The Spitfire V in BOK

[PantsPilot]

I'm just wondering and hoping that the devs give this aircraft an alternative wing armament to the standard 2x20mm cannon and 4x303 cal mg's (with 60 cannon rpg in the "B" wing), namely the "C" wing that gave the Mark V the ability to be armed with a similar armament but with the 20mm cannon now having 120 rpg, or in addition as an alternative the potent 4x20mm cannon and no mg's. These were standard armament options on the Mark V and historical. 

 

I believe the Mark V's used by the VVS in the Kuban battle (as far as I know), were reportedly the "B" wing variant, BUT we've already had poetic license in the form of the FW-190 in the Stalingrad campaign and the 20mm cannon wing-pods slung under the Mc.202, which wasn't used anywhere let alone over Russia as far as I can tell!

 

The Spitfire V in 1943 was slowly being phased out of frontline use by the RAF against the Luftwaffe where possible, as the Spitfire IX had began replacing it as early as 1942 to regain it's ability to successfully counter the German fighters of the time that had been lost in 1941 especially against the 190. Consequently it's going to be largely outclassed by the FW-190A5, but adding bit of variety in it's armament options might make it more interesting to fly in what is going to be a difficult environment. The "C" wing also adds the option of 2x250lb bombs - one under each wing too, or a 500 lb bomb slung under the fuselage.

 

If the devs at some stage add a Malta or an Africa map, then we've got a pretty good plane set complete for Malta 1942 (Spitfire V, Mc.202, Ju-88, He.111, Bf-109F/G, Bf-110E, Ju87D etc.  

 

Or Africa 1942-43 (Spitfire V, P-40E (Kittyhawk), A20 (Boston), Bf-109 E/F/G, Mc.202, Ju-87D, Ju-88, He-111, Fw-190A, BF110E/G etc.

 

Hell many have even got Med/African skins already.... 

Edited October 3, 2016 by PantsPilot

[ShamrockOneFive]

It's an interesting thought. I'm a huge Spitfire fan personally so I'm loving the fact that I'll be able to fly one again soon.

 

The Spitfires used in the Kuban region were were all Mark Vb with Merlin 45 and Merlin 46 engines. There was discussion over which engine should be allowed (or both) but I don't think anyone talked about wings. The difference between adding a gunpod is that in this case we're actually changing the whole wing. There are a number of small differences between the B and C type wings some of which I was only recently made aware of - the C type wing actually moves two of the .303 Brownings outwards slightly.

 

So it may end up being more work than we would think. Maybe they will still do it. I know I'd much prefer to have the 120 belt fed option of the C wing Hispanos vs the 60 round drum fed of the B wing but I'll make do  

[Crump]

http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/spit/

[KoN_]

This Will be interesting is this not out classed by the 190 .

[Finkeren]

This Will be interesting is this not out classed by the 190 .

Certainly depends on what you mean by "outclassed".

 

If you're talking top speed, firepower and roll rate, then yes.

 

If you take things like sustained turn, climb rate etc (which might be more important for much of the fighting that happens in MP) then not so much.

[II./JG77_Manu*]

 

 

climb rate

190-A5 had comparable climb rate to the early Spit Mk9, better then Spit Mk5 

[BlitzPig_EL]

I suspect that the Spit Mk. V will be as disappointing as the P40E was.

 

Only time will tell for sure.

[Jade_Monkey]

I suspect that the Spit Mk. V will be as disappointing as the P40E was.

 

Only time will tell for sure.

Please don't say that.

 

I cannot fathom something being more disappointing than p40.

 

I think the different sound and the lack of the sensation of speed exacerbate the feeling that its a slow plane.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Factually speaking both the P-39 and Spitfire were at face value slightly outperformed in 1943, but they reached good scores over Kuban because of tactics and good fire power. All things considered, both manoeuvre well, climb well and reach good top speeds, even if the opposition is faster and accelerates slightly better. So long as we don't go around furballing at 150m they will be useful.

[Finkeren]

190-A5 had comparable climb rate to the early Spit Mk9, better then Spit Mk5

Ok, I'm probably mixing some numbers up off the top of my head.

 

In any case, the A5 will have a bigger edge over the Spit than the A3.

[Finkeren]

I suspect that the Spit Mk. V will be as disappointing as the P40E was.

 

Only time will tell for sure.

I can't say for sure, how the Spit will perform, it might well disappoint (though it can't really "disappoint" me in any other way than simply being poorly modelled) but one thing is for sure: It won't be anything like the P-40E.

 

The main problem for the P-40 is, that it's severely underpowered for such a heavy aircraft and has the single worst power-to-weight ratio of any fighter in the sim.

 

The Spit Mk. V on the other hand will have one of the best ratios in the sim. On par with the Bf 109 G4 and second only to the I-16.

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

The main problem for the P-40 is, that it's severely underpowered for such a heavy aircraft and has the single worst power-to-weight ratio of any fighter in the sim.

Yes and no, lack of power could be compensated if engine limits werent nearly as strict. 

 

In regard to Spitfire, I wonder how it will look in terms of stability. It wasn't known for great stability characteristics to be honest. 

[Finkeren]

Yes and no, lack of power could be compensated if engine limits werent nearly as strict.

 

In regard to Spitfire, I wonder how it will look in terms of stability. It wasn't known for great stability characteristics to be honest.

Yeah no question, the P-40 was hit harder than any other plane by the strict interpretation of engine limits.

 

Still wouldn't change the fact, that the P-40E is sorta underpowered, and the Spit Mk. V is sorta not.

 

With regards to stability, that might well be the area, where the Spit could hold a nasty surprise. Stability is kind of very important in this sim.

 

In any case, as long as the modelling is accurate, I'm a happy Finkeren. I don't need the VVS planes to match up to the Luftwaffe's.

[II./JG77_Manu*]

Ok, I'm probably mixing some numbers up off the top of my head.

 

In any case, the A5 will have a bigger edge over the Spit than the A3.

 

Not necessarily - the Spit Mk5 with Merlin 45 had a better climbrate then the A5, comparable to the G2 (4,6 min to 5k). The Merlin 46 we will get (probably) is around 5,5 something, while the A5 is close to 5 mins (with 1.42). Should have made it clearer before i guess 

 

 

Yeah no question, the P-40 was hit harder than any other plane by the strict interpretation of engine limits.

 

Still wouldn't change the fact, that the P-40E is sorta underpowered, and the Spit Mk. V is sorta not.

 

With regards to stability, that might well be the area, where the Spit could hold a nasty surprise. Stability is kind of very important in this sim.

 

In any case, as long as the modelling is accurate, I'm a happy Finkeren. I don't need the VVS planes to match up to the Luftwaffe's.

 

P40 is not necessarily underpowered, at full power it generated around 1700hp, which results in the same power/weight ratio then the Lagg3-pf with 700kg of fuel, and the same power/weight then Yak1b with 350kg of fuel. It's really only the engine limits, that are the problems of this bird.

Gotta be interesting how the engine limits will be modeled for the Mark5, because with lower boost the power/weight isn't that impressive as well.

We can just hope for the best i guess, i really want to get a Spit with useful boost without having to fear that i might kill the engine any second

[BlitzPig_EL]

Manu, my fear exactly.

 

I also hope at some point that we will get a P40 with the limits that the Western Allies actually used in combat.

 

The Hawks (75, 81, 87) will always be my favorites.

[Finkeren]

P40 is not necessarily underpowered, at full power it generated around 1700hp, which results in the same power/weight ratio then the Lagg3-pf with 700kg of fuel, and the same power/weight then Yak1b with 350kg of fuel. It's really only the engine limits, that are the problems of this bird:

Everything I've read about the V-1710 seems to indicate, that the 1700hp WEP setting was only cleared in late 1943, which means it wouldn't be relevant for the P-40E we have in game.

[InProgress]

We have bf109, we will have spitfire, maybe we will get battle of Britain

[Finkeren]

We have bf109, we will have spitfire, maybe we will get battle of Britain

Wrong Spitfire, and not quite the right Bf 109 either

[[TWB]80hd]

"The Kittyhawk was considered an "average" aircraft in the Soviet VVS, better than the I-15, I-16, and Hurricane, but not as good as the P-39, Yak, or Lavochkin. Therefore, the typical P-40 regiment started the war with the I-15, I-16, or MiG-3. After losing these airframes in combat, by early 1942 these regiments were being equipped with the P-40C. "

 

If those poor bastards (no offense, I am not implying they did not know who their fathers were) in the VVS had to fly the P-40 that we do, BoS would be the last installment of the Eastern Front series of flight sims. (Because the Soviets would have lost.  Tongue in cheek.  This isn't really true.)

Of course (i.e., on the other hand), if they had the MiG-3 we do (which is a fantastic fighter compared to historical report), well, BoM would've been the last installment (because the P-51MiG would wipe the Luftwaffe from the sky) hahahaha (<--- indicates a joke).
 

Edited October 6, 2016 by [TWB]80hd

[Asgar]

 

If those poor bastards in the VVS had to fly the P-40 that we do, BoS would be the last installment of the Eastern Front series of flight sims.

Of course, if they had the MiG-3 we do, well, BoM would've been the last installment hahahaha

 

...and they call us Luftwhiners

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

Poor Pityhawk. Pulled around everywhere. 

[ShamrockOneFive]

The P-40E-1 performance is a bit disappointing... But I think I would feel better about it if the engine noise had a little more oompf behind it.

 

In addition to getting the Spitfire V performance right. I hope the Hispano 20mms sound awesome and the Merlin has its characteristic rumble.

 

I mean... just listen to this thing: 

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

"The Kittyhawk was considered an "average" aircraft in the Soviet VVS, better than the I-15, I-16, and Hurricane, but not as good as the P-39, Yak, or Lavochkin. Therefore, the typical P-40 regiment started the war with the I-15, I-16, or MiG-3. After losing these airframes in combat, by early 1942 these regiments were being equipped with the P-40C. "

 

If those poor bastards in the VVS had to fly the P-40 that we do, BoS would be the last installment of the Eastern Front series of flight sims.

Of course, if they had the MiG-3 we do, well, BoM would've been the last installment hahahaha

 

Except that if you look at that sentence properly (not that a phrase from any article is anything more than some educated lad's word), the P-40 is considered better than the I-15, I-16 and Hurricane, but it would be introduced to regiments that flew the I-16, I-15 and MiG-3.

 

The MiG-3 was usually replaced because there were just too few of them left, since many were lost in the opening days of the war, production ceased by the end of 1941, and new engines were not being made any more. You can't fly what you can't have, and you can't fly what you have if you don't have engines to fly it. 

[Jade_Monkey]

The P-40E-1 performance is a bit disappointing... But I think I would feel better about it if the engine noise had a little more oompf behind it.

 

In addition to getting the Spitfire V performance right. I hope the Hispano 20mms sound awesome and the Merlin has its characteristic rumble.

 

I mean... just listen to this thing: 

Nice video!

 

Was it the perspective or the takeoff was very short?

 

Also, does anyone know if we are getting the clipped wing version?

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

I wonder if instead of the P-40E the P-40B/C was added it would have been liked more by the players... yeah it was slower and had less powerful armament, but it was more agile and had better climbrate iirc.

Edited October 6, 2016 by -=PLR=-SuperEtendard

[II./JG77_Manu*]

Everything I've read about the V-1710 seems to indicate, that the 1700hp WEP setting was only cleared in late 1943, which means it wouldn't be relevant for the P-40E we have in game.

Wasn't aware of that..but we have full boost in the game, haven't we? MP-gauge doesn't go that far, but if it moves linear to the throttle input, it seems we have

[BlitzPig_EL]

The boost used in the game is lower than the US and the Western Allies used in actual combat.

 

Essentially it is what was used in flight training aircraft here in the States.

 

In real life a V1710 would never seize up after X number of minutes at 42 inches.   It's a victim of poor game mechanics.

 

But whatever, it will not be changed, I have given up hope of that, along with flying it.  I just hope that the P39 is not as conservatively modeled.

[simplyjames]

In real life how long could the p40 use combat power? Just wondering if there's other info or speculation by pilots.

I have a ton of fun flying the p40 but typically in ground attack or intercepts. Against 109's its definitely fun but my hopes aren't up as far as getting home goes

[BlitzPig_EL]

Problem is, in real life engines are not on a timer that shatters them after a certain time has elapsed at a certain power level.   That is what I mean by a game mechanic.

 

It real life if you ran at War Emergency Power, you flew home and the engine either required extended service or was replaced.  But it still flew you home.

 

The max running settings are set to give huge margins of safety and lower costs, if you exceed them your engine does not blow up after 5 minutes like they do in games.

 

Set in stone limitations are not realistic at all, they are used by game developers to keep people from flying at full throttle all the time in our compressed combat arenas.

 

It will be interesting to see how the P39, and A20 do.

[Jade_Monkey]

Like you said, we get a factory fresh plane every time, so nobody would worry about the engine if we could run it at emergency for a long while.

 

Its a game mechanic compromise that was made that turned out pretty bad for the p40 in particular

[ShamrockOneFive]

Nice video!

 

Was it the perspective or the takeoff was very short?

 

Also, does anyone know if we are getting the clipped wing version?

 

I was at an airshow several years back that was at a grass airstrip. They had a Bf109E-3, Spitfire LF.IXc and Hurricane Mark IIb (actually I think it was a Canada Car & Foundry Mark X) and all three of them took off and landed on this fairly short grass strip. I'm assuming none of them nor this Spitfire Vb were fully weighed down either.

 

No-one has said anything about the clipped wing version. The Soviets never received any although it might still be nice to have.

[II./JG77_Manu*]

In real life a V1710 would never seize up after X number of minutes at 42 inches.   It's a victim of poor game mechanics.

Agree

 

Like you said, we get a factory fresh plane every time, so nobody would worry about the engine if we could run it at emergency for a long while.

In real life there were many sorties without enemy contacts, so no need for high boost. Then there were quite some sorties attacking bombers or ground stuff, again no need for high boost. In the rare occasions, one met enemy fighters on a par to par situation, where high performance was important/needed, you can be pretty sure, that pilots used the highest boost setting possible, regardless the plane. 1946 modeled/simplified this in a realistic way, Cliffs of Dover does it realistic, DCS does it different but also more realistic (random engine seize after a time which exceeded the manual times by a huge margin).

BoS/M/X topsy-turvifies the real life aircraft performance. The ones who benefit the most by far are the Russian planes, thus overperforming in comparison to all other aircraft. The ones who get hurt the most are/will be western aircraft - English and American, especially Allison and Merlin engines (Spitfires, Mustangs, Hawks)...let's see how this will pan out. Very afraid that Mark 5 and Kobra won't match the Yak1/Yak7 combat performance...

Edited October 6, 2016 by II./JG77_Manu*

[BlitzPig_EL]

That is what I'm thinking too Manu.

 

The V1710 was a very robust engine.

 

For years, and maybe it's still true, anyone that built a Merlin for use at the Reno air races used Allison connecting rods in it as they were far stronger than the Rolls Royce con rods were.

[[TWB]80hd]

...and they call us Luftwhiners

 

My comment about the MiG-3 was stating that it is overperforming compared to its historical account.

 

Next time I will use smaller words and less charming wit so you won't need to bleat so emotionally. 

[Asgar]

My comment about the MiG-3 was stating that it is overperforming compared to its historical account.

 

Next time I will use smaller words and less charming wit so you won't need to bleat so emotionally.

Stop being condescending

 

Maybe you should watch the context of what you have written. First you complained about he P-40 and you used the exact same wording for the MiG

 

Hauptsache jeder kann perfekt Englisch, damit du keine andere Sprache lernen musst.

Edited October 6, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Asgar

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

In addition to getting the Spitfire V performance right. I hope the Hispano 20mms sound awesome and the Merlin has its characteristic rumble.

 

I mean... just listen to this thing: 

Nah, a DB605 sounds better in my opinion

 

Fun aside devs managed to improve audio quality of BoM aircrafts quite a bit compared to BoS ones (also upgraded the 109s with better sounds meanwhile) so maybe we can expect another suprise with BoK. Yet I wouldn't expect to have "the real deal" but rather sth. that sounds similar enough.

 

If Jason manages to push mod support forward this shouldn't be a problem though.

[Asgar]

There is a video with a Bf 109 sound mod for BoS floating around on YouTube

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

What power setting are we most likely gonna see for the Mk V? Since from wwiiaircraftperformance I see +9, +12 and +16 lbs/sqin, considering timeframe April to October 1943, I would guess +16 would be the setting according to this

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/merlin-45-limitations.jpg dated July to Sept 1942

 

          The operational limitations of the Merlin 45 have been increased, the use of 3000 R.P.M. and +16 lb/sq.in. boost being now permitted for periods not exceeding 3 minutes during combat. Tests have been made to determine the performance of the aeroplane at this new rating, and also whether the oil and radiator cooling are adequate. The performance fiqures obtained at the normal engine rating are included for purposes of comparison.

 

Edited October 6, 2016 by RoflSeal

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

I'd rather ask for how long this setting will be permissible  

[6./ZG26_Custard]

There is a video with a Bf 109 sound mod for BoS floating around on YouTube