm sure that Jason is well aware of what is available, however, putting it out there might hopefully offer up some "golden nuggets" that will benefit everybody.  To be honest, if Jason hadn't  done this and they just went ahead and did their own thing or just copied something else, everybody would be up in arms asking "Why didn't you ask for our help?".    Therefore I guess they are damned if they did and damned if they didn't.

 

I personally see this as an opportunity for the community to once again contribute to a game, where the developers are seeking the wealth of knowledge from those knowledgeable people that we have out there. Although I'm a firm believer in not reinventing the wheel, if you can make that wheel lighter and better, surely that is for the greater good!?  I'm sure that the abilities of the likes of Pat Wilson and Warhamm, have not gone un-noticed by Jason and therefore I'm sure that their inputs will be welcomed and hopefully they will assist and some how get the recognition for their inputs that they deserve!

 

Therefore, lets not turn this discussion into something that gets out of control and just wait for Jason (as he requested) to tell us what he needs and where, otherwise it will all get out of hand!!

 

 

DO NOT MAKE THREADS ABOUT THIS STUFF YET. WAIT FOR OFFICIAL AREA TO BE CREATED BEFORE POSTING ITEMS. LETS KEEP THIS PROCESS ORDERLY AND TIDY SO WE CAN MEET OUR DEADLINES MORE EASILY.

 

We did this process with the ROF Career and it got messy. Please let's try to work together, but efficiently. 

 

More soon...

 

Jason

 

 

Therefore Ace_Pilto, perhaps you should lock this thread down and wait until the official area is up and running to make your suggestion(s)!?

 

Just a thought!

 

regards

 

Haza

Edited October 5, 2016 by Haza

[Gambit21]

Yep

Not sure how one can be more clear than "DO NOT MAKE THREADS ABOUT THIS"

[Ace_Pilto]

 

 

Therefore Ace_Pilto, perhaps you should lock this thread down and wait until the official area is up and running to make your suggestion(s)!?

 

And perhaps you should go back to shitposting and downloading hacks since you don't have the wit to understand that this thread is about the validity of using existing data and not a part of the process that Jason is referring to. 

Edited October 5, 2016 by Ace_Pilto

[Haza]

And perhaps you should go back to shitposting and downloading hacks since you don't have the wit to understand that this thread is about the validity of using existing data and not a part of the process that Jason is referring to.[/quote

 

I'm not sure how you can try and make out that this has nothing to do with the recent announcement from Jason, yet then discuss the types of information that Jason requires. Perhaps your reply to me suggests why Jason requested that no threads be started. I may lack your so called wit,but I certainly make up in maturity and do not need to resort to childish replies to make my point. I hope that a moderator notices your childish rant and locks you out.

 

Regards and have a great day.

 

Haza

Edited October 5, 2016 by Haza

[Extreme_One]

FWIW I read Jason's instruction not to start threads as meaning don't start an "I've collected all this squadron data" thread or a "historical information day-by-day about action over Kuban" rather than Do Not Discuss this at all.

 

Telling people not to talk about something is ridiculous.

Telling people not to start collating data, until the relevant forum section has been created, is far more credible.

[LLv24_Zami]

Gentlemen, it has started: http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/forum/102-career-assistance/

[Jason_Williams]

I didn't want people to start a bunch of threads offering stuff. I need it to be organized and tidy. If you can help see the special Developer Assistance section for the Career. There are many topics, please read each into carefully to understand what we are looking for. 

 

If info or content from any other app can be used in our Career than that's great, but it must meet our specs. 

 

Jason

[LittleJP]

To be honest, the old IL-2 dynamic campaign ported over would make me a very happy man. Change the timeframes for the possibility of multiple sorties per day, tweak the promotion rates due to a relatively shorter timeframe, and keep the enemy/friend ace/wingman kills, your own kills, etc.

 

Make sure the AI is adjustable on the player end so that you don't have laser AAA the more you play, and this sim would really become my go-to.

[Extreme_One]

To be honest, the old IL-2 dynamic campaign ported over would make me a very happy man.

I know what you're saying, there's a lot to like about the DGen* system but I really hope (and think they are) aiming for a more advanced system.

 

DGen was good and all, but pretty limited and probably not up to snuff to satisfy the modern palette.

 

*I'd love to know how Starshoy is, I haven't heard from him in aaaaaaages.

Edited October 6, 2016 by Extreme_One

[74_jim_nihilist]

I know what you're saying, there's a lot to like about the DGen* system but I really hope (and think they are) aiming for a more advanced system.

 

DGen was good and all, but pretty limited and probably not up to snuff to satisfy the modern palette.

 

*I'd love to know how Starshoy is, I haven't heard from him in aaaaaaages.

I think the only thing I don't like is with the DGen campaigns is that you after awhile know where you will meet the enemy, other than that... what do you consider "modern palette"? BOS, BOM, DCS, *cough* War Thunder...there is NOTHING that matches DGen in its variety and fuction or I am missing something? You could recreate whole fronts and tell stories with it.  It does a lot of things right.

[Extreme_One]

I think the only thing I don't like is with the DGen campaigns is that you after awhile know where you will meet the enemy, other than that... what do you consider "modern palette"? BOS, BOM, DCS, *cough* War Thunder...there is NOTHING that matches DGen in its variety and fuction or I am missing something? You could recreate whole fronts and tell stories with it.  It does a lot of things right.

 

I think that's the main issue, it quickly becomes predictable. The mission types become repetitive and the briefings and debriefings need to be spiced up a bit. Hopefully the new campaign the 1C/777 team create will prove more interesting in all regards.

[Jason_Williams]

Unless you are going to write hundreds of custom briefings a lot of variety is not possible in briefings.

 

Jason

[Gunsmith86]

there is NOTHING that matches DGen in its variety and fuction or I am missing something? You could recreate whole fronts and tell stories with it.  It does a lot of things right.

 The best campaign is this one nothing beats it but RoF PWCG comes close:

http://www.overflandersfields.com/features-Campaign.html

 

watch from 1:20

 

and this one:

Edited October 6, 2016 by Gunsmith86

[Gambit21]

You guys remember the EAW briefings with the boots shuffling on the floor, the sounds of chairs, etc - then the big map on the wall?

Still has not been equaled by any combat sim to date. 

[Feathered_IV]

Unless you are going to write hundreds of custom briefings a lot of variety is not possible in briefings.

 

Jason

Jason, if help is needed with text for briefing templates do let us know. The Rise of Flight career has only one mission preamble per mission type "Today we are bombing railway station" for example. If we can create more variations to that which are chosen and displayed at random it will make a very big difference to the playability of the new campaign.

Edited October 7, 2016 by Feathered_IV

[Extreme_One]

Jason, if help is needed with text for briefing templates do let us know. The Rise of Flight career has only one mission preamble per mission type "Today we are bombing railway station" for example. If we can create more variations to that which are chosen and displayed at random it will make a very bit difference to the playability of the new campaign.

Exactly, if there were three or four templates per mission type, this would really help keep things interesting.

[74_jim_nihilist]

I think that's the main issue, it quickly becomes predictable. The mission types become repetitive and the briefings and debriefings need to be spiced up a bit. Hopefully the new campaign the 1C/777 team create will prove more interesting in all regards.

 

Indeed, but that is maybe really easy to program? There is a mission pack for Cliffs of Dover from Desastersoft there is some randomness programmed. So even if you play the mission 2 or 3 times it is possible to find other planes at other positions. And CLOD is how old? Okay, these are handmade missions, but look at PWCG. It does exactly that with a historical background, too. Those planes you'll find even are simulated (off map most of the time, but you see them when you cross their path).

 

I mean that is my main critisism of the Mission Generator that is implemented in BOS/BOM right now. I can't remember seeing planes besides the "point of action" just like the old IL2 1946 DGen missions.

 

@Gunsmith86

Touché. I own WOFF, but since I am not that much into WW1 never played it extensively.

 

@Jason

At least maybe the briefing part can be modded later on? I know it is difficult to activate people for things that doesn't exist yet, but if it is out and people get bored by the same text over and over mabye then somebody will help? But I am happy anyway that after all these years silently buying BOS/BOM/BOK finally the SP community gets heard. It was what I was hoping for. People still buy IL2 1946 because of the massive content for SP.

Edited October 7, 2016 by 74_jim_nihilist

[PatrickAWlson]

For PWCG I came up with a concept of virtual way points (VWP) to emulate a flights path.  Each VWP is a collection of MCUs that activate a checkzone, then deactivate it and move to the next one after a short period of time.  When the planes spawn the next link in the chain is deactivated, effectively breaking the chain and ensuring that the same flight does not spawn twice.  The VWPs are 30 seconds to 1 minute apart so there can be dozens of VWPs for every actual flight path.  Once a plane is spawned it stays on the map until it is out of contact with any enemy (not just the player).  Since I can do this today, so could 1C.

 

Where 1C has a huge advantage over me is they have the ability to do something even better.  They could take my discrete VWP implementation and replace it with a continuous virtual flight path.  The flight is "flying" only in the sense that the game is tracking its path.  If it hits has a reason to spawn it spawns.  It could go virtual again when out of contact.  The result would be the same as what I have done but smoother, probably with better performance,  and with more options.

[Feathered_IV]

Yep, why not ask 'us' to write briefings, just give us a format and if every vocal/interested person made 10... You could have hundreds of options/ideas/versions... They may be similar, but different enough to add value?

 

 

That would be good. Compared to the effort required for the Newspaper articles, the time spent on more diverse briefing templates would be extremely worthwhile.

[Jade_Monkey]

Hi Pat,

 

Im surprised there is no better integration of your work with the game. The goals (with the new campaign) seem to be nearly identical.

[PatrickAWlson]

Hi Pat,

 

Im surprised there is no better integration of your work with the game. The goals (with the new campaign) seem to be nearly identical.

 

Technology is not really the issue.  My code is Java and theirs is (I think) C++.  C++ and Java can talk to each other, so that is not that hard to overcome if the underlying Java code (that would be PWCG) is extremely well architected.  1C would have to build the UI code to replace all of the PWCG UI code.  Finally, 1C would have to take ownership of PWCG for modifications.  This too is possible.

 

What makes it improbable are facts on the ground.  PWCG is not architected such that UI is completely separated from underlying logic through APIs.  Partly, maybe even mostly, but there would still be a lot of work there.  I doubt that a 1C employee would want to take that on.  So why doesn't 1C just work with me?  They are in Moscow and I am in the US.  I am not a 1C employee.  I do this part time.  Even if 1C wanted to do this, I can't commit to that kind of engagement.

 

1C can have the PWCG code at any time to use or discard as they see fit.  I don't know that the code as Java would be of interest, but some of the algorithms and concepts might help them.  We'll see what the future brings.

[Jade_Monkey]

Yes, perhaps just using the logic in the algorithms would be a good head start.

 

Either way, i really appreciate your work!

[Dutch2]

So Jason posted a request of Community help thread about the new campaign and I was wondering, why re-invent the wheel from scratch when we already have so much usable data?

 

Making a campaign is very demanding in terms of research and man hours so why start from scratch when a lot of the historical constants have already been investigated by Pat Wilson and Warhamm? Both of their platforms have a lot to offer in terms of accumulated data, concepts and assets so, Is there some way that this foundation of work can be fairly "exploited"?(For want of a kinder word)

 

Also: How willing would Pat and Warhamm be to share their pre-existing accumulated knowledge? 

 

I feel as though a lot of time and effort could be saved here as well as a well deserved 'tip of the hat' going out to these guys who have already fleshed out the SP experience for so many of us. 

 

We all know Jason did publish that the days of a decent career mode is gone and a new breed of gamers do not care about this mode, or something like that!!!! Now Jason is talking about a "career mode", sorry I can not follow the strategy he is going to. First it seems he is following the War thunder and World of warplanes direction and now this.     

OK, I think it is great that there will be an carreer mode, but I also think that 1C should not burn money and labour on that, while this community can do the job. If we take a close look at the RoF career this will bring us an carreer mode that will be 4-5 years in the Beta phase, always need an internet connecting [why?] and when the game has been abandoned by 1C like RoF, the last update will be to remove the Beta text.   As a result new planes can not be introduced to the career mode and do not forget players always have different opinion about what is a good career mode, [WoFF, Falcon4, RB3d, Il2-1946 style], so not everybody will be pleased.  

 

I know 1C and Jason were always very suspicious and when it becomes to 3th party mods, but I think that 1C should only bring in a SDK that every career designer could use to program his own IN-GAME career mode, like we see the ANKOR-GUI software tool for implementing PWCG into RoF. If 1C would be more open to that, they could save lots of money and labour that better could be spent in a decent Pacific map. 

Edited October 8, 2016 by Dutch2

[PatrickAWlson]

Jason has never been suspicious and has always been supportive.  He has very much been my ally in everything that I have attempted.  He doesn't always get his way and with a small outfit making a product for a niche market (a combat flight sim as hard core as RoF/BoS is a niche market) there are never enough resources to do everything that you want to do.  He has a tough job.  One can agree or disagree with Jason's/1Cs decisions (they are not necessarily the same) but I never question that they are into their work and trying their best.

 

BTW: Jason did say that incorporating PWCG into BoS was on  the to-do list.  I personally just use alt-tab but I know that integration means a lot to some.

[Dutch2]

Pat, there is nothing wrong on being suspicious, do not get me wrong on this, so no problem somekind of judgement done by beta testers or 1c. I only hope 1C does make the right decision.

Edited October 8, 2016 by Dutch2

[Dakpilot]

We all know Jason did publish that the days of a decent career mode is gone and a new breed of gamers do not care about this mode, or something like that!!!! Now Jason is talking about a "career mode", sorry I can not follow the strategy he is going to. First it seems he is following the War thunder and World of warplanes direction and now this.     

OK, I think it is great that there will be an carreer mode, but I also think that 1C should not burn money and labour on that, while this community can do the job. If we take a close look at the RoF career this will bring us an carreer mode that will be 4-5 years in the Beta phase, always need an internet connecting [why?] and when the game has been abandoned by 1C like RoF, the last update will be to remove the Beta text.   As a result new planes can not be introduced to the career mode and do not forget players always have different opinion about what is a good career mode, [WoFF, Falcon4, RB3d, Il2-1946 style], so not everybody will be pleased.  

 

I know 1C and Jason were always very suspicious and when it becomes to 3th party mods, but I think that 1C should only bring in a SDK that every career designer could use to program his own IN-GAME career mode, like we see the ANKOR-GUI software tool for implementing PWCG into RoF. If 1C would be more open to that, they could save lots of money and labour that better could be spent in a decent Pacific map. (

 

99% (or maybe even 100%) of this is so inaccurate, and based on what? it barely needs replying to, however if English is not your first language then I apologise (simply for your misunderstanding)

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Gambit21]

99% (or maybe even 100%) of this is so inaccurate, and based on what? it barely needs replying to, however if English is not your first language then I apologise (simply for your misunderstanding)

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

Oh it's definitely 100%

[74_jim_nihilist]

"they could save lots of money and labour that better could be spent in a decent Pacific map."

 

Look I've waited since the release of BOS that they implement something better than this simple arcade career mode that we have now. I don't let it spoil it by you claiming that the rescources are better spent for creating a map full of water.

 

You have to be kidding.

[Ace_Pilto]

And perhaps you should go back to shitposting and downloading hacks since you don't have the wit to understand that this thread is about the validity of using existing data and not a part of the process that Jason is referring to.[/quote

 

I'm not sure how you can try and make out that this has nothing to do with the recent announcement from Jason, yet then discuss the types of information that Jason requires. Perhaps your reply to me suggests why Jason requested that no threads be started. I may lack your so called wit,but I certainly make up in maturity and do not need to resort to childish replies to make my point. I hope that a moderator notices your childish rant and locks you out.

 

Regards and have a great day.

 

Haza

 

That's a decent thing to say Haza, sorry to be so hard on you but it's been a very difficult year for me and I have been under great stress. I hope you can excuse my poor behaviour.