Let's take a moment appreciate, what the devs are doing

[Finkeren]

The recent news from the last couple of weeks has been very well recieved by almost the entire community. Finally we're getting the career/campaign mode, we've all been dreaming of. Gone is the "advanced random mission generator". Gone are the unpopular unlocks, which caused people to seriously discuss ways of letting the autopilot grind missions, so they didn't have to actually play the game. Gone is (presumably) the pilot level system, which made the difficulty of missions for high-level pilots absolutely draconian without any relations to the tide of war.

 

Like most people I share the joy, so much so that it prompted me to come out of hiding before I had planned, I was never particularly excited about the campaign mode(though it got much better over time), I didn't think the unlocks belonged in a true sim and I thought the level system was clunky and unnecessary.

 

However, I think we should take a moment to appreciate just how difficult this must have been for the devs. "Kill your darlings" is an often repeated mantra in any kind of design work, but it is not an easy task to do in real life, especially when you have to kill off huge portions of the work you have poured thousands of man-hours and ressources into. It can't have been easy to watch large portions of the community reject the majority of the entire game outside the sim itself, and even harder to make the decission to abandon your previous work and allocate even more manpower and money into building something else more to our liking.

 

We have to keep in mind, that the devs didn't design the campaign mode, unlocks and level system just to annoy us. They genuinely wanted to create something new, that wasn't the career mode from RoF or the old IL2 and wanted to incorporate game mechanics, that had proven succesful in more casual games like War Thunder. Perhaps it was misguided, not realizing that we flight simmers are a conservative lot who'd rather have an upgraded version of what we thought was great 10-15 years ago than something completely new, and that WT as a game is so far removed from a true historical sim, that you can't just import its mechanics directly.

 

I believe that the devs made a couple of bad design choices when building BoS back in the day, but they did so with the best of intentions, and uprooting large parts of the design to give the community pretty much exactly what it wants is a bold move that deserves to be recognized. Yeah, it's also a smart move business wise, but keep in mind, that the parts of the community who don't buy BoK will still benefit from the devs' hard work, since the new campaign incorporates BoS and BoM as well.

 

Cudos to the devs on making a hard choice, which will no doubt more than double their workload in making BoK

Edited September 24, 2016 by Finkeren

[Cybermat47]

I agree. It shows how the devs are dedicated to making a game that all of us can enjoy - and that's why I will never regret spending so much money on this game

[Extreme_One]

I agree.

 

If only they'd conducted meaningful market research before pouring thousands of man-hours into their design missteps. Or they could have just asked a random cross-section of twenty people from this community lol.

 

Anyway, that is the past. The future is much brighter now.

 

RIP Groundhog Day. Long live The Spirit Of '46!

[coconut]

There's somnething that's worrying me in all these good news. Is it even possible to deliver? I hope this sudden change, as welcome as it is by the community, is actually feasible. What makes me believe that is possible is the fact they can actually build upon what they have. Their "advanced random mission generator" is actually pretty good, and it shouldn't be too hard to steer the parameters controlling randomization using mission results. They aren't undoing or throwing away anything they've done, at least not in terms of technology. What they seem to be throwing away is some of the limitations they had put in place in the design, such as unlocks.

Edited September 24, 2016 by coconut

[Finkeren]

There's somnething that's worrying me in all these good news. Is it even possible to deliver?

That's always the fear I have, when it comes to software development. However, this particular team has a proven track record of delivering on promises and not promising too much too soon (it's for that reason, they won't promise a coop mode for the new campaign, though it's obvious that they want to make this posible)

 

I won't say the devs have never let us down, but I'm struggling to think of a software developer in recent times with a better track record.

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

Very good OP.  I have thought along the same lines lately but your write up is better than what I could have done.

 

There's somnething that's worrying me in all these good news. Is it even possible to deliver?   **snip**

 

I have also thought of this and IMO there is only one thing that will stop it from happening, the community does not support BOM/BOK financially.  All I can say to those who love WWII flight sims but have not purchased BOM/BOK as they are disappointed in the theater or plane selection or are on the fence for whatever reason, this is your hobby, support it or it may dry up and blow away.

[pilotpierre]

Good post Finkeren and right on the mark.

[J2_Trupobaw]

Gone is the "advanced random mission generator". 

 

That's a part I don't get, as much as I miss having a career I appreciate the "advanced random mission generator" for what it is and don't understand why it isn't kept alongside the career. It's the best for short, casual sorties when you're to busy or to lazy for Serious Involvement of career, tailor made to your preferences - (love Bf-110 as interceptor but not as escort plane? No problem. Love to fly I-16, but only at low altitude? No problem. Feel like flying over snow/grass this time? No problem). It is poor replacement of career mode, but it's great in its own niche and I'll miss it.   

Edited September 24, 2016 by Trupobaw

[ShamrockOneFive]

Great post Finkeren! Agreed! There is a lot to appreciate and the news as of late has been better than ever.

 

That's a part I don't get, as much as I miss having a career I appreciate the "advanced random mission generator" for what it is and don't understand why it isn't kept alongside the career. It's the best for short, casual sorties when you're to busy or to lazy for Serious Involvement of career, tailor made to your preferences - (love Bf-110 as interceptor but not as escort plane? No problem. Love to fly I-16, but only at low altitude? No problem. Feel like flying over snow/grass this time? No problem). It is poor replacement of career mode, but it's great in its own niche and I'll miss it.   

 

You know... I'm kind of hoping for the same. An in-depth career mode will be fantastic but I kind of like the current setup too. The pickup and play piece that Loft was trying to give us and trying to use as a way to get more players into the community does work even if it was disappointing to the community. I'm hoping that either it sticks around in some form or maybe a few more of its features get rolled into the QMB somehow. Really its just a more sophisticated QMB and that's ok.

[F/JG300_Gruber]

Agreed

 

I had a lot of gripes with some of the features of the game, so did the community but I notice that a lot of them are gone, and others are WiP.

So clearly the dev team have a real will to make a great product and work with the community.

Each update comes with a list of improvements, some long wanted, some unexpected, but they are always working hard and I praise them for that.

 

 

There's somnething that's worrying me in all these good news. Is it even possible to deliver?

 

Sometimes I have doubts, but when I see for example how fast was the transition to 64bits completed, while a lot of people was saying that it would still take several months of work, I don't fear much because they have proved to be a very capable team.

Reading the DD and question to devs section, it looks like they have a pretty good idea about what is feasible and what is not, and in what timeframe.

 

I entered the community as a customer with a steam half priced license, but the effort they put into the game have made me a supporter, and whatever they may come with, I will buy, because money seems to be the only weak point of the great plan.

Edited September 24, 2016 by F/JG300_Gruber

[unreasonable]

You know... I'm kind of hoping for the same. An in-depth career mode will be fantastic but I kind of like the current setup too. The pickup and play piece that Loft was trying to give us and trying to use as a way to get more players into the community does work even if it was disappointing to the community. I'm hoping that either it sticks around in some form or maybe a few more of its features get rolled into the QMB somehow. Really its just a more sophisticated QMB and that's ok.

 

I do not like it, as I viewed it as a (poor) career substitute, but I think your idea about including it in the QMB is excellent, since the current QMB  is also weak. (Dogfighting against bombers....?)

 

Ditch the horrible cut scenes etc,  just have the player select from a short chapter description, (which dictates airfields and season), airfield, aircraft and mission type and let it build a random mission. 

[beepee]

Hooray for a positive post (OP)!

 

And cheers to the devs.

 

Edited September 24, 2016 by MF-beepee

[Voidhunger]

Everything the team is doing is perfect this time, the only "bad" thing is that I cant wait so long for the new map, planes, and the new career mode together with the new cool things. They need to work harder and employ more staff.

[Livai]

, that the devs didn't design the campaign mode, unlocks and level system just to annoy us.

 

LoL, remember me DD 5......about the Spirit of ’46

 

15) But what way or how will the BoS be better that original IL2 (including mod) other than graphical and special effects? as it is stated that "Would like to return to the original IL-2 [1946] idea. (LOFT)"

 

When I said "would like to return to the original "IL-2", I didn't mean graphics or physics, I mean only the perception of the players. We would like to make a project that would be difficult and realistic from the inside, but clean and easy on the outside, which you would want to go back and play over and over. We want new IL-2 series to be the reliable and user friendly sim for WWII pilots that delivers much fun.

 

Here we have it. They said this but followed a different path! A clear case of double standards.

 

I believe that the devs made a couple of bad design choices when building BoS back in the day, but they did so with the best of intentions, and uprooting large parts of the design to give the community pretty much exactly what it wants is a bold move that deserves to be recognized

 

LoL, the only who deserves to be recognized are we. Hold the line against the design decision even if it means that the negative comments about the design decision cause the pull the plug.

[unreasonable]

I think Fink's point is that having changed direction, lots of positive feedback from us will be more conducive to us continuing to get what we want than harking on about their past errors, no matter how appalling they were .

[seafireliv]

I guess we should bow down and pray to them now?

 

I`m sorry, but while I appreciate good flight sims, I stop short from sycophancy. They are only Humans. Remember that or you will set yourselves up for disappointment.

[LLv24_Zami]

Great post Finkeren 

 

Good things ahead for this sim but of course they need our support, as a positive feedback and financially. It is a commercial product and it has to make a profit to keep going. People work to get a living, that`s why I`ll gladly pay for this title to go forward. There is no such thing as a free lunch.

Edited September 24, 2016 by Zami

[Finkeren]

I think Fink's point is that having changed direction, lots of positive feedback from us will be more conducive to us continuing to get what we want than harking on about their past errors, no matter how appalling they were .

Actually my point was, that no matter how appalling the mistakes were, they were made in an honest effort to create a good product, and that we should keep in mind how hard it can be to reverse big design decisions, no matter how bad.

 

Praise is of course all well and good, but I think the best encouragement we can give the devs right now is preordering BoK (provided of course, that you actually believe the devs can/will deliver, and think it sounds like a good product) and save the praise for when they start to release BoK content.

I guess we should bow down and pray to them now?

 

I`m sorry, but while I appreciate good flight sims, I stop short from sycophancy. They are only Humans. Remember that or you will set yourselves up for disappointment.

My point was exactly that: The devs are only human and as such they make mistakes, big and small. We should judge them not only on the mistakes they make but also on their ability and willingness to correct them.

 

And of course no one should "bow down and pray". The devs are running a business and we are the customers. If anything they should bow before us, and I think that's exactly what they're doing with the recent announcements.

Edited September 24, 2016 by Finkeren

[dburne]

I too very much agree with the OP.

For the first time since the initial official release of BOS, I am excited and looking forward to the future with this sim.

[Jade_Monkey]

I have to say that of all the games I've played and owned (al lot), these are the devs that have listened and communicated the best with their playerbase.

 

They keep listening and they are open to feedback. Hearing that the players want something different from what you initially built must be really tough.

 

I have no doubt that their efforts will pay off and that the new IL2 will enjoy many years of success as the original did.

[sallee]

Well said, Fink. You've brought me out of the woodwork as well. Some great stuff going on.

[Phantom-103]

Fantastic Post,I really Believe in this Sim and it's Future.

[ZachariasX]

Well they certainly have another darling to kill... But in the light of the great achivements mentioned, no names but thumbs up! The devs surely earn our support!

[216th_Jordan]

The Devs have take a very good direction and I am very Happy that Jason handles this now.

I just really really hope that this spreads out beyond our forum communities here. What we need for BoK are also numbers, people that buy it, and most of those people are not in such a forum. I really hope a little hype train will be rolling closer to its release date, pushing the sales numbers up beyond our small universe here.

Edited September 24, 2016 by 216th_Jordan

[hames123]

I like the fact that we will get a Career mode, but why not have it alongside the campaign mode? The Campaign mode is better and capturing the bigger picture, while Career mode would have one pilot's story. Also, please do not allow reflys, it would only tempt me to cheat.

[=CFC=Conky]

If all our bitching helps them make a better sim, well then giddyup!

[Finkeren]

I like the fact that we will get a Career mode, but why not have it alongside the campaign mode? The Campaign mode is better and capturing the bigger picture, while Career mode would have one pilot's story. Also, please do not allow reflys, it would only tempt me to cheat.

As I understand it, they will keep some of the structure of the campaign mode, including having each theatre split into multiple chapters representing different stages of the campaign, as well as a campaign map with a moving front line. So you really won't be losing the big picture in the career mode either.

 

I also hope they will include a "dead is dead" mode in the career, though I think it should be optional. It'll be so easy to do. Just remove the refly-button.

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 I am glad to see the "not so great" design ideas being thrown out of the window and devs finally focusing their limited resources on the SIM element. Appealing to a wider audience just causes trouble and in this case a lot of lost work on things only very few even wanted or appreciated(pilot levels, fantasy medals, AQMB etc.). A survey before starting a Project could have given better ideas how to focus, not just bluntly saying this is what you get. IL-2 has always been accessible to a wide audience IF they have had even half the brain to use OPTIONS within the game. Anyways..remaining positive about the future of IL-2 series.

Edited September 25, 2016 by LLv34_Flanker

[hames123]

My only wish mow is that I get to see a RAF Squadron and pilot before I go to university.

[unreasonable]

I also hope they will include a "dead is dead" mode in the career, though I think it should be optional. It'll be so easy to do. Just remove the refly-button.

 

The "escape" key is always equal to a refly button, or failing that yank out the internet connection like the MP boys do.  

 

The point of "Dead is dead" in SP is as much about the character test as anything else. You know if you have cheated or not - and nobody else cares.  

[DD_Arthur]

Nice post Finkeren.  Good to see you back here.  I presume the nappy changing situation is becoming less critical too?  

 

Aklthough I'm interested to see what the new campaign will look like I'll be sad to see the demise of the present system.  If you remove the word "campaign" from its description and just view it for what it really is - a random mission generator - then its quite a cool feature in my opinion.  Much more interesting than the QMB we have at present.

 

These missions can be saved, no?  It strikes me that its basically generating ready made coop missions which will be really useful for when we get the coop mde from RoF put into this game.

[Finkeren]

Good to see you back here. I presume the nappy changing situation is becoming less critical too? .

Actually my youngest just started eating real grown-up food (which leads to real grown-up poop), so the nappy changing situation has gone from bad to worse

Edited September 25, 2016 by Finkeren

[Cybermat47]

Actually my youngest just started eating real grown-up food (which leads to real grown-up poop), so the nappy changing situation has gone from bad to worse

 

Hang in there man!

[Rjel]

I've long thought the campaign mission generator we have had would be great as a QMB tool and I hope it stays around. It does generate some enjoyable missions at times.

 

As to the fear all the recent development news will come to naught, I guess there is a chance of failure but so far this team has pulled off some minor miracles IMHO. I see far too much good coming to focus on any negatives. 

[Trooper117]

Just as in real life, I'll give praise when it is due, and with Jason's changes in the pipeline, I'll gladly acknowledge that he and the team are due that praise...

 

Having said that, even before those announced changes, for the last few months there have been gradual tweaks and updates that were pushing the game in the correct direction

 

There are many, many posts in this forum that are saying that ''at last, this is the game that we all wanted at the start''... and that many have returned to the game because of that.

So I find it extremely sad that so much time has been wasted, when right from the beginning, the changes that we now see are to be implemented, were asked for time and again by many die hard IL2 fans...

 

Still, we are where we are, and we can be thankful that things are changing for the better... Hats off to the developers.

[Extreme_One]

... when right from the beginning, the changes that we now see are to be implemented, were asked for time and again by many die hard IL2 fans...

+1 !

 

Many of those die-hard fans were told time and again by certain forum members that they were merely "haters" and didn't know what they were talking about.

 

I'm not sad though, I do find it funny how most of the things those so-called "haters" were calling for are the things everyone is so impressed about for the future.

 

Anyway, the past is the past and now we can look forward to this, hopefully, becoming the game it should have been all along.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Looking at what happened to Cliffs of Dover, I actually really appreciate the way this simulator was developed.

 

Though some moves were unpopular, they really put many years and endless efforts into building the core of the simulator - maps, aircraft, physics, all of the actual in-game stuff. Now that the simulation itself has gotten to a very solid and final level, with only minor adjustments left (DD120, FM minutia et alii), they have embarked on a very comprehensive revamp of all peripheral parts of the game.

 

With a small development team and limited time, this works out great because they can focus all efforts onto making great gameplay for what is already a top notch flight simulator. Given the quality of the simulation itself, and the initial vision they had, one can understand why they went that way - it was a relatively simple campaign mode to create, and an admittedly bare-bones one, but which offered replayability and nice missions. The downside of course is its limited scope and low immersion value.

 

Had they tried to flesh out everything right off the bat, we might have ended up with a half-baked sim and a half-baked classic style campaign, or extended development times which would have killed the franchise (see Cliffs of Dover).

 

I am very happy with the way things are going. They have pushed the current campaign to its limit, laid out a very good foundation of maps and aircraft (both current and future), and are now bringing the new features. For those who were here until now, it might have felt like a long road (I was happy throughout but that's personal), but for the new customer it will be a product with a great career mode, three titles to choose from and a very active and responsive team of developers.

 

Good skies ahead, for sure

[cellinsky]

 

 

You know... I'm kind of hoping for the same. An in-depth career mode will be fantastic but I kind of like the current setup too. The pickup and play piece that Loft was trying to give us and trying to use as a way to get more players into the community does work even if it was disappointing to the community. I'm hoping that either it sticks around in some form or maybe a few more of its features get rolled into the QMB somehow. Really its just a more sophisticated QMB and that's ok.

 

I second that. As much I love to see a carriere like ROF, I hope they keep the current campagne mode in some form. Its perfect for having fun when time is thight or Im in a mood for a particular airplane or mission-type. Good times ahead...Thank you devs.

 

Marcel